So don’t open the thread Thistle Dew. It’s as simple as that. As long as it is civil conversation you DO NOT have the right to moderate.

The thread does give a very clear warning that it's political, so it's your choice whether to open it or not. Political topics are allowed on the KT.

I noticed you have "liked" the posts you agree with though so you can't mind too much!

Why does someone have to be strictly a Democrate or a Republican? Why can’t people look at canidates individually for what they stand for? That’s what I do. There are things from all parties Republican (the traditional not Frumpies), Democrat and Independent that I think can or do serve this country well. If a traditional Republican had a platform that I agreed with, I’d vote for him/her in a heartbeat, same with Democrat and Independent canidates.

Marilyn C, taking away the party from the man, I find it very hard to believe that you (ETA: or many of the posters here) agree with 90% of what frumpy is doing.

Please, do not take me seriously on what I said. I was just teasing with you, sorry if I offended anyone and yes, I did "like" some of the posts. That is allowed I hope. LOL

That's even assuming that all of your facts are correct.

Which they aren't. Even when facts are presented they're ignored. Some people are unreachable. They've stepped over the edge.

Here it is!

found on page 2, after being gone for awhile.

Thank you Dolly for pointing out that the thread was on the second page. YEAH!!! Carry on!!!

Later this evening I'm reading this from beginning to end. With coffee and pie.

"Their withholding has decreased, but they may well owe more in taxes." will probably be true as discussed the other day some employers may be adding the intangibles such as use of parking spaces and other things that were mentioned. When my office received a list of the things that might be considered for taxation many years ago it was an extensive list. Not certain what employers will finally do.

In my case if I relied on the places that reduced the amounts withheld I would really owe a lot more.

As for Obama's lie of a $2500 savings in insurance premiums, I heard trump twice say that the typical American family will receive a $4000 a year raise because of his tax cuts. I hope no one's counting on that $4000.

Maybe he did it in order to prod us into war. I've thought since day 1 that he'd try to do so. Wars make money for some people.

On a side note, check out #secondcivilwarletters on Twitter if you need a good laugh. I’ve been reading them all morning.

from one of early comments... "that evil creature"... which one?

Annette, the RW conspiracy theories are the saddest thing of all.

I must say that I came back on here after many years being away. Back then there were several that liked to argue and disagree with others all the time and instead of being kind in their comments, they were just plain rude. I left. I came back on here several weeks ago and should have never ever even looked on a thread that had anything political. It got heated after I expressed my desire to vote for Trump again. Mamapinky and I had a round with it and it was not good. I felt like anything I said I was being jumped on for my views and some of the comments were attacking me instead of my views. Not necessarily from Mamapinky. Same way when I posted on a thread about gasoline in clothes. I may or may not have been attacked but that is the way I felt. To those I have offended and you know who you are I am truly sorry. I still have my political views, but I will keep quiet about them on here. I feel like I must leave here again. Do any of you think I was the one who flagged a post? Well, if you do you are truly and mighty wrong. Forgiveness is asked of those who I offended, please. I am copying a pasting this on the original political post also, so it will be on both threads.

Their withholding has decreased,but they may well owe more in taxes.

We're definitely going to owe more in state taxes as a result. I think many people will be surprised next year come tax time if they haven't already made provisions for the changes.

It's funny how the middle class tax cuts are temporary but the corporate benefits are permanent. We've known for decades that trickle down economics doesn't work.

Thistledew, no one in particular has been accused of flagging. There's no way to know and that would be very unfair to specifically accuse someone. It very well could have been someone who didn't even participate, or someone who just lurks here. Who knows.

Sorry that you feel you need to leave. We do have some strong opinions here and sometimes you need a thick skin in the heated topics, especially if your opinion clashes with the majority. The problem with politics is that a simple fact can be interpreted and spun in many ways by either side, and it's human nature to want to try to correct what you believe is wrong.

I think there's also a hope that if you "correct" someone enough, they will see that you are right. ;)

Most people here are genuinely kind and aren't trying to personally attack anyone. I disagree with people but I don't want them to feel attacked or that I think their opinion is less valuable than mine.

The majority of threads here are safe and non-combative if you wanted to stick to those instead of leaving!

I have to agree with Chi about the flagging of the thread(s). I don’t believe anyone was pointing fingers towards any one in specific. We just tend to have a “ghost” flagger who will flag anything that he/she disagrees with and after a while it does get frustrating.

I read the commentary that called you (thistledew) out personally in the gasoline thread and remember thinking to myself that that wasn’t very cool. I’ve had that done to me many times and it’s hurtful. I have too strong of a personality to back off though, so I speak up and in that case, I really think you should have too. Granted not everyone is wired that way, but like Chi says, sometimes you have to have a thick skin and there is nothing wrong with speaking up when someone gets out of line.

Politics is a touchy thing without trumpism much less with it but it is much safer here than in Hot Topics. Trump’s just offended and even hurt so many people from so many different demographics. I believe that people in general are finding it harder and harder to be objective and/or open minded when it comes to his supporters, myself included. I can only speak for myself, but for the life of me, I just can’t figure out what the draw is or why someone would support such hateful policies.

Bannon, Trump et al are not 'politics as usual'. The goal is to bring down our nation of laws and to eliminate the middle class that holds it all together -- by *dividing* us.

We do have some strong opinions here and sometimes you need a thick skin in the heated topics, especially if your opinion clashes with the majority.

Chi-- here's the thing -- I haven't noticed there's a majority opinion here. Of course I haven't tried counting how many are pro/anti President Trump but at a glance it looks fairly equal to me.

Really? It seems like there are more anti-Trump to me, but I haven't really counted. I can only think of a few pro-Trump members off the top of my head. It may be that they are not as active in the threads.

I think that during the election and after frumpy first took office, there was a more even number of “Republican” posters who were in support of their party’s candidate, however, over time it seems like the platform has changed from party support to who’s in support of frumpy and who isn’t and the “Isn’ts” far outweight the “Is’s”.

Lukkirish -- for my part, I hope you are right. The sad thing is if and when we overcome this brutish discourse, the bar is now very low for public discourse.

Well said bob-cville. You hit it all on the head very concisely and intelligently. I've never been so worried about the USA as I am now.

Oh wow! KT has kicked it up a notch! Awesome! Everyone who thinks we are on a slippery slope with the interloper and his comrades should feel free to speak up!

Bleusblue2, I’ve been trying to stay as current on this stuff as much as one can stomach and I hear the “talking heads” talk about that “bar” often but I disagree and tend to think of that more as fear mongering. Call me an optimist, but the majority of people are really upset at the disgrace or mockery he’s made of the white house and our country as a whole. History has shown that the bar does find it’s way back to where it should be and laws are put into place to help ensure that it remains there. I just hope that the process is helped along with his impeachment and the incarceration of those involved (and wouldn’t it be nice if he could join them?)

Don’t forget, Nixon lowered the bar quite a bit too, but we didn’t see his successors follow in his footsteps.

lukkiirsh -- You're optimistic and I want you to be right. Nixon lowered the bar but his fan base was nowhere near as committed as TRump's. I think the drama that played out in the White House during his last days shocked even his supporters. What worries me is that TRump constantly, unabashedly condemns the Press and the government institutions to the point where his fan base can't possibly be shocked by anything that happens from here on in. Nothing has put them off; I don't have to make a list. And if he were to be impeached I'd fear a great outburst, possibly violence. It doesn't help matters that White Supremacists are now emboldened. I think Nixon's supporters were shaken by the revelations that led to his resignation.

Nixon was a saint compared to tRump. If a sane person can bear to hear two minutes of his diatribe at his carnival shows, aka as rallies, you've got more stamina than me. He's a clown, an idiot, and a malignant narcissist.

I hope I’m right too, Bleu, I really do. There’s no question that it’s a very scary time right now for everyone but his base. However in the big scheme of things don’t forget that his base is actually the minority and the majority of this country is not on board with his antics. Also, his base is shrinking. I’ve seen several stories where people who trusted in his rhetoric and voted for him are feeling the pain from his crazy policy ride; perspectives (ETA: Especially amongst women) are shifting. Polls reflect that the shift Is continuing to grow especially because of how hateful he is. People just need to stop standing by and get involved; at the very least, show up to vote during this 2018 election. There’s a website called Swing Left that has some really intresting information on it about the upcoming elections. You may want to check it out.

www.swingleft.org

I agree, Nixon was a saint compared to frumpy but for the era he was in, he did lower the bar a great deal and this country was able to bounce back. I think we will this time too. Just last night there was a report on the news about a protest taking place in England over frumpy’s visit there. The signs said, “We love American’s but we HATE TRUMP!” I couldn’t help but smile.

Trump started this whole thing with NK (remember 'Rocket Man'), then he miraculously resolves the problem by going to NK. Of course, NK does not comply. But Trump still gets to say he prevented a nuclear war - lmao - he almost started one, then prevented it? What a joke.

Perhaps trump went to NK thinking he, with his "amazingly excellent" deal making skills, would turn kim in to a puppet who's strings he could pull at will. Nope! Kim is still an evil dictator and trump is still a blabbering idiot. If anyone won that contest it is kim, who wanted to be on the world stage. The idiot complied. And that is all. As I have said before, the trip wasn't even worth the fuel it took to get there.

I recently read that Mike Pompeo was recently in NK trying to work out some deal, but that's fallen flat. There was a reason that numerous prior presidents didn't meet with NK leaders. Trump agreed to pull out American troops before a deal was made. Now what happens if he reneges on that? Is NK seeing that as an act aggression?

Unfortunately Trump sees himself above all the previous presidents, thinking he already knows everything, but ended up looking like a buffoon...again.

mare_wbpa That makes two of us who have never been so worried about the USA. I am too. I am so ashamed of this character who is leading our country.

I was thinking about all the things the President has up-ended, and what the next person will have to do to repair the damage to our reputation. I believe his intention to make America first, was a good one, and needed. But the execution of those ideas , leaves a lot to be desired.

His intent (and Bannon's) is to *divide* America and create distractions while grabbing as much profit as he can. He's never been anything but an opportunist. What made people think otherwise?

How is his intention to 'make America first' a good one, or needed? There is such thing as other people (countries/allies) doing well and prospering. By making other countries worse off than they are so that America can thrive, doesn't seem too honourable to me. America can still do 'great' but not try to ruin others in the process. I don't get it. Yes, I'm Canadian.

We don't get it either dee. Neither does the rest of the free world.

So because America is the finest and most prosperous country, everyone else should look to us to be the world's policeman, and bank? How many allies do you see sending their people to fight the wars going on? Americans are first to go in and help, whenever/wherever help is needed (with anything--aid, money, people, etc) I do not agree with all the policies being made, but by gosh, we have a right, and obligation to take care of people in this country first.

Yes, we may have been the first to step up to the plate back when we were the biggest, richest and most capable. Now we are just the ones that struggle with trying to contain the weird old uncle who insists on running our show. Sigh...

forgot to add...this belief of mine, relates to whomever is in office. Trump is stirring the pot for sure. I like the ideology, not the man.

I don't know what you mean, foggy. We have had a lot of help and support from allies for our wars that we initiate. We are not the only country that jumps to help when others need it, and we also benefit from many other countries who help when we need it.

Allies are important. We need to respect and build upon them. Isolating ourselves from everyone else will not end well. We are massively in debt to countries like China, and we can't afford to piss off the world. A trade war could be economically devastating, and a nuclear war would of course be devastating on all levels.

After Hurricane Katrina, over 150 countries immediately jumped offered aid and supplies. After Hurricane Harvey? Crickets from the world stage, and only a handful of offers of help. Did that cost additional lives? There are consequences to making enemies out of every other country and promoting "every country for themselves."

Foggy, you may want to do some more reading and get a better understanding of the agreements previous presidents have made, their history and why they are the way they set up the way that they are. I’m not saying that to be mean or snarky; I’m saying it because I used to feel the same way until I started to pay attention and understand it better. When it comes to wars and aid, there is a means to that madness that we, as a country benefit greatly from. It’s all intertwined but most importantly we had allies that we could trust, that we worked with to keep all of our countries safe and financially healthly, and now thanks to that self absorbed empty headed dumbass, we don’t.

I realize I'm not a scholar when it comes to understanding politics. I agree that I may sound like someone who drank the kool-aid. But I really don't like the fact that the US is quick to send money to other nations, when we need so much in this country. We also need leaders who know what to do, and how to do it. One who listens to his advisors. Isn't that what they are there for? Like I said, I feel for the person who has to un-do some of the things the President has done. Doesn't change the fact...we need to stop being the world's caretaker. Not isolation. Of course we need our allies, and they are intertwined, but let's even out the playing field. .

We’re not the worlds caretaker, until now, we were the World’s leader, there is a huge difference.

Here's the thing about foreign aid - it's not a charity. It's an investment in the US. People seem to think we spend an immense amount on foreign aid, but we really spend less than 1% of the Federal budget. Beyond genuinely helping people and saving lives, foreign aid directly benefits US security and the economy.

Helping to eradicate deadly diseases helps everyone, including US citizens. Helping to stabilize areas helps our own national security, as terrorists thrive in unstable areas. Taking preventative measures can help avoid war and limit the number of refugees. Economically, helping other countries can lead to beneficial trade opportunities. Aiding other countries allows them to grow, become healthier and wealthier, which in turn allows them to become better contributors to the global economy and directly helping us through increased demand for US products. There are many, many benefits. It's a great investment.

Some interesting articles:

https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/20/opinions/value-of-foreign-aid-to-the-us-chang/index.html

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Foreign-Aid-Helps-Americas-Economy

https://www.gatesnotes.com/Development/Foreign-Aid-Keeps-Americans-Safe

Good articles by Bill Gates. Thanks. I know it's not as simplistic as people think, but we have so many needs in this country. Maybe I'm stirred up by Trump anxiety. We have so many problems, it seems impossible to fix them.. Won't ever be a perfect world... sigh :(

Remember, if it can be fixed *there*, people are not forced to abandon their homes and all they hold dear to come *here*.

Just because Trump says it's so, doesn't make it so. I don't understand how people can be led around by the nose, yet here we are.