hi

it is hard to speculate without a picture ...

initial spring growth of the leader is straight up .. with secondary branching usually occurring later ...

is it possible it has already done that???

otherwise.. personally.. i would never have bought a 12 foot tree and transplanted such ... if we are to presume that a tree is twice as big underground as above.. you should be able to contemplate ... no mater how big the spade.. how much of its rootball was removed ..

as such.. it could take this 12 footer.. 3 to 5 years to recover from the insult ... and start growing the way it is supposed to ...

again.. without a pic.. its all speculation ...

you will need a photo hosting site like photobucket.com .... there should be a couple thousand posts on how to post pix... if you use the search function ...

continued good luck

ken

Ken,

I will take a look and see if the initial spring growth is already complete or not. No i wouldnt have bought a tree if it didnt have a leader, but ive been busy with work and landscaping that i finally just realized this about the NS.

I have a photobucket account and i will take some pics when i go home for lunch.

Ken,

Here are the photos of the NS and i also included photos of my two concolor firs.

Layout of area

Concolor Fir Photos

Norway Spruce

Top of NS

Hey anderson. With the good pictures you've provided, it appears that the terminal bud died for some reason, prior to commencing growth. I was going to suggest bird damge as this can indeed cause the loss of a terminal leader, but seeing it has the bud, albeit in a dried up condition, leads to the thought that the bud died out somehow.

FWIW, one or another of the lateral shoots will take over. It may seem weird at first but in time, you, or anybody else, will not be able to tell this happened.

+oM

hey

i agree with tom ...

ignore it for two years .... it will get its act together ...

in two years.. you might need to get a pole saw ... and reduce the new dominant leaders to a single ... trees are rather aggressive in such.. and you wont want 2 or 3 leaders up there ...

though i would never have invested in transplanting giants like that.. YOU GOT SOME MIGHTY NICE TREES THERE...and some great growth for this year ...

make sure they are watered deeply.. and then nearly allowed to dry .... we want water throughout the entire root zone for the next year or two .. but we dont want to drown it ...

and if mother nature cares to provide it.. then dont over water ...

on even small transplants that seems to happen .. the first year or two .... my best guess.. because there will never be an direct answer .. is a hard frost or freeze.. just at the wrong moment in time.. and yes.. it can affect only one tree of the lot ... or the bird theory.. or injury from shipping ... or it just hates you ...

i dont know why you threw in the concolor pix.. but they also look happy ....

ken

Thanks for the input fellas, you put my mind at ease about the terminal leader. Would i be correct to assume that i will get more horizontal growth the next couple of years as compared to vertical since the terminal leader bud dried up?

I will certainly make sure to remove one or more of the leaders which comes up Ken and thank you for your input on that as well.

Thank you for your kind words about the trees, my wife and i wanted ones that we could enjoy while we reside at our home. We probably will only be here for 8-11 years and that is why we went with larger trees in order to provide some privacy and these three also help block that NW wind which we always seem to have during the winter.

As for watering deeply i havent watered for the last 3-4 weeks simply because of all the rains we have had, something like 7" already in June when we normally only get 3" for the whole month. One of the concolor firs and the norway are located near a little bit lower ground so they get a little bit more water then average. I was worried at first but with some of these heavy rains, the water just goes right on by them and into the next yard.

When it isnt steadily raining, how much water should i give these trees each week if we only recieve a total of 1" per week of rain? Is it ok if i water them with a Ross root feeder (no fert though) since i can place it closer to where the roots are located or is there a better suggestion?

Thanks!

PS: I included the pictures of the concolor just as a point of reference. From what ive read, the NS should grow quicker then the concolors would that be accurate to assume? One last question (enough already right...) The concolors budded out and started growing earlier then the norway spruce this spring; pretty common for the norway to take longer this?

WE have no limit on the number of questions that can be asked, anderson! Unless you want to know my mother's maiden name or something;^)

My usual response to the "how much water" question is: The equivalent of an inch of precip/week. This allows for natural rainfall and additional water that you would provide. I am not sure how one would determine this amount with the rootfeeder, though. Still, that doesn't sound like a bad idea-using that in order to be certain you're soaking the original rootball. Otherwise, leaving a hose running slowly on top of the rootball, using a small, circular-pattern sprinkler, soaker hose......all different ways to arrive at the same point.

One final comment: Like Ken, I generally like to work with smaller stock starting out. And generally, successful transplanting is more likely when starting with small stuff. But....conifers are usually even more shallowly rooted than broadleaved trees and as such, make good candidates for moving at a larger size. This you have done and the new growth alone tells you that this is working out well.

Oh, and as far as which species normally greens out first, I would have expected the NS to be that one. Hmm........?

+oM

If you are keeping that lawn that lush all season the trees will probably get enough water. But pull the grass back farther away from them for likely enhanced results. Replace grass with mulch, 6' grass-free areas around each specimen would not be excessive.

a few more thoughts ...

first.. go spend a couple bucks and buy a rain gauge .... better to KNOW how much rain you get.. rather than guess ...

second... kill the grass abutting the plant.. and add a one foot skirt of mulch ... oops.. what bboy said.. lol ...

once the rains stop ... insert finger to second knuckle.. and check the dampness of the soil ... every few days.. until you start to begin to understand how moisture moves thru your soil ...

water when the soil is getting hot or dry ... damp soil is cool.. so if it is getting hot under the mulch.. water is usually needed within a few days ... and then water deeply ... and start over with the finger ...

lawn watering ... in the hot midwest.. is a good indicator of requisite water.. but that might not mean the soil a foot or two down stays damp .... and that is where your trees need to grow the roots that were cut off in transplant .... e.g. in my yellow mineral sand.. after a rain.. a foot down.. it can be near bone dry ... and that would be the root zone ...

in my sand.. i would plant the tree at the proper height.. but i would have to make a moat ring about 1 to 2 feet out.. so i could lay down about 5 gals of water ... the sand being nearly water repellent by August ... this insured.. with the super high drainage.. first that the water would not run off ... but second.. that i could insure that it was getting down into the root zone ... two or three re-fillings .. [and dont forget the mulch, which i swear absorbed the first 5 gals of water] .... and i would be all set for a week or two ... and sometimes three.. if we got some rain ... i am just relating this.. as an example of how i had to figure out my soil.. in my yard.. with my trees ... and that is how you are going to have to do it for yours ...

as for the leader ... the first long lateral.. will start growing vertical.. and if you are just patient.. you will be amazed how.. by fall it will be on its way ... and then.. next spring.. a couple of the new sprouts will also want to be the leader ... and it will be for you.. the following spring.. to truncate or remove all but one ... at height.. it is difficult to cut them when they are too soft... as a 10 foot pole.. can snap off the one you want.. while removing others.. ergo.. i give them a year to harden off...

ken

I have a rain gauge, but i havent gotten in the practice of recording the measurements. 4-6 weeks ago i was having to water the lawn and plants due to lack of water but as of late we have been getting more then enough rain. I already practice the finger check method but thanks for the advice and more people should do that.

I plan on mulching all of my trees but i need to get some landscape edging in first and that is my next project after my sitting walls are complete (Friday). Would a 6' diameter circle be enough mulch for these three conifers, a 2.5" diameter red maple, and a 4.5" white oak?

We have an expansive clay soil, had to pour larger footings when constructing our house, that will hold onto water for quite some time but doesnt readily accept it either. Its interesting to work with to say the least...

Funny you should mention one of the horizontal leaders starting to go vertical to take the place of the missing leader. It appears as if one is already starting to!

Speaking of watering, is there a cut off date for watering like there is with fertilizing (if you chose to fertilize) in order for the plants to harden up for the winter? Most literature ive read says anywhere from July 15 to August 15th is the last time you should apply fertilizer. Thanks for the input

It appears as if one is already starting to!

===>>> yes.. in one of your posts.. i think.. you suggested they werent even growing... and they are.. and they are responding ... you really have to relax with trees .. they work in a time frame that isnt the same as ours ...

IN MOST OF OUR OPINIONS.... >>>>NEVER >>>>EVER >>>> FERTILIZE A TREE/CONIFER ... unless a soil test tells you otherwise ...

as for water.. IT IS IMPERATIVE that the conifers go into dormancy .... [where are you again ... would help if you put it next to your name ....] .. especially in the great white frozen soil north .... full of water ... so we usually suggest that they are watered very late into fall ... INSURING that they do not freeze into an ice cube ... desicating winter winds.. and sun.. can suck all the water out of the needles at the worst possible time.. when the roots are dormant ... leading to winter burn... in warmer zones... i dont know ...

how much you really need to water late in the year.. when the days are cool/cold.. and the nights even colder.. is left to your interpretation of your soil ... in my z5 sand.. a good deep drink in late Oct is probably going to be it for the year ... but if Nov is some weird drought ... then i might consider more ... and this is ONLY while they are in the 'establishment phase' ....

its a real delicate balance between putting the hose away.. or blowing out the irrigation lines.. and getting that last watering .... especially on a big lot ..

ken

There are under lying circumstances why this occures. Some mentioned in this thread some not.

I had three that didn't push central leader growth this year and these are established conifers. I have inspected all three and could not find any reason for this occurrence. It just happens.

I don't mess around to see if a new leader will develop. I train up a new one immediately while the wood is still pliable if I want continued vertical growth. If the wood hardens off then it is much harder to train and usually a off set in vertical growth is the result of delayed action to fix this issue. The option is yours to remedy now or wait for a new leader to develop. 50-50 chance it will occur. If mine I would find a 8 foot step ladder and train up and avoid the guessing game.

Anyway three photos for how it is done.

Dave Picea orientalis 'Pendula' Central leader is green but did not develop.
{{gwi:741903}}


Picea abies 'Perry's Golden'
{{gwi:741904}}


Picea omorika 'Pendula Burns'
{{gwi:741905}}

Ken: Profile is updated with location. Im in central Iowa which is zone 5a, it gets pretty cold here during the winter.

If i interpreted your post correctly, i only need to give them a deep drink of water when they are establishing to prep them for winter? What about when they are established, still a good idea? Does the same principle hold true for deciduous trees (oaks/maples) which will lose their leaves?

Ive never seen a tree "forced" to make a new leader like in your pictures, thats kind of interesting! Im not sure how feasible that would be for me to do as my norway is on a hill and pretty tall but i will see if i can come up with a way. Thanks for the input!

I disagree with the analysis. The 2009 leader on this tree is extraordinarily long. Let your eye follow from the top downwards to the first actual whorl of branches -- not simple unbranched shoots, but actual branches that have put out secondary branches of their own this year. That point is where the 2009 leader begins. I believe this leader grew for many weeks, stimulated by heavy watering and fertlizing. Thus the tender tip was nipped by frost, removing any possibility of further growth of that leader. The only time I have seen such long spruce leaders is on blue spruce that was heavily watered and fertilized.
I strongly doubt that you will get a near-vertical leader turning up anywhere on this tree. It should be happening now, but is not. All the branches along the leader are staying horizontal.

It's worth noting that, if you don't want the hassle of one, this website water.weather.gov has charts (under precipitation) that, in my experience, are almost as accurate as a rain gauge. I had one for about a year but it froze in the winter and cracked. Whatever water.weather.gov reported was never more than 20% off from what my rain gauge showed, and usually it was spot-on. Of course, it might depend on how accurately radar can measure rain in a given area. It might be less accurate on certain terrains, like mountains.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://water.weather.gov

Anderson,

About watering:
Continue to water.
When it's starting to freeze at winter, water the hell out of your trees so that when they go into winter they are "protected" i.e., water/ice gives off heat. Non-watered root-systems dry up like a cube of, well, "dry soil."

You don't need to continue doing this after a few years.

It's always friendly to give trees a nice splash of water during prolonged droughts though. Especially during their first years of establishment. I don't know, maybe the first four years would be more than adequate.

Dax

I have been growing Norway spruce trees--literally thousands of them--for almost 40 years. I have seen terminal bud failure like this many, many times. I would guess that the percentage of time that the tree establishes a nice single leader all by itself is something like 99% plus. Occasionally a tree will develop a double leader, but most of the time that this happens--maybe 80% of the time--after three years one will take over, and the other will slowly move aside and become a side branch. If a double leader persists, you can easily cut one side off with a pole pruner.

Leave the top of this tree as it is. Come back to us with new pics in three or four weeks. I bet they will show that one of the side shoots--probably the one highest on the stem--will have turned up to a leader position.

As for the growth on the leader being unusually long--I dont think so. I have often had shoots 3.5 feet or more--occasionally over 4 feet. Last year some of my NS had extensive "free growth" after the initial shoot extended, with the growth of one for the year being about 4 feet. (Actually, this year I have had a couple more with extensive free growth--I will post about that later.) The terminal bud did not begin to set until September. This year that late setting terminal bud on that tree has grown an additional 2 feet plus. No problem. The cause of the bud failure? I dont know, but I have seen it often.

--spruce

responding to Spruceman -- "bud failure" doesn't say much and is not a diagnosis or explanation because there are too many possible meanings and causes. I'm suggesting frost damage because it is consistent with the chain of events I am hypothesizing, but just looking at the photo is not really enough to be sure. The long growths you attribute to free growth actually make my point. Spruces out of the seedling stage do not in their natural habitats normally grow long summer shoots, which is what free growth produces in pines, for example. What I am suggesting is that the free growth is being stimulated by heavy watering and fertilizing that prevents buds from setting early enough to mature and become frost resistant. Ever checked to see how many of your very long leaders were among those of your trees with "bud failure"?
When a dead terminal bud leads to upturned branches, it is usually pretty quick for the tender uppermost shoots that are still growing to turn upwards. Perhaps there will be a delay; time will tell.
Now it's possible that Norway spruce bends the "spruce rules" and that this has not been noticed by the foresters of the past two centuries; or that I have not noticed their studies. Culturing trees in foreign habitats often produces anomalous growths.

Dave, can you show us a total photo of your Picea orientalis 'Pendula'?
I don't think it's the true one...
Thanks!

Pinetree30:

You suggest that late setting winter buds, or growth extensions of the original shoots that continue for longer, are more likely to have frost kill the terminal bud. Well, that doesnt fit with any observations I have made. In fact, the growth of the Norway spruce shoots on my timberland in the mountains of western MD continues, most years, into August, and I see less terminal bud failure there than I see here in Winchester, VA, where the shoot extension of Norway spruce is generally finished by early July. And the winters are much, much more harsh in the MD mountains, with temps of 15 below happening fairly often, and an all time low of minus 40 has been recorded. The growth of the terminal shoots in Western MD is generally somewhat more than I generally see in Winchester.

In addition, the spruce that had the free growth last year--about a dozen had substantial free growth that began after the initial shoot elongated--set their winter buds much later than the other spruces that simply elongated their original shoots in the usual manner. One, the one that had total growth of close to four feet, did not stop that growth and set any visible terminal but until early September. All the spruce that had the free growth and set winter buds late, had their terminal buds grow just fine this year, and the extent of the growth was about the same as the other young Norway spruce.

And as for the spruce pictured in this topic here. I have seen this literally hundreds of times--spruce tops that look exactly like this. At about this time of year, depending on the location, one or more of these will start to turn upward. Usually more than one will begin to turn upward, but one will usually be clearly more erect and by this time in another year, will be a clearly dominant leader.

Anderson: Please take a picture or two in a few weeks and post so we can all see them. At that time there will be one or more of the side shoots more or less erect, but it will still have a curve in it. Then take another picture at the end of September, or later. At this point it should be even more erect and have less curve. Finally, after the shoots have elongated next year--say by the middle of August--take another picture for us. At that point the new leader should be nearly "ramrod straight." We have had discussions about Norway spruce re-establishing a lost leader several times, but usually not with pictures like you have given us, and never with any follow-up pictures.

Oh, pinetree: You say I "attribute" the long shoots to free growth. I posted a topic about this a few months ago--and yes, finally, with pictures. I will re-post in that topic in a month or two, with a new picture or two, and you can see them and judge for yourself what was happening--whether it looks to you like free growth or not. If the pictures I have posted are not enough, I actually took quite a few and can post some more from last year.

But most of the long shoots I see on Norway spruce--those of 30 to 36 inches or more--are not the result of free growth. I have observed occasional free growth for years, but it is rather unusual. This last year those I observed in my planted spruce here in Winchester were the nmost "dramatic" I have seen. But the 12 or so that had substantial free growth--averaging about 10 inches or so per tree, were out of about 350 I have planted here. There were a number of others that had additional small extra shoots, both on the leader and on side branches, but I have not counted those.

--spruce

I have one NS that is now about 6 ft tall that does indeed have a double leader that I am pretty sure will have to be pruned. What happened was that a bud from the whorl on the 09 leader sprouted as "free growth" and grew straight up as a leader, putting on about 6" of growth by the end of the 09 growing season. This year, both the terminal bud on this "new" leader as well as the original terminal 09 bud both sprouted and grew straight up. Strangely, the original terminal bud only produced an 8" leader, while the free growth terminal bud produced a 24" leader. These are sure some interesting trees...

Good grief, I seem to have opened a Pandora's Box that I didn't know existed! I'll try to respond to spruceman's comments that seem germane to the discussion.

1. I suggested frost damage at the tip of what I hypothesized to be a shoot that grew for a very long season. All elongating shoots are less mature at their tips than further down, that's a universal rule partly by definition. And maturation (becoming sufficiently woody) is necessary to protect these tissues from frost. So if elongation goes on long enough, the newest shoot tissues are in danger of being nipped by an early frost. I didn't think that would be controversial, but rather is generally accepted. I did NOT say that the BUDS specifically were in danger. The reason is that....

2. Superficial observation does not tell you when a spruce bud is "set" (a really poor term we should not use, but are addicted to). That's because bud formation is a hidden process taking place beneath a cover of bud scales concealed by needles surrounding the shoot tip. Only dissections and anatomical observations can establish when a bud starts to form and when it is fully formed. So your conclusions that depend on when "bud set" occurs seem not to be based on the necessary type of examination.

3. Again "bud failure" is a hindrance, not a useful term here. And the photos don't show enough detail to shed light on what happened to those shoot tips.

4. "Free growth" is a term of art referring to simltaneous formation and growth of shoot components (needles and their internodes). This may occur after the terminal bud has stretched out to become the new shoot for the year; or it may be phased in with that elongation. Only dissection studies can clarify that. But in any case, how do you tell whether a given part of the terminal shoot has developed from shoot components that overwintered in the terminal bud; or that were spontaneously formed and grew to maturity during the growing season without having been present in an overwintering bud? If you cannot tell one from the other, all statements referring to free growth lack substance. I am willing to accept the likelihood of these long growths being due to the phenomenon of free growth (though I only know of sspruce free growth occurring in black spruce seedlings), and again I suggest that high water and fertilizer availability may have stimulated that free growth -- after all, SOMETHING DID.
One further point -- there has been a lot of research in the UK on growth of Sitka spruce, which I don't have much information on. Some of that may clarify the NS situation.

Spruce: I will take a picture in a week's time but as you stated the highest up lateral branch (first picture under norway spruce grouping of photos and is the lateral branch on the right hand side) has already started to turn upward.

Now for more questions :)

In the last picture of the NS series you can see the dried out terminal bud but below that are three buds which havent broken open.
-Are those buds for next year or will they dry out too?

How much longer do you expect the norway spruce as well as the two concolor firs to continue growing for the year? I live in Iowa and the summers can get rather warm and its to my understanding that conifirs will go dormant when its too warm outside. Our current temps are in the 80's for highs but we will reach the 90's in July through early September.

Pinetree30: I guess im not grasping what you are saying about the 2009 leader and excessively growing. I agree that the growth in 2009 on the NS starts where the first whorl is at and it is rather long (maybe 3 foot). The only thing is that this tree wasnt planted until early April 2010 in my yard. The tree received only water that mother nature provided and im pretty certain that it didnt get any fertilizer either when it was at the tree farm.

We did have a late frost this year but you would have thought more buds would have been affected but i havent seen any yet.

Anderson:

Any bud that did not grow this year will not grow. But new shoots could come out next year very near where those buds are. I would not worry at all about your tree--it will grow as if there were no bud problem.

As for how long in the season the growth continues: you will see no more new shoots this season. Will the shoots that have started to elongate grow any more? I dont know. Here in Winchester, VA, (a warm and dry Z6) the extension of Norway spruce shoots is about finished now. In the MD mountains, a moist Z5, it will continue for a few more weeks. The shoot that is turning upward on your tree may extend a bit more somewhat later than the others, but it will not put out any new needles this year. Norway spruce generally send out shoots from winter buds and these shoots elongate as the contents of the winter buds extend themselves. The "free growth" I have talked about, and possibly observed (in a few of my seedlings/saplings), continuing the growth after the initial shoot is fully extended, is very unusual The only times I think I have seen it on older trees is in response to some injury fairly early in the spring during the period that the initial shoots are elongating (apologies to pinetree30 if I am using incorrect terminology here).

--spruce

Hey anderson, fwiw, I have a large number of Norway spruce growing on my land in the "Near North" of Wisconsin, that is, the transition zone between farm land and the true vacation wonderland. This spring was brutal on many of them. First, much too warm weather in March and April, then a hard freeze in mid-May. Many new shoots were killed.

So what am I doing about this? Nothing. What can be done really. And as I'm sure Mr. Spruce would corroborate, nearly all of these trees have pushed out new growth from secondary buds anyway. I have also had a significant number of my trees topped by deer browsing. This in a field of alfalfa! You wouldn't think the deer would have to mess with my trees, but then, what don't they mess with!?!

Also damaged by that late hard freeze-I believe temps were in the LOW twenties!'were hybrid larch, also completely killed off in terms of their early new growth. These too have made a good comeback. Every time I am there, I check out how all these trees are doing in terms of establishing a new leader. It is coming along. I don't believe there is anything I can or should do to hasten this process.

+oM