Getting Back to hybrid firs, and firs in general--some thoughts: I see that both Gee Farms and Arrowhead Alpines offer a koreana X procera hybrid. Can I assume from this that it is a good plant with some adaptability? Next, Arrowhead has a koreana X alba. Now this is interesting because an Abies alba is growing in the National Arboretum and looks fairly nice, although it is still fairly young--if I remember right about 12 feet tall--and growing in poor soil on an exposed site. So maybe that is worth a try since on the other side koreana so far is doing very well here. Maybe, if I am not just going to try to get everything, I can pass on the cilicica X nordmann because I have both and that may not add much--what do you think? Then I will get borisii-regis, even though, as resin points out, is is not really a hybrid. I am not stuck on the idea of hybrids--I just want some really nice firs. I have never really loved the holophylla--I have one at my timberland place in Weastern MD--Z5. But, here at the Virginia Arboretum, it is such an absolutely vigorous grower, I guess I have to go with one or two of those. By the way, those at the arboretum here are labelled A. nephrolepsis, but, even though I am not a competent fir taxonomist, I assume they are holophylla instead--the needles are sharp pointed, and the trees are very large and not showing any signs of slowing down--about 80 feet tall and growing close to 18 inches per year, and the larger one is over two feet in diameter. Nephrolepsis should not be that big here after 65 years, or ever, right? I read the descriptions of both in my Krussmann, but couldn't make any more observations with any confidence. Dax and anyone else: The National Arboretum in D.C. has both A. firma and A. homolepis. Both trees are medium sized rather older ones, and not really very nice looking--their color is poor and they just look like they are under stress, at least when I have seen them. Both are in the Gotelli collection area where they get some watering and other special care, such as regular mulching. So, so far I have not decided to try those, except for the one homolepis I got from Forest Farm, but in very weak condition--I will wait and see if and how it recovers. If anyone has any reports of how they are doing in a warm Z6 or Z7, I would be interested in reconsidering. I am still trying to find out what I can about some of Dax's other suggestions, such as A. pardei, arnoldia, insignis, squamata and chengii. I have seen the pardei offered somewhere, but not the others. Oh, as for fraser and canaan. I have canaan at my timberland, and they are growing OK, but seem rather thin or sparse foliaged--not really very good looking. I have them in a protected site in rich soil. Now my timberland is at 2,700 feet elevation--somewhat lower, but not far from the canaan valley/mountain. So I thought they would really struggle here in the hot and dry...

here is what i have learned about the wondrous peeps in horticulture ... in the 60's ... they wrote letters to each other .... and typed out single spaced lists of names of plants for sale... if there were typos.. so be it... and probably a source of many of our problems now ... they skipped the entire 70's ... not even bothering to use the phone.. since they were attached to the wall.. and the wall wasnt in the gardens ... along came the 80's... and the computer made making list easier.. but they had their 7 year old grandson/daughter type up the lists.. with all the old typos ... then came the 90's.. and they all had to learn about one of those darned computers.. and hire the 9 year old great grandkid to build a website .... and the typos and improper nomenclature continued .... now they have portable phones.. but cant stand being interrupted all day long.. so they keep turning them off ... since usually no one calls to just say hi ... its always the complainers ... and they dont want to turn on the computer.. because for every order.. there are 200 complaints .... but if you call in the evening ... you cant get them off the phone.. since they spent all day petting their plants.. and now really do need to talk to a real person ... frankly .. some of the questions we have.. will never be answered.. if the initiator of the info has passed to the great garden in the sky .... such are the mysteries of life.. and part of the fun of collecting.. ken

Ken, your probably right. I have a lot of wind and a lot of snow. Its actually pretty harsh, because I live just over the top of a 350' ridge ... and its always quite snowy on this back side of the ridge. I'm not really a guru like many of you probably are ... but I'm trying to get away from what the masses are doing ... which is 75% austrian pine and maybe 20% blue spruce ... very boring. If I had to buy from forestfarm today, I would probably get 4 serbians (my favorite), a weeping serbian, a weeping norway and 1 or 2 hoopsi ... those are my favorites and all within my price range, but not tiny to start with. I know that probably not exotic ... but considering what I said above ... in my neighborhood, it would be a lot of variety. Do you have an opinion on the Bakeri variety of spruce ? Those also might fit my requirement for smaller size and narrower form. I'm particularly interested in those 5 gal. plants from FF ... yes, the shipping is high, but its still a lot cheaper than anything I buy locally (comperable to the hardware store). side note: do you think blue star juniper would do well for me?

Most of the garden centres around here currently have booths set up inside where master gardeners and other green thumbs sit and answer questions. Your space is not that large. I'm sure if you took a couple of photos in and told them what you were after you would get some great advice. The nursery staff can also reccommend appropriate shrubs and trees to help fill your space. You will likely need to widen your beds, but that is something you can do yourself if you're willing and able to do the work of removing the turf and bringing in soil, etc. I'm also planning a new garden and have learned a ton by browsing the forums, checking out books from the library, buying some more second hand, spending way too much money on magazines, etc. :-) Don't be in a rush -- I know it's hard. Take time to think about where your best views are and what most needs to be blocked out. You'll need to either plant quite thickly with larger size plants ($$$) or buy small stuff and be patient. This year, while you take stock, you could gain some fast privacy by using containers to block out the worst offending areas and maybe plant some fast growing vines up trellises, etc. If you plan to be in the house a while, take time to do it right, even though you want the privacy NOW!! This is a pep talk I give myself on a regular basis. :-) I like this site. The person who owns it has a small garden, but has done wonders and has very detailed descriptions and pictures of plants, shrubs and trees he/she likes that have done well. There are many such sites on the web. Generally speaking, you'll probably want to mix some evergreen shrubs with some deciduous ones for interest, then lower-growing specimens in front. Many shrubs can be trained as small trees, which is good for smaller gardens. So don't just think 2-5' when you think shrub. Some are much larger, up to 15' or more. Lilacs, serviceberry, dogwoods, nandina, smoke bush, to name just a very few. Think about what you like, what times of year you want the garden to look best (May, August, etc). PLan some things for winter interest - berries, neat structural plants, etc. What about hardscaping? Raised planter? Extended patio? Additional seating, etc. Spend a lot of time in your garden assessing light conditions, views, try to get a really good sense of logical movement through the garden. What activities would you like to do in the garden, if any, and what sort of space do you need to do that. How much time do you want to spend working in the yard? Do you like to putter with flowers and veggies or do you want low maintenance evergreen shrubs, grasses, etc? These questions might be a PITA, but they really will help you come up with a long term plan and not just a stopgap fix that will annoy you in a year or two. :-) Here is a link that might be useful: paghat's garden