I was five nad dont really remember awhole lot but I do remember being scared..my BM took us to a shelter, and I remember it smelled funny and I just wanted to go home...
(she was not abused but claimed to be..that would be a whole nother thread lol) We were in hiding from my Dad (an awsome/innocent guy) for about 6 mos

I was about 14 when my parents divorced- it was a huge relief to me and something I had been looking forward to for years. My father (not my BF as both my younger brother and I were adopted as week-old babies) was an alcoholic and abusive. The day my mother kicked him out was a red letter day for me. Unfortunately it was not early enough to save my younger brother, who using AF as a role model has become a man who is into substance abuse and verbal/emotional abuse of his wives.

Since you are using this thread to criticize MY child, I get to post here too. All of my children (except the toddler of course) told me that they were shocked when their father left - the divorce was a complete surprise to them as well. It was only after he left that everything fell into place for the older child. We did not often argue; we were house hunting two days before he left; the kids and I thought he was putting in a bit of overtime. He was home every evening, but about once every few weeks or so he would have to "work" on a Saturday. Little did I know that the affair was taking place primarily on long lunch hours, etc., at times when he normally would be at work. The only people who should have been suspicious were his boss and coworkers.

What child suspects his or her father of cheating every time he works a little overtime, anyway?

You have NO RIGHT to claim that my child's world did not fall apart or that she couldn't have been surprised. Of course it fell apart. Just because you apparently didn't care doesn't mean that my children didn't.

Telling a younger child that their father is cheating isn't what is devastating - the fact that he was cheating and then deserted the family was what was devastating. You are just shooting the messenger.

TOS, I am not using a thread to criticize YOUR child. I am asking others to share their experience from a child's perspective. YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!! You can say your child said this or felt that, but you are not your child. Sorry.

I didn't say your child's world didn't fall apart, I said that I think your oldest was wrong and selfish to share that information with younger siblings and I stand by that. If he was so devastated, it is common sense that a younger sibling would be more devastated to hear it from big brother. I also said "I disagree that **a child's world falls completely apart** unless the child is living such a sheltered life that they think their entire life is perfect" and perhaps your children were so sheltered and maybe you were too. Usually, there are signs when someone is cheating and if he was that good of an actor, then I'm sorry for you. But, in most cases there are signs a marriage is in trouble and usually, the spouse is the first to know. Sorry if that wasn't your case, but that is why I posed the question to children of divorce. We've already gotten your 2 cents on YOUR situation. You have adult children and they are welcome to sign up and post to the thread, since they lived it.

I was ten, and knew that something was up for some time before they told us that they were divorcing. I wasn't surprised when they told us, and wasn't very emotional about it right away. I'd thought it all out and had even thought that it might be exciting. After all I'd heard and read about kids who did all sorts of neat-sounding things with their dads on the weekends. I was, however, convinced that the reasons they'd given us for the separation were bogus.

And they were, of course. I overheard my father and his girlfriend talking about a trip they'd taken together quite awhile before the separation. My parents had focused on a decent moral upbringing-- the wrongness of lies, disloyalty, selfishness, all the kinds of things I think most people want their kids to internalize. The fact that my father, one of the two people responsible for that teaching, went so profoundly against everything he said made me furious.

I didn't tell anyone what I knew, but that level of anger definitely changed my behavior with him and with anything related to him. I couldn't let it go, and I refused to explain myself.

I don't think you can say "that was wrong and selfish," or "that was right and unselfish," when it comes keeping or spilling the secret of a parent's infidelity when you're a child or a teenager. I know that in my own case, the emotions were so blindingly strong that there didn't seem to be any choice in it. My reaction was to bottle up the knowledge, which I don't think was a very good reaction... but I'm not sure that there was or is a "good" reaction in some situations. Sometimes there are no winning moves.

"I also said "I disagree that **a child's world falls completely apart** unless the child is living such a sheltered life that they think their entire life is perfect"

There is a huge difference between "my entire life is perfect" and "my father has to work overtime...hmm.. he's probably cheating." What possible reason would a child have for not believing their father when he said he was working overtime?

I have heard stories of people coming back from wonderful 25 anniversary cruises during which their spouse told them frequently how much he/she loved them, and having the spouse walk out, of guys going out for cigarettes and never coming back, for that matter of that woman recently who went on "vacation" and never came back and moved to England and became a romance novelist. It is very common for the children and even the spouse to have no clue. If people can hide the fact that they are serial murderers from their family, why would it be surprising that they can hide the fact that they are cheating from their spouse and children - there aren't even any dead bodies to worry about (usually).

I am a child of divorced parents, and I agree with this (from sovra):

I don't think you can say "that was wrong and selfish," or "that was right and unselfish," when it comes keeping or spilling the secret of a parent's infidelity when you're a child or a teenager. I know that in my own case, the emotions were so blindingly strong that there didn't seem to be any choice in it...... but I'm not sure that there was or is a "good" reaction in some situations. Sometimes there are no winning moves.

In my case, when my dad told me he wanted a divorce, my mother had no idea my dad was thinking about divorce. I didn't tell my mother, but yes, I told my younger brother. I certainly don't think it's wrong or selfish for one sibling to tell another, and I don't see how anyone outside the situation can make that judgment.

And yes, our world (my brother's and mine) did feel like it was falling apart. It was not a relief to us. And yes, we were shocked. Were there warning signs? Yes, there were some warning signs. But were there warning signs that the problem was that deep? No, not at all. We were absolutely stunned to find out about my father's infidelity and most of the other issues he had. Some people are very, very good at hiding things.

I totally disagree with this statement: I disagree that **a child's world falls completely apart** unless the child is living such a sheltered life that they think their entire life is perfect and can't see parents have arguments or that one parent isn't home like they should be and the other parent is upset. It would surprise me to find out that children would be shocked or completely surprised to find out their parents were divorcing (or one was cheating, etc.)

We were not sheltered. Also, my dad was always home when he should have been. His work schedule had some flexibility, so he was always home at his normal times. My dad was amazingly good at hiding things.

My father did not divorce my mother for a "good reason". I didn't think that at the time, and I think that even more strongly now, 26 years later.

Daisy,

Your story seems a lot like what my DD would say. What advice could you give me, as her mom, to help her feel better.

I'm sorry, I don't have any advice to give you to help her feel better. I wish I did.

My mother was very up front about what happened. She didn't tell us our dad was awful, but she did tell us the truth about what was going on. She didn't exaggerate and she didn't sugarcoat or sweep it under the rug, she just told the unadorned truth. That turned out to be the best thing for my brother and me.

I think I read on a different thread on this forum that a step parent said she found the best thing was just to tell the step kids what was going on - that way the children were better prepared. I think that step parent was referring to telling step kids why there was no money, because birth parent hasn't paid child support. Anyway, that's the way I feel about my mom and what she told us - my brother and I were better prepared for the aftermath because we knew the truth.

If your daughter feels that her world has fallen apart, I am so very sorry and my heart goes out to her. My mom was real with us - we saw her sad, we saw her grieve, she didn't pretend that everything was hunky-dory. But she was always there for my brother and me, and she rebuilt her life. She has been a wonderful example to me that even if our lives crumble around our feet, we can pick up the pieces and rebuild. But that perspective came to us (my brother and me) over time, it just didn't happen overnight or in a couple of years.

I'm sure there are many cases where the children are relieved to find out their parents are divorcing - maybe the fighting is so bad or there is some type of abuse or mental illness, and the kids are just happy to know it's over. But that wasn't the case in our family.

I was 12 when my parents separated, 13 when they divorced. My dad cheated, my mom has issues with depression that can make her difficult to live with, they got married and started a family WAY too young, the list of reasons is probably pretty long. I didn't exactly *know* at the time that my dad had an affair, mostly because I was pretty niave and sheltered for my age, so the thought is just not something that really occurred to me at that time, but I had all the information (dad spending time with his female "friend" etc) that when I got older and less niave, it was obvious that it had happened. As an adult, I had a conversation with one of my brothers that he had actually seen my dad and his "friend" kissing. I think the affair was ended quite some time before the separation. I did know my parents weren't happy, and hadn't been for a while. I wasn't exactly *expecting* the separation, but I wasn't surprised by it either. I never thought it was temporary, although in their minds, I think it was supposed to be a trial (and that's what they told us). When they told us they were going ahead with the divorce, my thought was pretty much "well, duh".

For a long time, I thought the divorce was definitely a good thing, and by the time they actually got around to doing it, it probably was; I watched my mom, (who married at 17 and had 3 children by 21), gain independance and individuality as her own person separate from being just my dad's wife and our mom and think she was probably a much better mother and role model (and, in the long run, happier) for having done so. I see my dad and stepmom as being a much better match for each other than my dad and mom. And I don't think us kids were particularly impacted in any negative way by the divorce-- in large part because making sure we maintained good relationships with both parents was a priority for both of them (and for my SM when she came into the picture). I have no doubt it was hard on them, but they did everything they could to ensure it wasn't hard on us.

As I've gotten older and more knowledgable about relationships, though, I'm not so sure they couldn't have worked things out differently. I think a lot of the problem was that they got married so incredibly young, then my dad went on to grad school while my mom became a SAHM with a HS education, they just grew into completely different people... had they made a more concerted effort throughout the marriage to grow together, maybe they could have. I don't think it would necessarily have been better or worse for us kids, but it might have been better for them to not have to go through a divorce. Of course, we are talking about people who intentionally started a family when mom was teenager and dad was an undergrad, so it's probably not realistic to expect them to have recognized that kind of specific effort was going to be necessary. And it's certainly not fair for me to second-guess the mistakes they made when they were young and stupid... the mistakes I made at that age were a whole different genre, but I definitely made my share. I don't have much respect for my dad for having the affair, it was certainly the wrong thing to do, and certainly hurt my mother, but I think the marriage was far enough gone by that point that it would have ended even if he hadn't.

I was quite young when my parents divorce, only 3 years old. I remember the night they split very well, but I think I was too young to really have serious upheaval from it.

What I do remember, is that I had a fabulous childhood. My father had cheated on my mother, and she had left him because of it, but she never spoke ill of him, or my stepmother ( he married TOW). I was encouraged to visit EOW, my paternal grandparents stayed very involved in my life and helped financially, and even though my mom was forced out to work at a low paying job because my dad wouldnt pay support ( back then it wasnt enforced), I never felt unloved or unwanted, or abandoned. I had extended family around that made my childhood a time of happiness. I didnt like my stepmom at first, but I didnt dislike her either. I avoided her.

THis past week, my dad was in the final stages of lung cancer. I flew home to Canada and was with him the last few days, until his death. We had a chance to talk and heal old wounds, and make peace with the fact that I didnt have a dad around while growing up. Over the years, I had come to see my stepmom for what she is...the BEST person out there for my dad, much better than my mom would have been. I grieved with her. We may never be really close, but we certainly care for, and respect each other, and have since I became an adult more than two decades ago.

I think the biggest upheaval to my life was financial in nature. My moms life certainly was impacted badly, but mine didnt suffer that much. I do have regrets that I didnt know my father better as a child, but because everyone, mom, dad, stepmom, extended family, all worked together to keep it civil, and all loved me, the impact was minimal.

I can see it would be harder for an older child, or a child who is caught in the middle of warring parents though.

Wow you certainly were very lucky to have had such a nice childhood and remain fairly unscathed from the situation. Too bad it can't always be that amicable (except for the non payment of support that is). I'm sorry for the loss of your father.

~Cat

I was 9 when my parents got divorced, my sis was 10, my bros were 4 & 14. It was no shock, though it had never been discussed, and was not an acceptable practice in my parent's families, or with their church/religous beliefs. It was, however, for the best, for all concerned, as my father was abusive to all. It did not ruin/shatter etc our lives, it merely changed it. Life is full of change, some we can control, some we can't. This was just another form of change within our lives, that we couldn't, as children, control, so like other changes (new home, new school, new family members) we adapted to the change. I am EXTREMELY grateful my mother had the courage and strength to leave my father, and set a positive example for myself & my siblings...it was the greatest gift she ever gave us, after life itself!

Life is full of change, some we can control, some we can't. This was just another form of change within our lives, that we couldn't, as children, control, so like other changes (new home, new school, new family members) we adapted to the change. I never thought of it this way before, but I wonder if this has something to do with why some children have more problems with divorce than others. I had probably lived in at least 10 different houses and was on my 6th school (heck, I went to 2 different kindergartens) when my dad moved out, so, yeah, it was just another change. I wonder if the upheaval is more difficult to deal with to a child whose life has been pretty constant vs if you've already learned to roll with new homes, new neighbors, new schools, new friends, etc.

Quirk - that is very possible. I'm a Navy brat, so by the time I was 9, I had been in as many schools, so change was something we expected on a regular basis.

dogdog,

From what I understand the armed forces try to accomodate moves. And the other children know they could be the next new kid. It is not quite the same. I made every effort to keep my DD in the same school, First grade through 12. It hasnt been easy.

My parents are not divorced. But there was time in our lives when we, my brother and I, wished they got divorced. My brother told my mom, he was about 13-14, you guys have to get divorce. my mom was shocked. Their relationship got better over time, dad mellowed down. no affairs, substance abuses etc, my dad is just very type A, difficult person to live with. i am glad though they never got divorced, their marriage is fine now. although dad can still be a pain. ha

When I and X got divorced DD was too young (around 4) to be devastated by it, she does not remember much. In her perception it feels like we were always divorced, she has no memory of us living together. Although this summer we had to go somehwre together to some DD's event in the same car, I, DD and X. And DD's said: wow it feels so nice having both mom and dad in the same car together. Both i an X looked at each other, we both felt sad. Our kid does not even remember us together. We are always these separate beings for her. divorce is sad, no matter what age kids are, they are effected by it.

DD's brother (8) however was completely devastated and horrified when X left his mother (Dd's SM1). He had a very very hard time wiht it. And yes he knew that X left for TOW. It was hard not to know. he moved in with TOW right away. i also suspect that SM1 told him more than he needed to know.

I know plenty of people who had no clue parents could possibly divorce. some people keep it all very private, and hide well.

I guess perhaps I am breaking the guidelines but I think it completely impossible to say these people act this way after their parents divorce. For example my ss once told me in the wee hours of the morning...after staying up way to late chatting... that "in make believe I kind of wish mom and dad didnt get divorced but then they would still be fighting and I am sick of that... things are so much better now"

KKNY - what the armed forces does now, and what they did 40-50 years ago is probably two completely different issues. My parents also did not typically live in base housing, but would find a local community that had a church for them to attend. Trying to compare the types of changes is just like comparing apples & oranges, both are fruits, but very different. Our house was always full of many kinds of changes, and learning to adapt to change is a life skill that will be used when future changes occur.

How often have you heard of empty nesters, either divorced or widowed, falling in love and marrying and thinking to yourself, "how fabulous and how perfect?" After raising a family, its now their turn to experience the dream relationship where they can focus exclusively on each other and nurture their marriage without having to worry about raising each otherÂs kids. Younger couples with kids, who remarry, face the typical blended family stressors of co-parenting responsibilities, transitioning kids, dual household finances, stepsibling rivalry, and ex spouse issues, all of which dilute the energy of the adult relationship and leave little time for the couple to nurture each other.

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ThereÂs no substitute for reading the book, but a close second is to join us on an Ask the Experts interview with Grace Gabe and Jean Lipman-Blumen on September 30, 9 pm EST. If you canÂt be on the call, submit your very own question to the authors by logging on to:
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"Theres no substitute for reading the book, but a close second is to join us on an Ask the Experts interview"

I thought posters were not allowed to market products on this board. This appears to be a sales pitch from someone who stands to make a profit from sales of this book.

"After raising a family, its now their turn to experience the dream relationship where they can focus exclusively on each other and nurture their marriage"

why "exclusively"?

btw, I have read "Step Wars", and I found the language to be quite skewed and insulting towards adult stepchildren, who are in virtually every context subtly and at times not-so-subtly painted as the bratty and inappropriate (and even irrational) "menace" to the idyllic-but-besieged new marriage of saintly parents and step-parents who are not described as having any irrational or inappropriate or hostile feelings of their own. There is actually very little in the book that acknowledges the emotions and issues adult stepchildren face when their parent remarries in any truly empathetic or meaningful way. They are described as having a "hostile" attitude and their potential "list of grievances" is laid out more with a goal of "know thy enemy" than with genuine understanding. Numerous examples are cited of inordinately rude, immature, jealous and inhospitable adult stepchildren but there is absolutely no example cited of, say, the sort of new step-parents who throw out a deceased bio-parent's ashes, abolish contact with former family members of their new spouse (including adult stepchildren), marry for money or any other such unfortunately-quite-common menace faced BY adult stepchildren. It is quite obvious that the book was not written by an adult stepchild but rather by individuals who have "had to face the furies" as parents/step-parents in a remarriage. Which is fine, as their persepctive, if this is made clear instead of touting the book as "for the whole stepfamily". It's not "fair and balanced", shall we say, and would have been much better to either declare itself "for parents and step-parents of adult stepchildren" or to present unpleasant scenarios faced by BOTH sides of the equation, not just one. This makes me very sad because I've done quite alot of research online and in libraries trying to find truly supportive literature from the adult child's perspective and have found scarce little. On the whole, it's profoundly invalidating.

Back to the original topic of this thread, I want to make another point regarding whether or not an affair (or the 'whiff' of suggestion of 'technical' infidelity, as in dating before divorce is final) is relevant to children of divorce. I'm not saying that it's the SAME people (b/c I honestly have lost track), but does seem at times that some people feel a need to describe their current spouse's ex first and foremost in terms such as "she cheated on him and left" or even "one night stand" as indicative of some kind of character trait that has bearing on the current situation (or even the 'real' legitimacy of the child as spouse's)... but at the same time if the tables are turned, the past cheating is to be glossed over and everyone's supposed to "get over it" because it's not supposed to affect anything. There have even been comments to the effect that hopefully the kids will see what a bad or less-than-moral influence the other parent is... at the same time deep offense is taken at other parents who tell their kids "the truth" about the other. That it's unconscionable for the other parent to say anything less-than-flattering about the other or for anyone to hold grudges (even as grudges are being held). In a nutshell it can seem, depending on where one stands, that the OTHER parent is to be judged and has a sketchy past that continues to be relevant and which THEY should be judged by but one's own past is to be forgotten and "evrybody needs to get over it". Now picture yourself in the kids' shoes when BOTH parents are taking that stance as regards the other. Whom do you believe? Whose past is relevant and whose isn't? What should be remembered and what should be forgotten?

I am an adult step child and my husband's parents are still happily married. I do not understand what is meant by "the emotions and issues adult stepchildren face when their parent remarries in any truly empathetic or meaningful way."

I was 17 when my dad remarried and even then, I believed as I do now, it's HIS life. While I wasn't an adult, I have never understood why grown kids feel they have any right to butt into their parents' lives. Whether I liked my dad's choice in who he married, it was HIS choice. Personally, after growing up, I realized his first choice in wives (my mother) was not a good one. She was an alcoholic that cheated on him, but because she's my biological mother, I am supposed to honor her and love her and if he married another woman that I don't like (or that doesn't like me), does that give me a right to butt into his life?

Adult children are not entitled to their parents ashes... Adult children are not entitled to anything unless their parent chooses to leave it to them. That is what wills are for. It's very easy to say it's a step parent that 'abolishes' contact, but unless the parent is physically incapable of picking up a phone and dialing, the parent is choosing to not contact. If a parent chooses to leave everything to their spouse, it's NONE of the child's business. (unless the parent is mentally incapable of making a decision) But it's easier to say the parent was coerced by a step parent.

As an adult step child, I find the examples of 'menace' that you say adult step children are faced with utterly ridiculous. Adult step children are adults and should have their own life and stop worrying about things that are none of their business. Like I said, my husband's parents are still together and if they decide not to call him on a special occasion or maintain regular contact with him, who's he going to blame? If they leave all their money to a neighbor that checks in on them everyday instead of their son that only calls them every couple of days, that's THEIR business. My parents are divorced and I talk to my dad just about every day. If he doesn't initiate a call, I call him. If he doesn't answer or call me back, that's HIS choice. My mom isn't remarried, yet she rarely calls me and only visits when I host a gathering. I guess she should get remarried so I have someone else to blame, instead of the reality that SHE makes the choice to call and visit when SHE wants.

Those that are parents may have a better understanding than an adult stepchild that doesn't have children yet. Once you have children, you may realize that it's the parent that makes the choices that affect the child. As a parent, I make a choice in how much involvement I want with my children... when they were little, and now that they are grown. Whether my husband gets along with my kids or not (and they've had their problems), it is still up to ME to keep my relationship with my children alive and if that doesn't happen, it's because either me or my children or both are not doing what we need to in order to have a good relationship. It's not going to be my husbands fault, no matter what my kids think. (and yes, they'd blame him... just like lots of other adult stepchildren would rather blame the stepparent than to blame themselves or their own parent)

As regards the differences between you and some other adult stepchildren (including me), perhaps some of that can be explained by the possibility that you probably had nothing but good or decent experiences with your stepmother, whereas some people just don't. And that simply, some individuals are nicer than others or more understanding, empathetic or cooperative, no matter what their role (SK, SM, BM, BD...). Sometimes step-parents really are jerks (I forgot to add in my earlier post the possibility of a stepfather who comes onto his adult stepdaughter, which unfortunately also happens quite frequently, and there are many other examples). Sometimes it;s all the bio-parent's fault who married 'em, but sometimes these "adults" are perfectly capable of being jacka$$es on their own. Just like I'm sure there are adult stepchildren who are mean nasty people as well. Like any other adult who is expected to take full responsibility for their behavior, yes, a step-parent CAN, among other people in other roles in life, be a jerk and do crappy things. And they cannot always hide behind their spouse. That was my point regarding "Step Wars": 'menace' is possible, depending on the individuals, in eevry single role in a step-family, which I felt the book failed to evenly address.

And Ima, I guess when it comes down to it, some of the things you think are none of a person's child's business I just plain disagree with. In that regard, "never the twain shall meet", as they say...

My stepdaughter gets really upset when her mom doesn't answer her phone or when she doesn't call or call her back. She also blames her mom's boyfriend... and in some ways it IS the mom's boyfriend that may keep mom from calling or answering her phone. No, I don't think he is physically taking the phone away and controlling it. No, I don't think he controls her mom in any way. The mom has made a choice that spending time with her boyfriend is more important than calling her daughter. How do I know this? Because her mom has her own cell phone and can call when she wants and answer when she wants and does. Her boyfriend is at work all day and isn't there to **prevent** her from calling SD after school. Yet, mom has time to go to coach her boyfriends kid in baseball and several times, tells SD that she can't talk, she'll call her back because she is coaching, getting things ready for a game or has to get to the field. Mom is making a choice to put BF and his kids before her own kids. But, a child doesn't want to be angry at mom or accept the reality that mom isn't choosing 'her', so she blames BF and sometimes she blames me. That doesn't make it reality, only to her.

Ima, I feel for you that you had a mother who battled alcholism and other issues. But your situation isnt universal. Yes I do believe that there are some (not all, but some) women who will marry a man for money, status, etc., favor her own children, and try to cut off contact. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt. In our society, many times it is the woman who is in charge of social and family committments. People here sometimes talk of partnership arrangments -- if so, SM may be in charge of dinners, etc.

Serentiy I feel for you.

I am saying that things that are none of my husband's business while his parents are still married, do not become his business if they were to divorce. It IS a child's business who his/her parents meet, date and marry when they are young children and may have to live with or visit. They may not have a choice in the matter, but it IS their business.

But, when children grow up, they meet their own partners and it's none of the parent's business who their children choose. Of course they can have an opinion, that goes both ways, but it doesn't make it the parent's business if the child does what they want, even if they know the parent doesn't approve. I would hope that in that case, most parents would hold their tongue/opinions to themselves and be nice to their child' partner for the sake of their child. I know that doesn't always happen and it can cause estrangements. That's always sad to me, but there does come a time in life that the child is no longer a 'child' but is an independent adult that makes their own choices in life, including partners, jobs, where to live, how to live, etc. and the parents, whether they agree with it or not, have no say and it really isn't any of their business. There should also be a point where the parents are free to live life without having to answer to their children and those same things are none of the children's business. It's one thing to have feelings or opinions on something and another to think it's your business and feel entitled to do something about it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on a few things. But, I am also a parent that is married to my kids stepparent, who is sometimes blamed for MY choices. I am a stepparent that is blamed for things not under my control. and I am a step child that hasn't always had 'good' experiences with my stepmom, but I also recognize that she is not responsible for my dad's behavior. She was responsible for hers... but not my dad's, even if she tried to (or successfully) influenced him. He's still responsible for what he did/does.

Ima, in that story I can see your point from the facts you've stated that the mom is the prime person on which the responsibility lies. But if we were to find out additional facts such as the BF *DOES* take the phone away, or *HAS* attempted to manipulate the situation by, for example, pouting or pitching a little fit or witholding sex every time mom gets off the phone with SD or saying things like "I don't want your SD calling", then the responsibility would be more independent variables. Yes, the mom is making the decison to call SD or not, and has control over that decision. But it would equally be the case that the BF was being a jerk (in my opinion, anyways), even if he wasn't totally successful at his attempts to limit the phone calls. Because sometimes the control (or the attempted control) CAN be more subtle than simply grabbing the phone away. I guess what I'm saying is that just because the mom may find ways to resist or ignore the pressure BF lays on, he would (again, in my book) still be guilty of being a jerk regardless. In the absence of evidence, though, it would be wrong in this case to pin the blame on BF, I agree.

I think it's a difference between "my business" vs. "my control". Meaning I feel like something can be very much "my business" without me expecting to have control, or even "veto power" over it. So I guess my definition of something being "my business" is "something that affects me and/or something about which I would naturally have feelings and/or which would require me to make some sort of adjustment." For example in my case, even though by now everyone on this board knows that my SM is not my favorite person on this green earth, I would never even begin to think that I had a right to tell my Dad that he "can't" marry her, or even that I "disapprove", or TELL HIM to do or not do anything. That would be control. But I do feel like I have a right to have certain feelings and concerns, some of which I may even share with him if he asked, but which I would never have the EXPECTATION ----only the hope--- that he would take them into consideration. That's if I even bothered to share the concerns with him directly, which I have only done a couple of times (about anything!), after being directly asked by him to do so. I choose this level of deference and respect because of the particulars of my situation, but plenty of other adult stepchildren are more direct because their situation warrants that. It's a matter of choice for me to refrain from sharing my feelings/concerns as much as possible with my Dad, but not because certain things in his life aren't my business.

I agree that some adult chidren take "my business" too far to mean they have a right to tell their parent who they "can" and "can't" marry, and I don't agree with that. It is still the kids' business, but they are then making a choice to PUSH "their business" too hard. After all, it isn't ONLY their business, and that's where I think the more inappropriate boundary-crossing takes place, because they expect things to go their way EXCLUSIVELY.

I'd welcome any mother or father here to share what they would do if their partner (or anyone for that matter) tried to cut off contact with their child or exclude their child. Yes, SM may be in charge of planning a party and not invite dad's kids. Is dad so spineless that he'd allow his wife to exclude his children? Would he go and have a good time while his children resent SM for not inviting them? Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world where parental instinct is strong enough that parents would 'fight' any outside sources that would keep them from their relationships with their kids. Of course, I was raised with a strong belief that family is valued. I can't imagine that I would allow anyone to come between that.

My sister didn't like my stepmom and for my dad's birthday one year, she planned a party for dad. She planned it while our stepmom was at work so she couldn't go. She made no secret that she was excluding my stepmom to the rest of us but kept it secret from dad. Well, it didn't take dad long to figure out what she was doing and he let her have it. He told her if any of us EVER excluded his wife from a family event/gathering, that he would exclude himself. He would not tolerate us treating her that way and he would not tolerate her treating us that way. Who knows if she ever tried, but we were never excluded. I know my dad would not have stood for that. It is heartbreaking when a parent does let that happen and I don't think much of a parent that backs down and lets someone else interfere in their relationship with their children. Yes, stepparents can be jerks, people can be jerks and should take responsibility for what they do, but it's ultimately the parent's responsibility to their children. They are the parents.

It's like blaming TOW/TOM for a spouse cheating. The spouse made the vows to be faithful to the other spouse. Of course TOM/TOW are not without fault if they knew he/she was married, but the one that owes their fidelity to their spouse, is the other spouse.

Yes, I think you are living in a fantasy world. Yes, there are a lot of parents (more fathers than mothers, I am reasonably sure) who are so spineless that they would allow their spouse to exclude their children. Sometimes the new spouse is able to convince them that they children don't want or need contact with the father. Sometimes these parents will do anything to avoid conflict with their spouse. Sometimes they feel that they don't deserve their children, or that the children are better off without them in their lives - especially when convincing themselves of that makes their relationship with their new spouse so much smoother.

you speak from personal knowledge, correct?

"Yes, there are a lot of parents (more fathers than mothers, I am reasonably sure) who are so spineless that they would allow their spouse to exclude their children. Sometimes the new spouse is able to convince them that they children don't want or need contact with the father. Sometimes these parents will do anything to avoid conflict with their spouse. Sometimes they feel that they don't deserve their children, or that the children are better off without them in their lives - especially when convincing themselves of that makes their relationship with their new spouse so much smoother."

I agree. The spineless parents that allow their children to be excluded are no less at fault because they are spineless. They are MORE at fault for BEING spineless. If a new spouse can convince them of anything that interferes with their relationship with their children, IT IS STILL THE PARENT'S FAULT, not the stepparent. Yes, the stepparent would be a b*tch/a$$hole but that doesn't alleviate the parent from being the one that is at fault for not having a relationship with their children. In this scenario, the parent is choosing to cut out kids to make marriage smoother rather than stand up for their flesh & blood. (and when it comes to adult stepchildren, the children also have some responsibility to have a relationship with the parent. otherwise it would be very possible for the parent to be convinced the children don't want or need a relationship with them) If the children are calling and asking to spend time with dad, I would find it hard to believe that dad would feel that they don't want or need him in their lives.

They both are at fault. When you marry someone with children, it is your responsibility not to interfere with his or her relationship with the children.

If the children, of any age, are rebuffed often enough, they will stop asking to spend time with their parent. I find it hard to believe that you would expect any child, adult or not, to keep trying forever.

imaommy there are plenty of children who would want fathers in their lives however fathers do not share those feelings and rather not be involved for whatever reason. your own children are an example, i don't think that their fathers are such a big part of their daily lives and I bet your kids would love it to be different. there are a lot of parents (moms and dads) who would find an excuse in not being good parents. maybe even saying that their spouses don't want kids around. didn't one of your kids' father said that his wife would get jealous or some other BS? people would come up wiht whatever excuse if they don't want to be involved. who to blame? i don't know. certainly not the kids.

finedreams, I agree. I'm sure my children would love to have had fathers that were in their lives. At times, I believed the only reason my oldest son's father was in his life for the time he was, is because his wife pushed for it. I don't know if it was because she loved him or hated me, I tend to think she wanted to make my life more difficult. But, every time he called to cancel a visit or when he didn't show up, it was HIS fault... not hers. If she had not been in his life, who knows if he would have visited with my son. If he had or if he hadn't, it would have been HIS choice. The fact that he stopped seeing him when my son was 12 is HIS fault, even if his wife supported it or even if it was her idea. It's still HIS fault, not hers.

My middle son's father chose not to see his son as well. He knew from the time he was a baby that he had a child. He did not want to deal with it. He hid behind the excuse that his wife would be angry to find out he had a child before he met her. When my son was 9, he walked away from us when we saw each other. He saw my son standing there and my son looks nearly identical to his father so how can he continue to live in denial that it was his son? He told me to leave him alone because his wife would leave him if I pursued trying to get him to see my son. He denied being the father for 18 years. We stood in court the day after my son's 18th birthday and he continued to deny he was his father, his wife sitting in the front row. I don't know and I don't care if SHE was really against him finding out and I don't know and I don't care if she really ever threatened to leave him. The court ordered DNA testing and two months later, we got the results... 99.9% he IS my son's father! We got the results by mail two months before going to court for a final order of support. He did not contact my son before going to court, he was still fighting it saying he never knew about my son and since my son was 18, it was too late for me to get a support order. The court took the case under submission and issued a ruling two months later. We got the ruling by mail and I won. He was ordered to pay back support and the court found that he had many opportunities to have a relationship, question paternity, and take responsibility, but he ran from it. He finally decided to call my son AFTER he got the courts ruling. He met with him and took him to lunch, then took him to the mall and bought him expensive sneakers, an ipod, and a bunch of other things. He thought he can buy his way out of the guilt. He also told my son that I lied to him and told tried to shift the blame to me. It wasn't his wife's fault, but he tried to blame her for years. It wasn't my fault. It was HIS fault. He chose to walk away from us. He chose to stand up in court and fight having to take a DNA test he knew would prove he was the father. It's his fault, nobody else's.

My daughter's father also stayed away all her life. He met and married his current wife. He had four kids with her and knew he had a daughter he didn't see. (he also has a son he didn't see from another woman). That son lived with his mom and he could have seen him whenever he wanted and he really could have taken custody of his son at any time and he chose not to. It doesn't matter what his 'reason' is that he didn't have a relationship with my daughter or his other son, HE made a choice. He actually called me last night and asked me to send him a picture of my daughter. But, he waited until she was in high school to try to start a relationship with her and she wants nothing to do with him. She's now 18 and legally changed her last name. He's tried to tell her that his kids wouldn't understand that he had a daughter before he married their mom. He tried to tell her that his wife was jealous and didn't want him to see her. It doesn't matter if both of those were true, it is HIS fault that he never saw her. It's HIS fault he never called her. It's HIS fault that he didn't have a relationship with her.

and I also talked to his wife who told me that her kids didn't know about my daughter because HE didn't want them to know and she said she grew up without her dad and over the years, she had tried to get him to contact my daughter. So, just because a guy says his wife is the one pushing the kids out of his life, doesn't make it true. There's no doubt THOSE kind of selfish, insecure women out there, but the reality is that it's the father's responsibility and if he chooses to be with such a woman, he is choosing her over his kids. So, finedreams... I agree that people come up with whatever excuse.. who to blame? No, it's not the kids fault ever.. and it's not the stepparents fault... IT'S THE PARENT'S FAULT!!! (the parent that doesn't bother to have a relationship.. not the custodial parent, unless they keep the children from the other parent)

"Is dad so spineless that he'd allow his wife to exclude his children? Would he go and have a good time while his children resent SM for not inviting them?"...The short answer to this is yes. When I was a teen, I was not invited on family vacations with Dad, SM and SB. Serinity was not invited to Christmas and to her Dad's Wedding. That is the point. That we ARE affected by the decisions that are made on behalf of Stepparents and we have feelings about it. I think if each of our Dad's felt as if they had the choice to invite their children, that they would, but they didn't want to suffer the wrath of SM, so they chose to not invite us. By the way, I've seen SM's wrath first hand and she once grabbed me by the face and pulled my hair. Was my Dad a spineless wimp for not intervening?...Of course he was. Do I blame him for it? Yep. I also blame her, because without her, it never would have happened in the first place.

"Of course, I was raised with a strong belief that family is valued. I can't imagine that I would allow anyone to come between that." So was I, that is why it is all so hard to swallow. My Dad is not the same person with her as he is when she is not around and before she came along.

Ima, I think you choose, for whatever reason to not want to see that there ARE 2 sides to the story. It is surely not always the SK's fault the relationships don't work. It's also not only the parents fault although they are responsible for their reaction to it. My relationship with both SM and my Dad are much better now, but I certainly wasn't to blame for the problems that existed. I don't think Serinity or believe that our Dads are blameless in the situation. But we understand that if somebody pitches a fit at every little thing that it is natural to do everything you can to keep the peace.

We just want to feel as if our feelings are recognized by somebody and we want people to understand them and validate them. It would be nice to have as many resources available to step kids as there are to step parents because the chalenges we face are real. It is hard to have your parent who you have been relatively close to go off and marry somebody who makes a relationship difficult. The feelings we have are real and it actually does hurt and it doesn't make us feel good when people say "get your own life". As if because we are hurting about the strained relationship with our parent and the loss of the closeness we used to have, we don't have a life of our own. Just because it is not your experience, and you get along just fine with your stepmom, doesn't mean we all have had the same experience you have had.

"It is hard to have your parent who you have been relatively close to go off and marry somebody who makes a relationship difficult."

I'm sure that's true. It's also hard for a parent to have a child that goes off and marries someone who makes it difficult for them to have a good relationship with their child. But it happens all the time and either the parent can accept that their children are grown and they aren't going to share the closeness they once had, or they blame the new spouse for keeping their child away from them and it puts the child in a position to choose between their parents and their partner. I'm sure there are many parent-child estrangements because the child chooses the spouse. If the parent insisted on maintaining the same closeness they once had, they might be seen as interfering and is probably where the terrible stereotype for a meddling mother in law comes from. The meddling mother may also be hurting but there comes a time when they have to move on from the empty nest and let their kids have their own life. Same thing with parents. If parents spend half their life raising kids and once the kids are grown, they want to have their own life and it doesn't include the grown kids as much as the grown kids like... then I guess they have the right to do that. Would it hurt? probably. But, it's the parents choice as to how much they want, even if there was a time when they doted on their kids. My stepdaughter's mom used to spend a lot of time with her kids. Her daughter got used to that and when mom met her BF and left, that stopped. It's her mom's fault, not the BF's.

"Just because it is not your experience, and you get along just fine with your stepmom, doesn't mean we all have had the same experience you have had."

I didn't always get along with my stepmom. There were problems and tensions, she may not have been thrilled for us to drop in and stay a few days when we did, sometimes we called and sometimes just showed up (probably because we didn't think anything of it & considered it "dad's" house) but in retrospect, it was her house too. As young adults, we didn't care about that, to us it was our dad's and we were entitled to see him when WE wanted. It did cause problems and dad was often put in the middle. I'm sure it was hard for him. It wasn't until I had my own children and got together with my exBF and was raising his children too, that I started to realize the dynamics of blended/step families. I started to understand her position. I began to realize how hard it can be to raise someone else's children or in her case, deal with children that were raised in a different way than she raised her own. My dad had to deal with her kids, which I know wasn't easy for him. But, it took a while for her and I to connect and it wasn't always easy. I ignored some of the things she did that annoyed me or were hurtful. I'm sure she ignored some of the things I did that bothered her. There were only about four years that her and I got along and then she had a brain aneurysm. She's been in a permanent vegetative state since and I am the only other relative (besides my dad) that will care for her. Her own children don't see her and don't even call to see if she's alive. They've already sued my dad to claim that he has spent all her money (their inheritance) and he was able to prove that yes, he spent all her money on her care and he has also spent more than she ever had on her care. So maybe the fact that I am here, feeding, bathing, clothing and changing her diapers along side him, that he and I are closer than we have ever been. He appreciates what I do. I do what I do because I love him and while I'm not sure I can say I loved her the same as I do him, she deserves better than to be abandoned by her own kids and I wish I had gotten more time to be friends with her and build our relationship even more. I was able to talk to her about things I couldn't ever talk to my own mother about. I had a better relationship with her in those few years than I have ever had with my 'bio' mom. I guess you might be luckier than me in that category.

Everyone has a right to their own feelings and opinions. If I heard a mother whining about her grown children that don't come see her anymore because they got married and have their own families now, I'd tell her to take up some hobbies, take a class, go on a cruise, or just generally 'get a life'. Kids grow up.. it doesn't stay the same and parent's are just as entitled to have their own life too. My oldest son was 19 when I married my husband. He had moved out already and criticized many things about my husband. Yet, when he wanted to join the Army, he went and did what he wanted. He didn't listen to me when I voiced my concerns... I love my son and always will, but my relationship with him has changed and it will never be the same. Our closeness may evolve over the years and I'm sure there will be times we are closer than at other times. I'm not happy with all his choices but he is an adult and he does what he wants. I'm an adult and he may not like that I got married and he may not like my choice in partners, but he has at almost 22 years old, realized that I am entitled to my own life. and I know all about the feelings when another woman is in dad's life and trying to make changes or makes digs/comments that to everyone else may sound innocent, but to you they sound like a personal attack... but subtle. But, then I remember that I'm 39 years old and my dad makes the choice to have someone in his life. I maintain a close relationship with my dad despite anyone else's interference. It's my choice to smile, pretend I don't get the dig, be sweet as pie and I call him if he doesn't call me and I go see him. I may be luckier that my dad is responsive to my relationship with him but then there were years I didn't see him at all so it hasn't always been wonderful and I wasn't a "daddy's girl", which may affect my opinions. If my dad didn't want to see me much (if he made excuses that he can't talk to me or I can't come see him) I'm sure I would be sad but I would also be busy with my life... my husband, my stepdaughter, my kids, my job, custody/support issues, problems with ex's, running a household, after school activities, paying bills, and of course GW.

It is not the same thing at all. If your children become less close to you because they have married someone who makes that difficult, it is terribly hurtful, but if your parent becomes less close to you because he or she has married someone who makes that difficult, it is 100x more so. Once you have children you are their parent FOREVER. Parents should be there for their children for the rest of their lives, unless the parent becomes so incapacitated that he or she can not even take care of himself. Once you have a child, you never again "have a life of your own" if that life excludes your child.

"Either the parent can accept that their children are grown and they aren't going to share the closeness they once had, or they blame the new spouse for keeping their child away from them and it puts the child in a position to choose between their parents and their partner."...I feel like serinity and I are both trying to do just that, accept our parent's spouse as they are, although the same closeness will not ever be there again. It's a trust issue at this point. However, gradual acceptance doesn't make the way we feel about what has/is going on less hurtful or our feelings about it less valid.

I believe that if the kids are used to dropping in on their Dad, just because he gets remarried, that dynamic shouldn't have to change. The Stepparent knows that the man has children and if she knows him well enough to marry him, then she should also know and respect the relationship between parent and child as it is and shouldn't be coming in and trying to change everything to suit her. In the same respect, I know the relationship between my Fiance and his mother and I'm certainly not going to come in and try to turn that upside down. It wouldn't be the right thing to do. And with future MIL, she is subtle about her little digs. I do choose to ignore them and pretend I don't get it. It is frustrating at times, but not impossible. It's not the same as the situation felt with my SM because the personalities were different. A subtle dig is not the same as a screaming rage.

To be fair, the tensions, etc. that you had with your SM are nothing compared to the raging arguments I had with mine, (before I was an adult, by the way).

"I was able to talk to her about things I couldn't ever talk to my own mother about. I had a better relationship with her in those few years than I have ever had with my 'bio' mom. I guess you might be luckier than me in that category."...I'm luckier as to the bio-mom. Not luckier as to the Step Mom. It seems as even though you each had annoyances with one another, you did not have a volitile relationship. So there is a difference with the personality of the SM. It also sounds as if your Dad was a relatively strong person who would stand up for what is right. I used to think my Dad was (when he was married to my pushover Mom). However, once he was with my SM...he became completely spineless. You want to know what the difference was? My Mom avoids conflict at all costs, so she would always back down if there was something my parents were arguing about. My SM, she never backs down from an arguement, be it with her sister, my Dad, her parents, or myself and my brother. I think the only person she doesn't kinda enjoy a good arguement with is my Step brother (her son). Therefore, my Dad learned quickly to be the one to back down so that he didn't have to live in turmoil being with her.

The differnce in your relationships, you may have to deal with some minor irritating behavior from you SM or from your kids future spouse, but that is not the same as the constant trying to pick a fight behavior that Serenity has to deal with from her SM. It is not minor, it's exhausting and maddening. When your DS marries some girl who rages at you or tries to pick a fight with you around every turn, then come back and lecture about getting a life. The truth is that I live (and have for the past 13 years) 2000 miles away from my Dad. I have never dropped in unannounced. That is not the problem. It is not minor little things. After reading some of Serinity's posts, I'm actually thankful that although my SM has been incredibly difficult over the years, she doesn't hold a candle to Serinity's SM! Reading her posts has helped me to know that there is somebody out there that is going through the same feelings that I went through and has given me some perspective. Serinity has certainly expressed that she is trying to have a relationship with her Dad and has had to swallow quite a bit of pride in the face of her SM to do so. Yet she still is told that what she is doing is not enough. I can imagine how frustrating that probably is. Everything she does to help out is looked at as some sort of manipulation and is twisted and turned until it is looked at as a bad deed rather than a good one. She is not subtle about it. My SM was not subtle either. She was in-your-face crazy about it. It is too hard to face the regret she might have if she were to never see her Dad again, so she does the best she can and she comes to us to vent. Rather than telling her to hang in there and to give her good advice about how to deal with it, you come on here and you say, "oh, just get a life". It doesn't help her or others like her to deal with her actual feelings about what she is going through.

I have no doubt that Serenity has a life. She is just frustrated with this paticular aspect of her life, so she comes to this forum to vent about it and she probably leaves more frustrated than she already was.

If a new spouse can convince them of anything that interferes with their relationship with their children, IT IS STILL THE PARENT'S FAULT, not the stepparent. Yes, the stepparent would be a b*tch/a$$hole but that doesn't alleviate the parent from being the one that is at fault for not having a relationship with their children. In this scenario, the parent is choosing to cut out kids to make marriage smoother rather than stand up for their flesh & blood.

Sure, but this is also true in reverse. If an adult child can convince them of anything that interferes with their relationship with their spouse, IT IS STILL THE SPOUSE'S FAULT, not the stepchild. Yes, the stepchild would be a b*tch/a$$hole but that doesn't alleviate the spouse from being the one that is at fault for not making the marriage a priority.

That doesn't stop people from coming on here trying to figure out how to deal with these adult stepchildren. All serenity and raek are saying is that the same issues can go both ways, and be just as hard from the other side, which is what they're dealing with.