spedigrees: Limestone varies in magnesium content. If you go to your local agricultural store--I am not sure what you have up there--and ask for “high mag limestone“--crushed or pulverized--they should be able to direct you. The analysis is always posted on the bag. Dolomitic limestone is generally “high-mag,” but perhaps other types of limestone have a high magnesium content. Our soils here in the northern Shenandoah Valley are very high in magnesium, and high mag limestone underlies a good portion of our soils, and high mag limestone is readily available. And, almost all the NS in this area look very nice, in spite of our hot, dry climate. As for soil acidity--that should not be a problem for Norway spruce, unless the soil is extremely acidic, maybe in the low 4’s. At my timberland, where the soils are a bit below 5, Norway spruce does very well. I am not sure what an optimum pH would be, and it would probably vary with soil type. Maybe somewhere in the 5.5 range is "safe." As for magnesium for Norway spruce--this has been fairly well documented. I titled my original post “a hypothesis,” but there is substantial evidence. A site factors study done at SUNY Syracuse some years ago now, noted that “at least 75 kg per hectare” is needed for good NS growth. Studies in Europe, where there has been extensive decline in NS forests, has shown that the acid rain causes a reduction in the availability of magnesium, and supplementing magnesium often solves the problem. And, I have made some personal observations--not scientific, and without all the facts--that magnesium supplementation can make a dramatic difference. But, the main effect of magnesium may not be in height growth, but in the fullness, density, and lushness of the foliage. I have seen many poor looking, thin foliaged NS trees growing reasonably fast in height. Also, the thin foliage on some Norway spruce trees has causes other than a lack of an optimum supply of magnesium. And, I know, some of that is genetic, and not correctable. As for your experiment: Yes, 5 years should be long enough to show some results, but no sooner. The limestone has to dissolve into the soil, get down to the roots, and, because NS hold their needles for several years, the "thickening" of the foliage may not be vis1ble for several years. BUT, and this is a big "but," the effect may not really show up on very young trees. It may help the growth rate, but as for foliage density, that is never really noticeable until trees are somewhat older and larger--maybe not until they are 20 feet tall or more will any difference be really clear. As for the growth rate: white pine usually starts growing faster than NS. How old are your trees? How tall? NS trees don't begin to grow fast until they are about 4.5 feet high, and that could be only after 6 to 8 years. At that point, they should "take off." On the best soils, and in the right climate, an average of 28 inches is possible, with some years the new shoots elongating up to 4 feet or more. But growth averaging 20 to 24 inches is good for many sites. Norway spruce and white pine, assuming equally good strains, should grow equally well over the first 50 years. The white pine up to about 18 years should outgrow the NS, but after that NS should catch up a bit. After 50 years NS should outgrow the white pine for some years. SUNY Syracuse did a growth curves study for NS, and found that for the first 60 years--after the trees reach 4.5 feet in height, there is no "curve" as such, but a straight line. White pine growth curves bend sharply over to the right after the first 18 years or so, and at 50 years the growth averages about 1 foot, while at the same age, NS trees can still be growing 28 inches per year. But this rate does begin to decline not too long after the 60-year mark. On the best sites both should eventually make 150 feet or more in forest stands. Open grown NS should make 120 feet or more on better sites. As for the blue spruce and magnesium, I really don't know. Tom may be right about this. --spruce

Dave--(or anyone else?): I am really confused by these "weeping" Norway spruce cultivars. You show one picture of a 'Reflexa' that was not staked but is growing erect, then another picture of the same kind of tree that had to be staked. So, does this tree grow erect sometimes, and not all the time? As for the P. abies 'Frohburg' I find confusing statements. You say it needs to be staked or it will grow prostrate. Iseli nursery, and a couple of other places on-line, says it is an upright grower. Elsewhere I see a cultivar name P. abies 'Frohburg Prostrata,' with the 'Prostrata' sugggesting a flopping tree. So what am I supposed to think? Now in the Gotelli collection at the National Arboretum in DC they have two P. abies 'Inversa' trees. Both of these have picturesque irregular habits, but they are definately not prostrate. One, or I think both, have multiple erect trunks growing upright with severely pendulous side branches. I would like to grow one of these, but several sources say they will not grow upright. I have also seen another P. abies 'Inversa,' or so it is labelled, in the courtyard of the Winterthur museum in Delaware. This tree is also growing upright without any staking. And there is another similar tree growing prominently in the National Memorial Park in Fairfax, VA, but this tree has no label at all. I don't know if you have seen my postings in the trees forum under the topic "Large Willow" where I comment on the rampant confusion about golden weeping willows, but I may be even more confused and frustrated in trying to get information about the growth habit of these so-called weeping varieties of NS. I want to grow one or more, but what do I buy? And from whom? Are those I saw labelled 'Inversa' actually something that I can buy as 'Inversa," or is that an incorrect name? And this 'Frohburg' thing? Is there a 'Frohburg' that grows erect, and then another that is 'Frohburg Prostrata' that must always be staked--or which is more properly meant to grow along the ground. Of course, I assume that any of these that are potentially erect growers probably must be staked for a time, but from what I have seen with my own eyes (at the Nat Arb, and at Winterthur, and at the Nat Mem Park), at least one, and maybe more than one of these cultivars, can grow on their own after a period of time being staked, in at least some irregular erect fashion. So, is 'Inversa' one of these? Or 'Frohburg' or what? I have seen them, want one, but what one, or ones is/are it/they?? H E L P!! this is driving me nuts!! --Spruce

You want the best of both worlds built into one conifer. That is not possible with the two you have chosen. Picea a. 'Pendula' has a wondering growing habit. It will grow vertical on the stake as long as on the stake. When it reaches a height you can no longer stake it then the central leader will begin to wonder. It will need more room horizontally to grow then "Glauca Pendula'. The only favorable thing it has going for it is the dark green color you like. On the other hand Picea glauca 'Pendula' will grow straight as an arrow without the stake. It will not wonder and stay very narrow in growing width. A much more formal looking conifer then . Growing height is similar with 'Reflexa' the stronger.. Actually I have two of each growing in different areas of my garden. I would not grow them together. The look would not be appealing with the mismatched growing habit. I have enclosed two photos of 'Reflexa'. 'Pendula' in the nursery trade. This one on the stake only 2 years then left to free range. This one was staked for 10 years but now off the stake. The main leader is now some what unstable and reverting back to its wandering growing habit. This photo is two years old and does not reveal this. And of course Picea glauca 'Pendula'. A true champion growing in any garden. I hope I didn't totally confuse you in your decision making. Both are great focal point conifers. If you decide to mix and match go for it. You are the one who needs to be happy. Dave

Ken thanks for jumping in to assist. I see now that I did not offer enough information so I will answer all your questions 1 by 1. Later on today I will take some photos & post them. I can not right now as it is raining hard. 1. As for the pots. They are the typical black pots that the nurseries use to display the specimens for sale. The sizes of each are listed below next to the description/size of each plant. 2. My location is zone 6a in Pennsylvania between Allentown & the Poconos. 3. About my soil, it is terrible, a mix of clay & pulverized shale, I'm in the Slate Belt area. For all my landscaping I have brought in literally "tons" of enriched topsoil, compost etc. which I have ammended to the planting areas, turning in deeply & well. I have been working on this soil for many years. Right now there is an area in the rear of home (shaded most of the day, early morning sun only) that is ready for planting, drainage would be good & the hose bib is close by if needed. 4. Well if size matters, here goes..... (all measurements taken from where soil & truck meet to top of specimen) Norway Spruce #1 is 3' tall in a black 12"w x 9"h pot. Norway Spruce #2 is 2 1/2' tall in a black 10"w x 9"h pot. Boxwood Spiral is 3 1'2' tall in a 15"w x 12" h pot. 5. When I take the photos later today I will tip these babies out of the pots & shoot photos to show the condition of the roots. 6. Now as for the bargain, the Norwood Spruce were $7.50 ea. & the Spiral Boxwoods were $8.50 ea. At those prices I thought I would give it a try to bring them home & hopefully be able to save them from danger. Even though I am a novice & will follow direction & work hard to protect these guys. My ground is not frozen at this point & I do have a nice shaded area behind my house. I am not sure how you "make sure to keep them dormant", watering, mulching etc in this situation. Any education/input would be greatly appreciated.