Annie, in my case peace (not necessarily understanding) only comes when the person with NPD isn't in my life. In a weird way, I feel very fortunate that my last contact with my mother was so heinous that I can easily disengage from any further connection. Like you, I also think it's deliberate, and I don't feel any need to support the behavior in any respect. If they won't go away, then you need to. It's my personal belief that I may never see her again, and that's OK. I still believe I have nothing to feel guilty for. With my mother, even when the conversation was going no where, I still needed her to hear me even if she wasn't listening. At the very least, I feel better about defending myself.

I'm striving for understanding (without contact), as I'd like some spiritual evolution to take place. I don't know if or when it might, but I have to be hopeful about something!

Both my BIL's have narcisstic traits, as did my FIL. (I firmly believe it's probably why/how my husband and I found/recognized each other.) My husband can have as much contact as he needs/wants to with them, but I personally have none. I don't feel a need to attend family get-togethers (after 29 years) nor take care of them any more. I've had too many instances of them coming to my home to use me for what I could provide, without anyone feeling a need to engage in any conversation or act interested in us in any way. I won't personally engage them in any conversation, as they look for things to use against me. Even when nothing is said, there are always ''hurt feelings'' which they enjoy discussing among themselves. They don't ask me about myself, nor is there any conversational ''give and take''. I can't win for losing, so it's better not to try. I am very respectful of my MIL, who is a sweetie, so she is the only person I concern myself with. My biggest problem lies in spending time with her, as all she wants to talk about is her family. I don't talk about them to her, and she's seems oblivious to the fact that none of us have any relationship. It gets old very quickly.

Good for you Claire! And it sounds like you're doing what is right for you and your situation.

As for understanding -- All I can really offer is that your mother is 'broken'. She has a central core break, a total malfunction that she cannot acknowledge and you cannot fix.

Imagine a vending machine that occasionally gives you what you ask for, sometimes gives you something else, but most often, just takes your money and considers you a contemptable fool for continuing to feed it.

That's the narcissist.

Wow, Sweeby, you just described my last relationship! He had other problems, too. But the vending machine metaphor is spot on.

Sweeby, I think I need to frame that sentiment. I learned long ago however, not to ask for anything. It's probably why I still have problems sometimes asking for things.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to battle the distortion campaigns? I tend to give up and retreat...consequently I don't have many family relationships any longer. (Somehow, it doesn't seem worth it to me.) I do feel sad I don't have much in the way of family; yet everyone is so overly-focused on themselves, I don't ever think of family as a viable support group.

There is a common belief between my sister and myself that my aunt really knows the score, while she remains in denial. We probably expect contempt from her, which is what my mother is so good at instilling. Contempt passes so easily from one to another, especially when one doesn't want to acknowledge the NPD, or even know what it is.

So...Is it worth a battle? Or is retreat the best option?

At some point, I started treating my family members like anyone else in my life, and expected them to do the same. In other words, treat each other like people first, and family second.

Families tend to take great liberties with each other that they would never take with any other person - friend, co-worker, acquaintance, teacher etc. I don't accept that.

This is what worked for me -

I am respectful with each of them, but if they start with any behavior I don't like, I will draw a line for them - "You are not allowed to go over this line with me. Please respect my space. Please don't criticize XXX to me. Please stop dwelling on this past subject. Please recognize that our family grew up in negativity and you are mindlessly perpetuating this. If you continue in this vein, I will leave (or hang up)." This warning is always given calmly and nicely.

Then follow through. Repeat yourself. Hang up the phone. Leave the room. Start talking to someone else. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

One sibling (who just visited) is prone to "throw bombs" - verbal grenades that are meant for nothing except to get a rise out of you. I used to ignore them, but now that he's a little better behaved and "trained" to what I expect, I will engage him by asking why he said what he just said, calmly, nicely. I found that he will defend and defend his verbal bomb, but facing my calm questioning, he will back off. The verbal bombs are coming much less frequently with me. He still uses it as a primary communication pattern with other siblings though. Again, these siblings still react the way he wants - emotionally. Giving him satisfaction and reinforcing the behavior.

Believe me this is not easy. I have a temper that flares up if I am attacked or treated unfairly. I will not stand for being attacked in any way, and when I was younger I would deal with this by not speaking to people for years (mom). Calming my own incendiary feelings was the first step - the detachment I guess. Time and distance helped with that part.

Personally I can't be around these people for my own sanity and for peace in my life. If I had to live with my mom or brother - I might have to do drugs!

I keep coming back here and almost post but dont but the generosity of sharing on the part of all of you has me deciding to share something that is difficult for me as I prefer the river Da Nile. Lol But this is timely as I am confronting this lifelong destructive relationship now...finally.

and (((Claire))))I think it must really be a special kind of torment to have a parent with this disorder and wanted to say since personalities show through even on forums that you stand out as a very kind and generous shining spirit and I still remember your kitchen drawer that charges lol is u right? Everybody else here, too you have great strength and courage and it really helps reading your stories.

My tormentor is my older sister and it is only this past summer that I have severed ties for what I think is for good because, like in your case Claire, an act so heinous that for the first time I am confident in my resolve to move forward even as each holiday and birthday brings a new challenge and also added strength. and guess what? For myself I feel fantastic! Oh, sweet freedom from negativity and walking on eggshells and deflecting and wondering when the next attack will come. The difficult part for me is my young childrenone too young to know really but the other extremely attached to cousin and aunt. It breaks my heart.

I should say my sister is not diagnosed and I always in my head thought her to be a pathological liarbut reading here it is nail on the head! I was in shock and nodding my head as I read paragraph after paragraph. She is a chameleon and takes on the persona of whoever she is with at the moment and agree with everything you say and the moment that person gone will say the most horrible things about them. She will lie about everything, from the most trivial to the dangerous. She will take things that happened to me and retell t hem as if they happened to her even to me. She will deny, deny, deny. I am the mushball in my family and an easy target for her. The happier I am, the more I deflect, the more vicious she becomes. The last straw? She transferred her jealous hatred to my children. The first time, at the insistence of my father and again believing that yes she loves my kids really I had to bury the pain to mend the fence. The second time, she said the most vile thing imaginable about my child that I could never let pass my lips and I swear I never felt such violence in my life the mother lion I guess. Later I found out she has been telling other family members the same hateful thing but now has since denied, of course to other family members that question. I literally see the change come over her before an episode of course you all are probably familiar...with the pokes trying to get a reaction and then like another look comes across her eyes and in her case drinking multiplies her attacks by a thousand always at me I didnt grieve our mother enough, Dad loves you more, she cant talk to me (because I question the lies), etc.etc. The sickest thing? I moved to gete away from her. She waited a few years a bought a house in walking distance to mine. I live in fear of what lies and horror she will tell neighbors. The number one thing she tells people is that I moved here after her lol. That I followed her. I have always covered for her, made excuses, told myself that down deep she has a good heart. It is not true. She was always very pretty and popular in school and I have noticed as she ages it gets worse. She also will spend weekends in her bedroom not talking to anyone. She is the most charming around people, of course - Sweeby that hit home. With her friends, she will do anything and actually does things outside the realm of what a friend does - she literally can't do enough. If they have a death in the family, for example - she will be with the family for "family only" things and will grieve as if she lost her own family member and tell everyone how she suffering. Not saying these are sad, sad situations but her behavior is not normal. Family members know, of course. They know she lies, etc...they just laugh it off or ignore. It is me who has been the target and I realize now, how just like Gina is saying, I always give her the emotional blood she wants. No more. Is over.

This may sound horrible, but maybe you all here can understand. I truly dont think there is any help for this, it seems a sickness of the soul. I know many mental conditions are successfully treated with medication but I just cant see it here.

I'm so sorry about your toxic sister Maggie. It's clear how much pain she's caused you, and to follow you! (my Ex did that too) and then go after your children. My goodness, she's broken! I wonder if her "Dad loves you more" complaint is somehow at the core of things?

"For myself I feel fantastic! Oh, sweet freedom from negativity and walking on eggshells and deflecting and wondering when the next attack will come."

Beautifully written Maggie -- and so True! I vividly remember dreaming of open windows and wonderful fresh breezes, and waking up each morning refreshed and Happy and Eager to start the day.

I hope you can hold onto that wonderful feeling and make it last for you -- The more you can write about that feeling -- now while it's fresh -- the more easily you will be able to capture it some day down the road when you may need it again.

As to the neighbors, I'd just tell a short but sweet version of the truth -- That for years, you tried and tried to keep the peace, but as Sis became increasingly irrational and vitriolic, you simply found it too painful and had to sever the relationship. You wish her well, but can't envision making peace...

The kinder you are about it, the less they'll be able to believe Sis's ranting. And if a neighbor ever asks you about some outlandish allegation, you just look surprised and gasp "You mean you believed that?" (To which, they'll have to admit that of course they didn't!)

Maggie, I'm glad you felt comfortable enough to post. Congratulations on taking the steps necessary to protect yourself and make your well being #1.

This thread is a real eye opener.

Thank you Sweeby and that really touches me - your dreams of open windows and fresh air. I am so happy your dreams came true:) A feeling of breathing...ahhhh exhale, like I have been holding my breath for so long. Is good. I am also sure I can keep it because life is still good, isn't it?... and I have so much to be thankful for and I never forget that.

Something I think makes this very easy for me is something I learned long ago. Since I suffer from anxiety (might as well put it all out there - lol), I learned that for me I cannot dwell on the past - it makes me...well anxious - lol, and I cannot think too much of the future because that makes me worry. I live very much in the present an find my happiness in my day - a great cup of coffee, my daughter's laugh, my son's joke, a nice bottle of red breathing on the counter - lol. I know it sounds cheesy, but truly is the key to happiness for me because I don't think there is any grand thing waiting for us called "happiness", it is in the moments and the little things....lol I know I know sounds hokey but is true for me. Music is another biggie for me. Soothes the soul:)))

The very difficult thing that pains me so is my children because I have just been making excuses - we busy, etc...but I will have to say something else? The problem is they just around the corner, so constant reminder.

When talking to friends or neighbors I don't say anything about it because truthfully I feel very embarrassed. As far as neighbors go I just worry about her saying untrue things about my son and since they would not know the truth like family members, what if they believed it? But, you know what? I think you right that it is time for me to speak he truth, in a short sweet way but time to speak. I am very private this way and even with years of hearing the horrible things she would say about me from others, I always kept my silence.

Mitch, thanks so much for that:)

So - is there help for this?

"This may sound horrible, but maybe you all here can understand. I truly dont think there is any help for this, it seems a sickness of the soul. I know many mental conditions are successfully treated with medication but I just cant see it here."

You've hit the nail on the head ((((Maggie)))). We cannot treat it. There is no surgery, there is no medication. And even if there was, there is no getting them into the operating room or taking the meds. And that is what is so horrible about it. There is little doubt, they don't want to be this way, but there is no way out. That's how I find my pity. Doesn't make me want to slap him any less, but I still feel sorry for the dude. Sure wish I could go back in time and keep him away from my son and having had his input into his life, but it's too late to lament the wasted years, so I too will look at the red breathing on the counter or enjoy my son's embrace to make me happy.

How old is your son Rob?
And is the NPD his father? Or an avoidable mistake? ;-)

He's almost ten. The NPD, officially diagnosed, is his father. And unavoidable curse ;)

Maggie, I'm so grateful you decided to share this with us. You know, I'd been thinking about ''putting it out here'' for quite a while before I finally posted; once I did, I was so happy to find there were others who actually understood. (Thank you for your kind words, which I appreciate so much. You know, I cleaned the charging drawer out last week, so it would be easier to use. It got very cluttered, but is no longer. Aaaaahhh, peace reigns once again.) Anyway, I believe Sweeby's right about sharing your short version of the truth. If people are aware that you know what your sister has, it deflates her balloon when she decides to blow. It's also the kindest thing to do for your kids, so they know that whatever they hear, really isn't true or about them or you. In fact, that's probably the best answer to the question, about knowing how to battle the distortion campaigns. It's why I've tried to learn more about this disorder, and helps me more competently detach. Maggie, it's a true gift that you have learned to be in the present. It's all we really have, isn't it?

Whether it's your mother, sister, father or brother who has NPD, this dysfunction is difficult, since we can't legally divorce them as family...only emotionally. We can really only help ourselves, and don't always have known coping mechanisms available to us. I think that's why it takes so long before we finally decide when we've had enough. I think the reason it has wounded me so much is because I tried so hard. To be a good daughter and do the right thing, and provide loving care even when it didn't come back to me. It doesn't matter. There is no reward. No loving relationship, no concern or care for me personally. It's been the most difficult thing to accept, but accept it I do. Finally!

Sweeby, I relate to open windows and fresh air. Quite literally in fact, after a visit by both my parents to my home where my Dad had a stroke, and my mom decided to take to (my) bed for the six weeks they were here. After I drove them home and turned around to go the other direction, I felt like a free bird.

Rob, I'm not entirely certain they don't want to be this way! But knowing they can't help themselves helps me. I completely agree it's a soul sickness. I just don't want them to suck the soul out of me.

And...D*mn, I wish I could drink wine right now. It used to help until my face starting breaking out into a rash and my eyelids would scab over and take three weeks to heal. Menopause bites.

Hugs back at ((((Rob)))) and also Partst, I so relate to you since it is also a sister and I have the exact same relationship with my father. I don't want to hurt him and we not discussing it and I do everything I can not to make him feel not pressured or anything. Is still all new and just last week had to reaffirm to both him and bil that this is permanent as she still thinks I will cave like I always do and she now denies what she said of course, etc...the more she realizes this the more vicious she is becoming but I believe my husband has put a stop to that.

I do know from other family members that he has said she needs help but like I said we never talk about it. Although I have happiness within myself, it would be so great if one day he told me that he saw me and understood what she has done to me my entire life. I don't expect it or need it or anything - just sayin it would be great! I completely understand what you say about you just being born was enough. I have no doubt my own sister has a deep seeded hatred for me. I never said that aloud because, of course people would tsk tsk it but I know it to be true.

So much more to comment on...like the pointing out of their faults in others, etc. Wow. Everything that has been written here fits my sister to a T. So sad there is no help for this. I still don't know what to tell my son. He so little and he keep asking why he is not seeing them. Is such a shame because the kids truly love each other but because of the nature of what she said this last episode, I cannot allow them together ever again.

Claire, that sucks about the wine.

Maggie, can you tell your son simply that your sister is sick and you don't ever want her to hurt him the way she's hurt you? Even small children understand about meanness, and his loyalty to you might be surprising...even welcome! After all, you are his mom. He's going to learn about her soon enough, it wouldn't hurt to start explaining now. ((Good luck. It's hard to think we can't protect them enough! Sadly, it's going to be her kid(s) that will need protection.))

Here's what I think about this distancing with the narcissist. You want to "extinguish" the behavior/disarm it, so you have to not feed it however you can accomplish that task. The best tactic is to ignore the narcissistic behavior and the narcissist. This is the most difficult part, because narcissists thrive on drama centered around them, even if it is negative drama, they are drawn to it like a moth to a flame. I wouldn't go out of my way to announce that I was cutting off my sister. In fact, I would try to avoid the subject of my sister and change the subject of my sister whenever it comes up in conversation. Just say, "I don't know" or something of that nature. For example, my parents often ask me "Have you heard from your brother" which they know would be very, very unlikely given our relationship, and I always reply, "Nope." and change the subject. If they want to know more, I say, "If you want to know something about him or talk to him, call him yourself." and if they press further, "I have nothing to say on this subject, I don't want to be involved in this conversation/topic." I don't go into the reasons I am detached from my brother AT ALL, EVER. I have set my boundaries and I just try and reinforce them as consistently, albeit gently as I can. Firm but non-confrontational and don't go into the details because that gives power/feeds the narcissist, that you spend time and energy on them AT ALL. The pain needs to be expressed, it is true, but unfortunately, NOT to someone still involved with the narcissist, not to family members. And best not to total strangers either, lol!! I think therapy and support groups are invaluable for dealing with this kind of thing. I was once involved with a group therapy situation (very short period, due to some work issue, long story). Anyway, I was so struck by the common thread of pain everyone in the group was experiencing as the result of having to deal with a very negative, emotional vampire situation. The person and circumstances was different in every instance--co-worker, father in law, stepson, ex-husband, sister/brother, etc. But the toll it took was remarkably similar. I think that's why Al-Anon is so helpful for families suffering with alcoholism, the group support is invaluable. I don't know much about alcoholism, but I would imagine that the two are related, because doesn't alcohol make you feel less accountable, more invincible? I dunno, alcohol makes me feel sleepy after a few drinks, and I've never gone much beyond that!

As for your son, I would add that I might tell him that not being able to see your sister makes you sad too, but sometimes we have to do sad difficult things in life. I agree that he can understand about not wanting to be around people who are bullies, etc. To me, that's a common and sad thread in all this, the grieving we all go through at the loss of our loved one, the loss of "family." That's why I sat in the chair the whole day, it was grief. The "if only . . . " or the "maybe this time . . . " because they are not dead, they are still alive. And seeing them suffer as time goes by. Seems very similar to what friends and family of alcoholics go through. I think narcissists are addicted to the adrenaline rush of power and success and adoration/being a big deal. And they have zero resources for dealing with any kind of emotional pain, so they pawn it off on others to deal with. But both of these ways of coping, the rush and the pawning, become more and more difficult to maintain as time goes by, just like the alcohol addiction becomes more and more difficult to manage. Which then requires more and more detachment on the part of the alcoholic's loved ones to bear experiencing, when total separation from any involvement whatsoever is not possible. In a family, if it is one sibling or parent that is the narcissist, it is often not possible to cut yourself off from that person entirely. Even if you don't see them directly, as others have attested, you HEAR about them. Still, let your other family members vent briefly, say, "Yes, I know, it is a painful shame that it has to be this way" and then move on to another subject. Keep your life busy with other ways of being in this world. Of course, I know this is easier said than done! And if another one of my family who was still involved with the narcissist on a daily basis came to me for help/support, I would insist that they get counseling from an outside party. Me trying to intervene would just unfortunately drag me into the drama once again, feed the narcissist, (because now I'm spending time solving problems they create) and set back the detachment process. Sad but inevitably true. I would listen impartially, sympathize briefly, then recommend detachment and counseling. That's all that can be done. I come from a whole family of narcissist, I repeat the "get counseling" statement like a mantra. I've given both my parents the contact information for counselors. But to no avail. I'm sure many children of alcoholics have similar stories, how year after year, time after time, the alcoholic refuses to get treatment or give up the drug, no matter what the personal cost.

Maggie -

I'd agree with Claire's advice about discussing the NPD person's illness with your children. Of course, you need to modify the message and strength to their ages, but NOT doing it leaves them completely vulnerable. It'll take a while to find the right words, but I'm sure you'll find them.

Maybe something along the lines of: "Aunt Susie has a sickness which makes her feel so bad about herself that she has to tear down other people so can feel better than them. (This is something most kids have seen on the playground and can probably relate to.) Sometimes, this means Aunt Susie tells lies or says things that really, really hurt other people, and this is why we're staying away from her for a while. It's really sad that Aunt Susie has to live like this, but until she can get better, we need to stay away from her."

For your situation Rob, it's a little tougher... But since the diagnosis was 'official' and all, I'd be inclined to share it. Small bites, delivered as needed, maybe holding off on the name of the disorder until your son is capable of researching in on his own? You know your son best and the kinds of tactics his father would pull.

What do you think he will do that will be harmful to your son? Bad-mouth you, certainly. Demand perfection? Absolute obedience? Spoil him completely to win his imagined 'Parent Popularity Contest'? Ridicule him for his shortcomings? Model bullying and using behaviors?

Maggie, do whatever is necessary to protect your children. Whether it is NPD or some other disorder, the people who have these personalities have no boundaries - including boundaries around children. They will exhibit the same nastiness and manipulation around children that they do to you.

Maggie, I could have written every single line you did about MY sister. When DH and I decided to move permanently up to the mountains it was mostly to get out of the city but part of it was to be closer to my parents. I was always very close to my mother. DD was married and we really wanted out of the city and had a house that we used for weekends to move into. My sister went nuts telling everyone how stupid we were. We moved built a house to flip so we would have the money to build the house we really wanted. My dad, a contractor, had the plans drawn for the second house and of course my sister saw them. Long story short she moved and built my dream house exactly down to the exterior colors across the street from the lot we were going to built it on. I never did build that house and was somewhat happy she did LOL because I could see every design flaw in it after the house was done.

I had the same issues you have with friend and neighbors and like you for years didnt say anything because it was embarrassing plus my parent were in the same neighborhood. I was always the peace maker and she played me like a fiddle, knew what buttons to push, knowing I would never come back on her. I heard all the horrible things she said about me from others and I never said anything back.

After my mother passed away I was trying to help my dad cope with all the legal, business and property issues that needed to be taken care of and my sister, who had never been involved or cared about it before, just wouldnt let up on him. He had given her copies of all the wills and trusts years earlier but she never read them. It was hard enough for dad without having to explain everything to her and listen to her rants over every little thing. She wanted anything and everything and she wanted it now. I had another yelling screaming with her and tried to explain that her father was still alive and she couldnt have or take anything.

It was hard at first but now 5 years later I am much happier. I quit having bad dreams after a year or so and I just dont really even think about her anymore. We moved to the other end of the lake 30 miles away giving up a beautiful house that was paid off and bought a really old house that we have been remodeling every since. Taking a big hammer to a wall can be very therapeutic.

With young children you must be much younger than me. Please do what you have to do to protect yourself and your family. I took me years to do what I always wanted to do but was afraid to do. You are doing the best thing for your little ones even if they dont understand. My DD said to me after that first thanksgiving that she always wondered why I put up with my sister and she knew what a bully she was since the time she was 4 years old. Of my sister three children one lives out of the country, has only been back twice in the last 30 years, her daughter is just like her and they sometimes go for years not talking, and the oldest, the nicest guy you would ever want to know ,is close to her and for whatever reason they get along fine. I gave up trying to understand it you could drive yourself nut and it wouldnt change a thing. The thing that helped me the most is finally realizing it wasnt anything to do with who I am it was always about who she is.

Claudia
Again my thanks to you Sweeby I cant tell you how many times I went back and read your words. They gave me strength and hope so I could keep going.

What do you think he will do that will be harmful to your son? Bad-mouth you, certainly. Demand perfection? Absolute obedience? Spoil him completely to win his imagined 'Parent Popularity Contest'? Ridicule him for his shortcomings? Model bullying and using behaviors?

Sweeby, if you mean me, I dodged a bullet mostly on these. Yes he bad mouths me, but LF doesn't agree with him or like it at all. Does he demand perfection, yes he does and it causes the boy great heartache. All I get to do is listen, but he knows I will and he feels heard. He used to try and bully and using behaviors, but figured out last year that it was not a good tactic. Whew. I really dodged it on that one. He's really a grounded guy and must've gotten enough information and head on his shoulders that he already "gets it". He knows dad is sick, but wishes he could give him pills. Believe it or not, I have to remind him dad isn't all bad and I am not all good in the popularity contest. Dad does care and I do lose my temper, but he knows. Kid know best, especially when you use something gone awry and say, "That didn't feel right to me, did it to you?" "No! He shoulda said he was sorry! not justified it." They know right and wrong.

Wow, so many of your experiences hit home with me! I too have a sister that for the longest time, I never understood why she was just so nasty, mean, and untrustworthy. She was sweet as pie to outsiders (until they saw through her), but I always knew her true colors, even when we were kids.

I cut off complete contact with her over 7 years ago, with the occasional holiday or birthday card. I have nieces and nephews that I've never even met and it is hard to think about that sometimes, but I have to say it is worth it.

Basically, my sister committed a very heinous act that I have not forgiven her for to this day. And truly, my life is much more peaceful and drama-free without her in it.

I've been doing a lot of research into my family tree this past year or two and I've been able to understand some of the roots to my family's dysfunction. I can "kind of" understand why my sister is the way she is, but I know I can't change her, and my ultimate priority is the safety and sanctitiy of my family.

I've had to develop VERY strong boundaries.

Claudia, I prefer old houses anyway, so I'm glad that worked out for you. I'm also glad you've found a measure of happiness, even if it meant moving across the lake. I can imagine that having a large body of water between you can be very healing! I believe houses have spirit, and you can usually tell, especially with the older ones, which are inviting and those that aren't. They may not have everything that people expect today with new homes, but sometimes that promotes closeness in a way you wouldn't expect. For example, we don't have a master bath, so I call our main bathroom the ''Family Master''. It has all the amenities for everyone to enjoy, and was less expensive to remodel one bathroom.

Gardengrl, it's good that you've looked into how the dysfunction happened. (I'm not sure I want to know.) At least you know what to avoid! Yes, very strong boundaries are so important, aren't they?

You know, it's funny but I told my sister once that I thought our family was very normal when I was growing up. It was the loving families that seemed abnormal to me, since I didn't know that many of them. Not having come from one, made me certain I would change all that once I became an adult. I can say I am happily married, and expect to remain so. Having respect is very important to me, and it's a two-way street.

It's not a huge number, but I am struck by how many of us have had to deal with this. Do you think this is more common than we realize?

I've been doing some more thinking about this thread. I do think that, looking at people I know, it seems that there are a lot of freaked-up individuals out there. It may be because we live in little family modules, away from other people. We are not raised by "the village" or even extended families.

In a situation where more familiar adults and lots more children are around to gauge a child's behavior and actions, it could be that aberrant behavior is caught and helped/stopped early on. But that in our nuclear family world, there are only mom and dad, and they may not have the time or the experience to equip them to right a straying child. And I also believe that aberrant behaviors are more widely accepted and children in the nuclear family era have been extremely coddled and isolated. With mom and dad both working, fewer children to interact with in the family, and no one else around, more children grow up with bad behaviors that were never put into check, and turn into adults with full-blown cracked personalities. (And schools can in no way take the place of family.)
This is the analysis I've come up with to answer the question of why it seems that there are so many screwed up people out there - but I may be totally blowing wind, LOL.

Anyway, kids can't always make the determination between "right" and "wrong" - they can be affected for life by being around a parent or sibling with an abusive personality. I believe that children go through a quiet personal hell in these situations. The people they instinctively trust and depend on are the ones treating them in not so nice ways. It can twist the psyche and soul of the strongest child, and manifest itself at any time and in many ways.

Wow - this has really been a great place to come:))) Thank you all, I am reading all the stories, comments and advise and is very helpful and I am very appreciative.

It does not hurt to recognise that you are the victim of abuse and have wounds to tend to. Shutting the door on our abusers is a great first step but the road back to health is a long sometimes lonely one.

Watch your back. Abusers don't like to see their playthings "escape". Beware of strangers that seem to "know" things about you. For years I was confronted by strange people that would berate me. At first I assumed it was mistaken identity or somebody with a couple screws missing. Now I know it was lies my mother told people to control me. I found myself fired from jobs on the very first day, job offers revoked, and dates shut the door in my face and only much later figured out only my mother had access to the detail of my life that would allow such sabatoge. I will probably sleep with a loaded gun for the rest of my life... which is part of the wounds that I have.

A narcissist will be the center of attention or they will burn the place down. Probably does some to explain the current state of our national economy?

be safe...

: )
lyra

Michael, you too? I'm amazed at how many of us there are. I don't wonder that you're right about the state of economy!

Annie, I agree it probably is easier said than done. It just depends on the personalities involved. I guess I'm lucky that I have a crusty personality. :) I wouldn't put up with physical abuse from anyone, so I certianly won't put up with emotional abuse from anyone. And when people came back with "But she's your mothre, you HAVE to love her!" my response is "No, I don't."

Frankly, though, I don't see much difference between what is now called NPD and just plain meanness. I'm really not surpised that it's so common. Modern society as a whole has become more narcissistic and power hungry.

I would say my sister has it. The world revolves around her. She really can't see it any other way. I am glad we live on two separate coasts and only see each other every couple of years.

I have another question. I took the quiz that claire_de_luna posted and I got all zeros (0) for everything. So what is the opposite of Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
Clare

Clare, I looked at that quiz. It's weirdly skewed to reflect one extreme or the other. There is no middle ground. I wouldn't worry about it!

Im really curious are all of us who have sister with NPD the younger sister? I am and I was always the bigger target for her than my younger brother.

Claudia

My sister who has it is my fraternal twin. She has always had it as far back as I can remember. I was always in her shadow until I got married and moved to the West Coast. She demanded all the attention.
Clare

Yes, younger here by 4 1/2 years. Lyra, I am learning the truth of your post presently and is not pretty.

One of the symptoms of NPR is a lack of empathy. They don't care how you feel so they would kill you without remorse. Family members are often the closest people to them and the people they most want to worship them. When a family member has it the very person you expect to trust and protect you wants to damage you so they can be "better" then you. LOL!... if that bit of crazy makes any sense.

If you are in that spot consider alternate cell phones and mailboxes for your important communications. A simple thing like throwing away a credit card bill can cause you all kinds of grief... that you might mistake for your own failure. If you are a spouse/dependant and then have to ask them for money to cover "your" mistake they then own you. One of the things that will make the NPR most angry at that point is if you somehow earn the money to pay the bill... their victim is escaping. Jessy's term "emotional vampire" paints a very accurate portrait... they will kill you but prefer to feed for awhile first.

lyra

The lack of empathy is a huge deal!

I remember vividly in counseling how our therapist tried to get ExHubby to understand my feelings about some of the things he had done. She'd ask him how he thought I felt, and he'd answer with his own thoughts, justifications and rationale for his behavior. The public-consumption version of why he did it. (Picture Mom asking 6 year-old Bobby how Baby Sister felt when he snatched a toy away, and Bobby saying defensively that he didn't want her to slobber on it!)

She'd clarify -- "No, I mean how do you think your wife felt?" He'd look genuinely confused, sense a trap. (Bobby knows Mom isn't happy...) Then "Well I think she probably thought" and then something about my intellectual interpretation of his actions.

She'd try to clarify again "Your wife's feelings, not her thoughts. Do you understand the difference?" and he could never get anywhere even close!. Couldn't even really understand the distinction between thoughts and feelings or why it was meaningful. His emotional vocabulary was 'happy, sad, angry and jealous' -- that's about it...

Years later, in "Parenting Counselling", the counsellors again tried to get him to understand and acknowledge the validity of another person's viewpoint with the scripted beginning of: "You said 'X Y Z' and this makes sense to me because..." He couldn't even force the words out of his mouth! He'd start with "You said 'X Y Z'" (getting it twisted) and that's completely ridiculous because..." Could not even force the words out!

I suspect it's probably pretty rare to even get an NPD person into therapy and thereby get a tiny glimpse into their inner workings. But if/when you do, it's eye-opening!

In a rubber-room sort of way ;-)

The NPRs that I know have a way of blaming others for their problems. One of my huge mistakes in life was accepting some of that blame. I thought if somehow I did well in school and worked much harder at my jobs that approval and comfort would be had. NPRs sabotage the compromise method of resolving interpersonal conflicts. NPRs treat a relationship like a battle to be won rather then a home to be built. Normal methods of being social like extra effort and compromise simply become weapons at the NPRs disposal.

I don't think there is any cure. NPRs are often aware that they are selfish greedy people but simply don't care. The only time I've seen an NPR cry is when their victim has escaped. Not a cry of pain by one of frustration from not having someone to worship and obey them.

So true Lyra the only time my sister cried was in total frustration when I dared talk back to her. She would go on for weeks telling anyone and everyone just how I had hurt her feelings. She would go on and on to me about how I couldnt possibly have said that to her and couldnt I just say I was wrong until finally she would say she had forgiven me because she knew I didnt mean it. She never could except that maybe it was her who owed me an apology. She wanted her victim back!

Yes, they need a victim but they also always the victim too because it gets them attention to be the wronged one.

...and I'm feelin the empathy thing;) lol Seriously, it is so true. This is why I call it a sickness of the soul...how do you fix that? You can't teach people to be kind and have feelings and be caring to others.

Well, HERE WE GO AGAIN. This time, it's the in-law side of the family. You know, the traditional narcissistic male. (There's two of them, out of three brothers.) DH's oldest brother is in town, after driving over 700 miles to attend an uncle's 90th birthday party. He only called his brother to ask directions to two different places, and without providing much information. (It's time once again for us to bail him out, provide or take care of him.) Never, ''Let's get together'' or ''I'd like to see you'' or ''Let's have breakfast''. We stopped the expectations long ago of showing up at our home without calling first, or providing a free bed and breakfast for three days at a time without any expectation of engaging in conversation. (That's right...I forgot...we don't have conversations. Instead we listen to him talk!) We also stopped driving three hours one way to provide transportation for his mother for her trip from our airport to his house. OH, and picking her up again to take her home! (All while she talked about her wonderful family who lives elsewhere.)

UGH.

I'm resentful that he has shown up for the distant uncle's birthday party, when he didn't show up for the 80th birthday party we gave his own mother. (Nothing was required but his presence. No excuses were provided either.) I'm tired of my MIL being the family's ''messenger'' of all the hurt feelings. (I do not choose to disrespect her by sharing with her the burden of my feelings!)

I no longer attend the forced family get-togethers. I'm sorry for my DH, who has to put up with the behavior, but he's managing it the best way he can by making his own choices when/where to attend and for how long.

Now that I have more knowledge of what narcissism really IS, it's helpful, but Still So Frustrating. I really hate this ''family'' time of year. Blaming me for the problem is fine; I'm used to it. Ignoring my husband though...that is inexcusable to me. I still get mad; he's accepting. I wish I could be more like him but I'm not.

If his family would talk TO each other, instead of ABOUT each other, everyone would have better relationships. What I have come to understand is that it isn't ever going to change, is it?

I should know this already, but please remind me again why we are the family pariahs. Refusing to be used is truly the mortal sin, isn't it?

Just wanted to thank you all for this thread. I have a good friend who has always had problems with his mother. At first, he thought it was the religion/gay issue, but it seems that there is more to it than that. She is so controlling and devious and almost seems evil... very selfish. I forwarded this thread to him and let him read it, and he said he knows for sure that his mom has NPD. I mainly forwarded it so he'd realize that there are other people that don't have a perfect relationship with their families, but he got so much more out of it than that! He knows what to call her "problem" now, and he can look for ways to research it. He dealt with it today by turning the phone off and downing a bottle of wine, but he doesn't do that often LOL He thinks avoidance is going to be the best way, so he doesn't have to deal with stress. She sent him money in a birthday card, and he actually mailed it back to her!

So, just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted here. Your stories and advice have helped a good friend of mine more than you will ever know. He has also clicked on the links and found them helpful too.

vacuumfreak: I'm so glad your friend could find a bit of information and insight into what some of us have had to deal with -- putting a label on it is a good first step. Good on him for returning the money (that's one of the NPD's controlling tools); disassociating is a good technique but I think you have to be either committed to it or willing to deal with personal associations and confrontations. It's either one or the other/ no half way, I don't think. It hasn't worked very well for my husband and me with his brother. For now we must have associations with him; when we're done with the parents' will and trust issues and finalizing their affairs -- we will never have contact with the brother again -- done! A sad but very real story about NPD and how it affects family members.
Good luck to your friend!

Wow all I can say is that this post has been a real eye opener. I know that I have talked about my problems with my brother and could never figure out what was the problem. He verbally attacks without any notice and the attacks are viscious. I decided this Thanksgiving that we would stay at home and have our own holiday with the DH and the kids and I can honestly say that it was the best holiday ever. No hollaring, no bickering, and best of all no rude comments. My brother will bring up things from the past 10 years and harp on them. Will call names and thinks that he is the perfect one. I have taken the first step in trying to avoid him, but the hard thing is that I am also missing out on the rest of the family. Reading everyones posts makes me realize that I need to work on getting stronger and standing up to him. My dad exhibits similar behaviors and this last week when he ranted at me, I told him that I didn't need to listen to him and hung up on him, several times.

My question is how do I deal with family events without completely cutting my self away. It is only the two of them that seem to ruin everything. The rest of the family just ignores him. I used to think that by ignoring him then they were reinforcing the behavior. I am starting to see that they aren't going to change and I need to do what I need to do. Any advice would be appreciated. I have been going to therapy for a year now because of dealing with their nastiness and now that I am starting to see that I am not the only one dealing with this it is easier, but what can I do to stop the hurt??

Stacie

Stacie: That kind of verbal abuse turns from hurt to sadness, but probably won't go away. For as long as you can remember, you will have memories of the painful side of dealing with NPD's. But you can control how you react from now on and don't allow yourself to be hurt by their nastiness. Be prepared to just walk away, hang up, drive off -- and know that it's not because of you. It's because of their disorder. I know what you mean about the ranting and name calling and dredging up old issues (and lies). Personally I would not allow my children to witness such behavior. Unfortunately, with NPD's you never know what's going to set them off. Because you can't predict their behavior, the best thing to do would be to stay away. I don't know you, of course, but I think you would be happier by doing so.

stacey, I think you're on the right track, avoiding your brother and telling your dad you won't allow his behavior towards you. You can't change these people, you can only change how YOU react to them.

vacuumf, how amazing that this thread helped your friend....

Vacuumfreak, I'm grateful to know that it's helped. Knowing I'm not alone in this has helped me immensely! I know when I was able to put a name to the problem, it helped me see things more clearly for what it is (which truly isn't about me).

Stacie, I don't do family events. I refer to those as Forced Family Get-Togethers, which are never good for me. The NPD's will never get enough attention when the entire family is there, and will continue to act out. Instead, I choose to deal with those I can actually have a relationship with. If I'm feeling strong enough, I'll have contact at some point with the NPD, but only briefly, and completely on my terms.

I try to remember I am only required to take care of myself, in the best way I know how. (After all, that's what they do!) You can still have family time, just without the disruptors. Then you can say, ''A lovely time was had by all...''

AKK I posted a reply and then it said I needed to log in so here it goes. I want to thank everyone that posted, I could swear you were talking about my dad and brother in each and every post. I am doing my best to try and stop this before it affects the next generation, my kids. My mom even surpisingly made the comment that by avoiding and confronting and not having my kids around this that maybe they won't grow up thinking this is normal.

When I was in treatment I had to wear a shield where everyone put strengths on it so that I could stand up to my family. I knew for a while that was going to be my biggest struggle. We went to my folks for Thanksgiving yesterday and no hollaring and no bad words. I just avoided my brother and after telling my dad off and not going to the official Thanksgiving I think he might start to see that I am not putting up with that behavior. If they don't see it, then they won't see me and I will either leave or call them on it. It is hard because I grew up thinking that this behavior was normal. My husband has been helping me see that not all families belittle, hollar, fight and try and verbally attack each other. My hope and prayer is to stop this cycle and that my kids won't have to grow up thinking this is normal.

Stacie
aka the Warrior Princess

Narcissists aren't just "difficult";
they're abusive, & they're brutal, & if you don't reflect glory on them & keep yourself in the background, they'll become enraged & annihilate you like you're an alien invador.

"the very person you expect to trust and protect you wants to damage you so they can be "better" then you."

My mother would brutally sabotage me in secret so she could "rescue" me-
always in a very public way where my aunts, teachers, & others would praise her for being such a good mother!

We learn sick coping mechanisms when we live with narcissists, especially if they're powerful figures in our lives from the time we're babies-

& everybody, every small critter in the world, expects to be protected when he/she calls for "mama".

When your mama hates you for
1) outgrowing the baby stage when you earned her a lot of attention ("oh, there you are with your brand-new baby") &
2) garnering some positive attention for your own self ("oh, Sylvia can speak in whole sentences"),
& the only way you can survive is to
be submissive,
give her credit for everything you achieve,
& be constantly alert to her changing moods & deflect her rage onto something else...
you grow up with deformed "coping behaviors" that make you vulnerable to being used, being victimized, & having stress-related health problems.

& bunny's right, they'll be the center of attention or they'll burn the house down.

My mother's version of burning the house down was to destroy my father, to nearly destroy me, & to drive lifelong wedges between me & my brothers.

She once told her sister, with satisfaction, that "those boys are going to keep on until they run Sylvia off".

& they did.

My mother died a couple of years ago, & I never confronted her;
when she was in her right mind, I was terrified of her, & by the time I realized how thoroughly she had abused & terrified me & how much damage she had done, she couldn't recognize me.

& even then, the last time I saw her, when she was tied into her wheelchair & couldn't have "gotten" me, I didn't sleep that night.

Wow Sylvia, you are so right and communicated that very well.

I feel for you (and me) and anyone who has ever dealt with NPD. It's too bad they can't see that their meanness isn't serving them well.

Mine has since apologized, asked forgiveness and is currently acting normally. Sadly, I don't trust that won't change, and when I least expect it.

I no longer rush to aid. I refuse to feel guilty about it. It's time for me to take care of myself.

Thanks, Claire.

"I no longer rush to aid."

I wonder if that's part of it, too, that anxiety to fix everything, to smooth things over.

just read a true-crime book called "Murder in Little Egypt" (I often read old books, get 'em at the thrift shop or library sale so I always have something to read).

The murders were in the 1980's, & I guess that was before NPD was a recognized condition.

which, I think, makes the portrayal of the father even more riveting;

the author described something for which he had no name, but he described it meticulously.

He also described the wife & children in heartbreaking detail;
this is what happens to people who live with this.

good book to read if you want to scare yourself, make yourself angry, get a devastating insight into the dynamics of what happens to a family when a spouse/parent has this condition.

I found this interesting article on Body Language and Disorders. I had asked eariler what was the direct opposite of NPD and here is what it said, "For instance: people with Avoidant Personality Disorder and patients with its diametrical opposite, the Narcissistic Personality Disorder, comport themselves differently."

Just FYI.
Clare