Gardengal, don't feed the trolls. On second thought, feed them the chocolate cake.

IMO, you can never have too much dessert. So an extra cake would not upset me at all and I would serve it along with the others. However, I know not everyone feels the same way so I would not bring any food to someone else's dinner unless I was asked to, or it is a potluck.

LOL!! Elmer is not a troll......he often has something of value to offer. It is just the way it is said - the pontification, the know-it-all attitude and the stating of personal opinions as pronouncements from on high with absolutely no room for compromise or differing opinions that gets my goat :-) It's like a slap in the face that cannot be ignored and I am compelled to respond. Sorry.

Our family gatherings are a bit of a mash up of that, sherry.I never host at my house, but I always make most of not all the food, except dessert, which i do not enjoy making. No one argues with me, as they would prefer that i do the work anyway. It works out perfectly at my moms, for example, as she hates regular cooking and is rather bad at but but loves to bake and make sweets and is excellent at it. When we were younger and all living at home, we would do the whole tablecloth, china, silver thing too, It was nice. (still no potluck!)

Now that everyone (except me) is married with kids,(15 in total) its easier. less stressful, and more fun to do a buffet type thing. I make all the food, and its put on the counter, the table, or the island, depending on whose house it is that the gathering takes place. Grab a plate, fill er up, and find a seat. The kids are easier to deal with that way too. They are not forced to sit, squirming with impatience at the table. They often like to sit together on the floor and eat in one room, sometimes a movie playing, sometimes not.

The responses to my post have reminded me of the very last time i accepted an invite to a private dinner party. I asked if i could bring anything, more out of habit than anything else. The hostess asked me to buy and bring a Honeybaked Ham,and could i please make a pan of macaroni and cheese to go with it? Um, okay. Then, an hour before i was supposed to arrive, she called and asked me to pick up dessert as well. I was appalled, but as i accepted the invitation i did what she asked and went anyway, only to find when i showed up that the menu consisted of the food i had brought, and water. Nothing else. She had not made or bought anything to serve her own guests. She also told me the time was a half hour before it actually started so that the other guests wouldn't see that i had brought the whole dinner. I ended up telling them anyway after the fact, purely out of spite i admit. I have always felt that unless it is an official potluck where EVERYONE brings something, it is rude for a guest to take it upon themselves to bring food, and it is rude of someone who invites someone to dine to ask them to bring food. Wine or Soda? Maybe. Ice? Ok. A small, non food gift. Sure. But not food. But that's just me. That experience, coupled with my growing belief that people in general are icky, have stopped me from attended any dinner parties. I only go to family parties/gatherings.

OMG, amylou! That's crazy! Was this a friend, a coworker, a relative? I can't imagine anyone having the chutzpah to do that.

An coworker/acquaintance really. A friendly one,but not one I would call a true FRIEND, so certainly not one i was happy to provide a whole party for. And a pathetic party at that. Ham, Mac and cheese, store bought pie,and water. I haven't talked to her since that incident,and that was probably 10 years ago. I still remember it. That's how appalled I was.

In my area it is expected that a guest would bring wine or dessert or even an appetizer to be enjoyed during the dinner party. We love food, but don’t take things so seriously.... On the other hand, none of us are Ina Garten!

I had a similar coworker/acquaintance that I learned a lesson from that I'll never forget. HELPING Jane with a project very quickly escalated into DOING Jane's project. Thankfully, I figured it out after one time. :)

I have never had that happen but if it did ,( someone bringing cake, etc without being asked) I would serve it along with what I had planned to serve.

IME, it is far more important that all guests feel welcomed and at ease and appreciated than to adhere tightly to a menu plan!!

THIS!

I would not bring cranberry sauce to a Thanksgiving dinner that was not a potluck. But if someone brought an extra dessert to a meal I would be happy to have it. But I LOVE the above, what's important is that the guests feel good about the meal.

The hostess asked me to buy and bring a Honeybaked Ham,and could i please make a pan of macaroni and cheese to go with it?

Different circumstances, but we had a Thanksgiving get together at my son's house a few years back when their baby was still pretty new, and both of them were exhausted. They made almost nothing. I brought ham turkey pies and stuffing, my ex brought an Italian home made soup, the additional guests had not been asked to bring anything and didn't, it was a wonderful gathering.

I think if someone asked for a bunch of food, my first concern would be their circumstances, and whether they needed help. There must have been a back story to that incident.

Sigh. The backstory was she asked 9 people to dinner,and then asked me to provide it. She wasn't an exhausted new mother,or a mother at all. If she was in dire straights,she wouldn't have sent the leftovers home with the other guests,which she did. Indeed, I can't imagine anyone who "needs help" hosting a dinner party at all. If she wanted to have a party but didn't want to provide it,she should have hosted a potluck. Instead,she tried to pass it off as a homemade (by her) dinner.

Sometimes people are just clueless or tacky. I have accepted that. I wish others would too. Not everyone is pathetic and destitute. She certainly wasn't. She had a full wine fridge in plain view. Her fridge was jam packed. I feel like she just wanted to show off her new home,without having to foot the bill for a party,so she contrived a way to do so. All of the other guests were coworkers as well, and not any friendlier with her than I was. The whole thing was weird.

I was a guest at that meal and didn't feel good about it at all. I felt used and disgusted at her actions.

Reminds me of the old saying, "Come for a duck dinner; you bring the duck!" Astounding what some people pull, isn't it.

So much depends on the level of friendship. I've been invited to dinner at my closest friend's house in the past (when we lived in the same city), and when I asked if I could bring anything, she hesitated and then asked if I could bring a hors d'oeuvre. It was a week night and I know she had been in BOD all day. I didn't mind at all!

Bringing a bottle of wine is fine as a hostess gift, but it should be left unobtrusively on a hall table or such or just given to the hostess with no comment. The hostess should not be expected to serve it at the party. Some people like to bring homemade spiced pecans or a box of chocolates - again, should not expect that they be served. Flowers are also fine but should be SENT ahead of time - a hostess does not have time to do flower arranging when guests are arriving. And don't expect to see them as the centerpiece!

But showing up with side dishes or a 2nd entree - well that's just plain gauche. They would not be invited again, nor would I accept an invitation from them (then I'd have to ask them back!).

To me, "etiquette" is nothing other than the "rules" of social interaction. One cannot play golf without knowing the rules, nor basketball etc. It's really no different. When we all have the same expectations about how things are done, it makes everyone far more comfortable. It has nothing to do with being "stuffy" or "snooty" - it's just knowing the "rules of the game". If one was not brought up to know these rules, then a trip to a used bookshop will result in finding an etiquette book for about $1 or so! Read it and learn! To me, it's a shame that so few parents today teach these fundamentals to their children - it can put them at great disadvantage when they start a career.

Sometimes knowing what to do in a new location is a problem. In Washington DC, if one is invited for 7PM, one arrives at 7PM - not 7:05. In other cities where I've lived, if the guests arrived at 7PM, the hostess might still be getting dressed! In some cities, it's 15 minutes after invited time; in others, it's 30 minutes. One can always ask if one is new to the area - either the hostess or someone else one has already met.

There are innumerable web sites that tell one what to expect and what is expected in various foreign countries. Very useful for business and if being transferred there.

Another party faux pas, again inspired by Ina:

Bringing your kids. She once did an interview in which she shared what she does if her guests decide to bring their children to a dinner party unannounced. She parks them in her den with pb&j sandwiches and a movie.

Do people really do that? We have had people bring other people with them,but never without asking first. It must be a side effect of the "I have kids so the world should be happy to accommodate them and their whims at all times" attitude that has become an epidemic in recent years.

Etiquette are rules designed to make people comfortable with each other. If the particular rule does not work to do that, wing it.

It might have been something as simple as the invitation not specifying "adults only" so maybe they assumed that meant a family party. Though there's no reason why they shouldn't have checked first.

So my husband developed gluten intolerance a few years ago. We have a group of good friends who we dine with regularly. They always make an effort to provide gluten free options, but not really being aware of how gluten is snuck into so many things you’d never expect. So more than once our host has made the effort and point out what is gluten free only for my husband to have a reaction (his is a skin reaction so not life threatening but takes a while to recover from). So now I always insist on bringing at least a dish or two.

gardengal, I think perhaps one of your posts was misread by some. You wrote "I really cannot see what a big deal it is.........my dinner parties are not formal events and I accept graciously if anyone brings anything even though not asked to."

If you had said "...I accept graciously if anyone brings anything even though asked NOT to" I would understand people thinking your family/friends are being boorish or disrespectful of what you requested. But you said 'even though not ASKED to" which of course just means a guest brought something, without having asked and been turned down. That's actually a very common (welcome) tradition, between many families and friends, who do the same.

None of my family members or friends are chefs, and I realize that a chef would of course want to create the entire meal. Likewise, I think we all agree that asking any host, then bringing something after being requested not to, would certainly be a social faux pas. I've never received an entree, nor have I ever received a side dish or dessert that is large enough to serve my whole dinner party. But receiving a complimentary dish or dessert, to be put out as a little extra, or used by my family later, is totally welcome!

Many of my family and friends have very professional careers, so intellectual jousting sometimes occurs during our dinner conversations. But when it comes to eating, no one ever takes umbrage to a food gift, or perceives it as a thoughtless, rude, insult to their host/hostess ability, lol!

Amylou, I sure hope you didn't pay for an actual Honeybaked Ham for that dinner! Those things are expensive. I would've declined. Or bought a canned ham from the grocery store lol. I wouldn't have gone if they then called and asked me to bring dessert too. I would've just said no and said I couldn't make it afterall.

I did. :(

It was expensive,but I thought since I asked,I was obligated. I didn't really know at the time how to say no when I had offered to bring something.

I didn't eat it though. I was so disgusted. Everyone noticed i wasnt eating except for her,who didn't give a hoot. It was the other guests inquiries that prompted me to share what happened and how utterly tasteless she was.

Chi, an invitation should not have to specify "adults only" as the _only_ people invited are those _named_ on the invitation. If the invitation says "John and Mary Smith" then the children are not invited. If it says "John and Mary Smith and children" or "Smith Family" then the children are invited.

Gardengal, I think it's common and nice that some people go by the convention that one should not go empty handed when invited to someone's home for an event. But, the hostess gift should not be something that implies it should be served at the meal, if one is invited for a meal (as the chocolate cake was at Ina's dinner). This is rude, because it implies the host is not up to the task of feeding his/her invited guests. A bottle of wine, a box of chocolates, a plant, a book, anything that's clearly intended for the host's personal enjoyment after the event is fine.

I think Ina's announcement was a sly dig at the guest, and one that was deserved. If someone had brought a cake to a dinner party of mine I'd have served it, but I'd have been annoyed inside and it would be a long time before that person got another invitation, if ever.

I would be happy if someone brought food unasked for and I would serve both with a big "THANK YOU!"

I now never opt to bring wine as a host gift, but choose a small alternate gift instead. The host can always buy their own wine for personal enjoyment, but if there's a chance they don't know all their guests intimately, I don't want my gift to possibly be served, and unwittingly contribute to any other guest's discomfort.

This came about because of my experience with one of my groups of friends, consisting of 3 couples. Eventually our dinner group grew to 4 couples, when one of our friends met the other couple at a convention. She asked if they'd met in their medical practice, and was told they'd actually met at AA. If she hadn't asked that question, she's not certain they'd ever have simply volunteered that they met at AA.

My friend asked the wife if she and her husband are uncomfortable in the presence of people who are drinking. The wife said that she had no problem at all, but admitted that her husband still felt a level of unease with it.

She called me and the other couple, telling us that her new friends were very bright, warm and humorous, and she thought they'd be a wonderful addition to her upcoming dinner party. She explained why she wouldn't be serving alcohol, and asked if we'd be fine with that, especially if they became 'permanent invitees.'

Both couples told her yes, and we met the new couple at the dinner. They were great fun and added so much interest to the conversations, that DH and I and the other couple, both invited them to our dinners as well. They've been 'regulars' now for about 10 years, and we'd all be missing a wonderful friendship, if we'd eschewed their first invite, in order to have our wine. Although we really enjoy a nice wine, we're all happy to go without it during the dinner group evenings, in order to not risk losing the other couple's presence. That's how the 'non alcohol' host gift began with my friends.

Anglo - amen to your comments about etiquette, raised in the deep south etiquette is very important and the backbone of southern hospitality. It used to be common to give a high school graduate a copy of Emily Post. There are still many children raised here being taught common courtesies such as responding "yes, ma'am" or "no ma'am" to a question and how delightful it is to interact with them.

As for the original post, Emily specifies that no matter the faux pas a guest commits, it is correct to make them feel comfortable and be gracious to them. That doesn't mean you ever have to invite them again...

"Southern hospitality" is a loaded term with different meanings to different people, not all positive.

^^ Same as "Bless your heart"? :)

Why bless your little pea picken' heart Elmer. Southern hospitality is NEVER negative. :)

Can we all continue/(leave?) this experience ...

... without feeling overly etiquetted/loaded ... ya figger?

o j

I did a little looking to find something to quote so that the sentiment I was alluding to could be expressed in someone else's words and not my own. Wikipedia yet again provides useful information, here's a quote from that site:

"Southern hospitality is a phrase used in American English to describe the stereotype of residents of the Southern United States as particularly warm, sweet, and welcoming to visitors to their homes, or to the South in general. The term has engendered some controversy due to the connection of related practices to the culture of slavery, and its continued use during periods of both overt and covert racism, and other forms of prejudice."

In my experience, the term has been used by some (not all) in that region as a cloak of hypocrisy to mask unwelcoming and discriminatory conduct no one would describe as open and accepting by whites concerning black co-residents of the area. Maybe it's a misconception of my own but I'm far from being the only person who feels that way. And no, I didn't write those words that appear in Wiipedia so the feeling is broadly held enough to warrant coverage.

What to do. Etiquette wise your responsibility as a hostess is to make your guest feel welcome and happy. Your doing that in no ways takes away from the mistake of taking a dessert to a dinner party. there are parties and parties. If you are invited to a backyard barbeque then more is better. If you are invited to a Dinner Party, not some meal at dinner time, or a general gathering of friends or family for fun and games, but a Dinner Party then bringing a dessert is past tacky and speaks to your upbringing however the hostess cant curse you (except in her heart) or even disparage you behind your back because making your guest welcome trumps the tacky faux pas. A good hostess will not even flinch. I saw a documentary some years ago. Ronald and Nancy Reagan were at a party hosted by the Queen of England. He was a retired president by then. We learned later he already had Alzheimers. When he met the Queen he ask her for a cup of Decaf coffee. She graciously kinked a finger and a person immediately showed up who she delegated to take care of this important need. I have seen this twice. She did not indicate by so much as a lifted brow that this was in any ways untowards. It was masterfully done and a lesson to us all of the perfect hostess. Etiquette informed her. You make your guest welcome. You are free to mentally d#mn their eyes for screwing up your carefully planned dinner. I am sure in this case the Queen thought poor man.

Elmer, incorrect information abounds on Wikipedia - thanks for revealing that that is indeed an entry in need of correction. The first sentence of the quote is correct and stand on it's own, the remaining to total baloney in need of deletion.

Pat - great info about the Queen showing proper etiquette.

I would've gladly served the gift and been glad someone cared enough to be kind. Honestly, I don't understand the territorial behavior towards a meal meant to be shared?

It's cake. Only cake. It would not diminish the meal or it's presentation. If anything it enhanced the ending of the meal.

I would never pass up a meal made by Ina Garten. But that's because she cooks like my grandmother used to, whose food was absolutely delicious. My grandmother wasn't afraid of cooking/baking with lots of butter, sugar and salt, all of which I remember loving. But I now try to avoid using them very much, except for butter and sugar in desserts for special occasions. We don't even use a salt shaker any more, as there are spices that don't contain sodium, that give extra flavor to things that need a little enhancement.

I recall reading that Ina says she's eaten the same Irish Oatmeal for breakfast for 10 years, and puts 'lots of salt in it' as she feels it tastes like paste without it. I'm thinking her home made whipping creams and rich sauces are probably really high sugar and fat content, because they look deliciously decadent....and I'd love them! But am I the only one who thinks her recipes aren't very healthy, especially for people who don't want high blood pressure or high cholesterol numbers?

One doesn't typically eat like that on a 3 meal a day, day by day basis :-) So if the foods are rich or overly fattening, just moderate your intake and offset by eating a lot of fresh, simply prepared veggies. Or save Ina's recipes for special occasions.

FWIW, whipped cream is whipped cream. By definition it is high in calories and fats and there is no way around that as nothing but heavy cream will whip up like that and maintain shape. But it is only used as a garnish in most cases.

btw, a cup of whipped cream - more than double what is normally used as a garnish - is 154 calories, compared to 500 calories for the equivalent amount of ice cream.

"Elmer, incorrect information abounds on Wikipedia - thanks for revealing that that is indeed an entry in need of correction. "

It's true but that's rarely something Wikipedia is accused of. That's the good thing about Wikipedia - any person is free to edit or change any portion of an entry. Changes are subject to moderation and an overriding principle is that information must be presented using a neutral point of view. Do you think this entry was made up or is the product of someone's imagination?

I think the term Southern Hospitality has a dark underside that many have observed. Changing the Wikipedia article doesn't remove this perception of this type of hypocrisy practiced by some because it's a pretty widely held observation and such discussions appear in many places in the internet and the real world.

Up for a snowball fight, anyone?

(O. K. ... so I guess that'd have to be considered ((one type of)) Canadian/((Northern)) Hospitality?)

o j

I've met many lovely people from different states, countries and of course Canadians that had wonderful manners and great hospitality. There are many kind people here on Houzz that are helpful and willing to share their knowledge.

Then there's Elmer, who no matter the quality of his information, it will be ignored purely because of his rudeness. I can't imagine that he doesn't treat people in person even worse than he does here, where we are on our best manners. I do hope that he obtains professional help soon, he must be so miserable being so angry and belligerent all the time.

What I pointed out was the term you used is seen by many as a euphemism for something else. You don't need to agree or disagree.

Thanks for your sarcastic and misplaced concern with my health, that's about as rude a comment as one might make. I'm fine, very happy in my life of family and friends, and always amused (and dismayed) by encounters with narrow minded thinkers.

I think the term is passive aggression.

There is only one narrow minded thinker on here and his name starts with an "E".

" and always amused (and dismayed) by encounters with narrow minded thinkers."

Pot, kettle, black!

Amongst my friends it was always common, indeed, expected that you come with something. I was invited to a gathering where I was (seriously) offered only animal crackers, and another one where I was given ONE mushroom. I haven’t been invited to a lot of meals where someone was at chef level “curating” a meal. I’m vegetarian, so I offer to bring stuff as otherwise I might not eat (I’ve also got a lot of food senstivities and it’s embarassing putting that burden on others). My mom was once berated for bringing a dessert that was too showboaty to a family dinner (dumb, it was really good). The most awkward for me was a birthday for my son where a gluten free family was invited but made no commitment to come, then they showed up with ANOTHER cake that they served in place of the cake I served, it was humilating and stressfull, and yes it did taint that relationship. My inlaws were coming over to xmas one year and we discussed the turkey issue, I usually make one as I feel obligated as the host, they offered to bring one themselves and I said OK. Well they showed up with a utility turkey, missing a leg and 1/4 of the breast and a bale of wonder bread crusts for the stuffing. I could have killed someone that night as I had to serve this monster turkey to a lot of people.

Ok, this is off topic, but can I just quickly say that I love Ole Joyful having his phone and “seeing” him more than once a week?

Thank you, Iris - and I'm enjoying the opportunity.

I've been frustrated a few times by having written a substantial message then touching in the wrong place ... and having Houzz offer to let me add a picture. Several times I was stuck, but was able to get back to my unvapourized message a time or two - buy don't ask me how.

I've hit the little flag at upper right several times, giving me choice of several reasons why I dislike this message.

Wow ...

... what a long thread this has become ... In just four days!

Maybe my arthritic fingers will get more flexible, what with all the letter-choosing and swiping.

Sorry to have added to the highjack of your thread, Amylou.

ole joyful

I am gathering that most people don't do dinner parties. Fair enough. Bring your favorite dessert without asking. Expect karmic consequences.

I am gathering that most people don't do dinner parties. Fair enough. Bring your favorite dessert without asking. Expect karmic consequences.

I think karma is going to be confused here, as some believe a gift of food to be friendship, and others feel it to be a faux pas. I think karma is going to check itself into a psyche hospital if it is expected to rain hell on some good, gentle and generous dinner goer who brought a cake.

I do not think that in the past, (or even now) when times were lean, or in places there was famine, that such a gift would be unwelcome.

" when times were lean, or in places there was famine, that such a gift would be unwelcome."

In such circumstances, I don't think people gave dinner parties as a form of entertaining friends in their home.

"I am gathering that most people don't do dinner parties."

Perhaps that's true for those who have spoken up, I'm not sure if that's true in general. Maybe so, though not true for us or people we know.

A dinner party, (having friends over for the evening, including dinner, rarely more than 6 guests in total), is very different from a family dinner. Maybe that was a source of the divergent views?

I miss old fashioned dinner parties. The fun of planning an interesting menu. Six to eight people at the table max. Nobody asking what will be served. People responding promptly to invitations. No kitchen invasions by guests. Interesting conversation. No cell phones at the table and no television in the background.

Not much fun now with all the challenges of cooking for people with food issues and crazy diets. I really think there are a couple of generations now who haven't the slightest inkling of what guest versus host means.

Yes, Dinner Parties. I used to do them with courses-former life. Casual dinners, family gatherings, people you know really well and know they will welcome your offerings then please bring something though it would be sensible to ask for input as to what unless you always bring your famous mac and cheese. I have a famous Cream cake. I would not bring it to a Dinner Party unless asked of course. This is all about politeness. It is polite to ask. Remember this OP was about an etiquette question. Also remember guest, this is not about you. You are trying to bring something your hostess or host will want and will make them happy and that could be just your own sweet self. I am not being critical of people who always bring food but be aware you might have been stepping on corns for years though probably not since as I said I don't think most people do Dinner Parties. The opposite is like being Hyacinth in Keeping up Appearances and her candle light suppers, you the dinner giver could be giving people palpitations when you invite your friends to a Dinner Party.

An ancient Roman author, Marcus Terentius Varro (who also invented the saying, “What is sauce for the goose, is also sauce for the gander) said, “The number of guests at dinner should not be less than the number of the Graces nor exceed that of the Muses”, i.e., it should begin with three and stop at nine.

It’s not a bad rule of thumb :-)

A proper dinner party says, “I would like to cook you the best meal I can provide.” (Note that this doesn’t mean it has to be Ina Garten level cooking or filet mignon, just that _you_ will put much love and care into the meal.) You plan things that go together or contrast well. Creamy main? Not creamy dessert, or vice versa. Lasagna? Probably not potato salad as a side then. Etc.

When guests bring random dishes with them even though you have said, “Don’t bring anything,” the subconscious message from the guest is, “I don’t think you are capable of providing a nice meal all by yourself.” And their random dish may not go well with the planned meal. But the gracious hostess has to suck it up and let her careful plan be upset by discourteous guests.

So take a hostess gift by all means, or send flowers before or after the event, but if the hostess says, “Oh no, just bring yourselves”, believe her.