Dave--(or anyone else?): I am really confused by these "weeping" Norway spruce cultivars. You show one picture of a 'Reflexa' that was not staked but is growing erect, then another picture of the same kind of tree that had to be staked. So, does this tree grow erect sometimes, and not all the time? As for the P. abies 'Frohburg' I find confusing statements. You say it needs to be staked or it will grow prostrate. Iseli nursery, and a couple of other places on-line, says it is an upright grower. Elsewhere I see a cultivar name P. abies 'Frohburg Prostrata,' with the 'Prostrata' sugggesting a flopping tree. So what am I supposed to think? Now in the Gotelli collection at the National Arboretum in DC they have two P. abies 'Inversa' trees. Both of these have picturesque irregular habits, but they are definately not prostrate. One, or I think both, have multiple erect trunks growing upright with severely pendulous side branches. I would like to grow one of these, but several sources say they will not grow upright. I have also seen another P. abies 'Inversa,' or so it is labelled, in the courtyard of the Winterthur museum in Delaware. This tree is also growing upright without any staking. And there is another similar tree growing prominently in the National Memorial Park in Fairfax, VA, but this tree has no label at all. I don't know if you have seen my postings in the trees forum under the topic "Large Willow" where I comment on the rampant confusion about golden weeping willows, but I may be even more confused and frustrated in trying to get information about the growth habit of these so-called weeping varieties of NS. I want to grow one or more, but what do I buy? And from whom? Are those I saw labelled 'Inversa' actually something that I can buy as 'Inversa," or is that an incorrect name? And this 'Frohburg' thing? Is there a 'Frohburg' that grows erect, and then another that is 'Frohburg Prostrata' that must always be staked--or which is more properly meant to grow along the ground. Of course, I assume that any of these that are potentially erect growers probably must be staked for a time, but from what I have seen with my own eyes (at the Nat Arb, and at Winterthur, and at the Nat Mem Park), at least one, and maybe more than one of these cultivars, can grow on their own after a period of time being staked, in at least some irregular erect fashion. So, is 'Inversa' one of these? Or 'Frohburg' or what? I have seen them, want one, but what one, or ones is/are it/they?? H E L P!! this is driving me nuts!! --Spruce

Pinetree30: You suggest that late setting winter buds, or growth extensions of the original shoots that continue for longer, are more likely to have frost kill the terminal bud. Well, that doesnt fit with any observations I have made. In fact, the growth of the Norway spruce shoots on my timberland in the mountains of western MD continues, most years, into August, and I see less terminal bud failure there than I see here in Winchester, VA, where the shoot extension of Norway spruce is generally finished by early July. And the winters are much, much more harsh in the MD mountains, with temps of 15 below happening fairly often, and an all time low of minus 40 has been recorded. The growth of the terminal shoots in Western MD is generally somewhat more than I generally see in Winchester. In addition, the spruce that had the free growth last year--about a dozen had substantial free growth that began after the initial shoot elongated--set their winter buds much later than the other spruces that simply elongated their original shoots in the usual manner. One, the one that had total growth of close to four feet, did not stop that growth and set any visible terminal but until early September. All the spruce that had the free growth and set winter buds late, had their terminal buds grow just fine this year, and the extent of the growth was about the same as the other young Norway spruce. And as for the spruce pictured in this topic here. I have seen this literally hundreds of times--spruce tops that look exactly like this. At about this time of year, depending on the location, one or more of these will start to turn upward. Usually more than one will begin to turn upward, but one will usually be clearly more erect and by this time in another year, will be a clearly dominant leader. Anderson: Please take a picture or two in a few weeks and post so we can all see them. At that time there will be one or more of the side shoots more or less erect, but it will still have a curve in it. Then take another picture at the end of September, or later. At this point it should be even more erect and have less curve. Finally, after the shoots have elongated next year--say by the middle of August--take another picture for us. At that point the new leader should be nearly "ramrod straight." We have had discussions about Norway spruce re-establishing a lost leader several times, but usually not with pictures like you have given us, and never with any follow-up pictures. Oh, pinetree: You say I "attribute" the long shoots to free growth. I posted a topic about this a few months ago--and yes, finally, with pictures. I will re-post in that topic in a month or two, with a new picture or two, and you can see them and judge for yourself what was happening--whether it looks to you like free growth or not. If the pictures I have posted are not enough, I actually took quite a few and can post some more from last year. But most of the long shoots I see on Norway spruce--those of 30 to 36 inches or more--are not the result of free growth. I have observed occasional free growth for years, but it is rather unusual. This last year those I observed in my planted spruce here in Winchester were the nmost "dramatic" I have seen. But the 12 or so that had substantial free growth--averaging about 10 inches or so per tree, were out of about 350 I have planted here. There were a number of others that had additional small extra shoots, both on the leader and on side branches, but I have not counted those. --spruce

at that age ... they are too large to move .. and no tree should be 2 feet from a house ... want to see the pix.. but i bet the answer is.. they both need to go ... that said.. you could just start learning how to prune on them.. and see where you get ... i highly doubt they created the foundation crack ... but they could take advantage of it.. in the ensuing decades ... ken

Ken-adrian it is not telephone-poled. The leader is only slightly flexible, and bending up a bit could keep it from dragging the ground. it It has just been planted after 3 years in a pot. Hurricanes were an issue in it’s beachside home in CT. Not a worry now. The owners are sentimental about it, it must stay. This is the only logical spot in the small yard with enough sun. My suggested location, not the client’s. I just want to make the best of it. And NOOO I dont want to move it! If I dont have to. It is heavy! I just want to be clear on my options for pruning & training it. 20 year window is all I am concerned with. Your 30 year tree gives me some insight. Any idea on it’s current width? Johnfuda has me concerned, but I am under the impression this is a tree that you can somewhat control the size of with selective pruning or train it as it grows along. Could yearly spading/root pruning keep it from upheaving the patio? I thought spruce were very slow growing, especially if they are not in their native setting. and before planting, roots were circling! I am guessing it is a picea abies ‘pendula’ too. But all pruning/training info I find seems to reference that tree’s first 3 years. This tree is older than that. I am intrigued by the 2nd leader suggestion. I know how to do that on other evergreens. As for letting them battle it out for space with the underplantings— well, in a tiny city garden every inch is precious. I only want to sacrifice the area if doing otherwise will create a stupid looking evergreen.