Well I guess I don't see it as the work of punk kids. They would have no interest to begin with. I don't see it as anyone with a background in graffiti. Just amateur immature political hotheads acting out.

I would think anyone would be in a hurry to get out. Particularly if it were an inside job.

Orange County is where UNC is located. Being a large, diverse university...I imagine the county definitely leans more liberal than surrounding areas.

As a Republican, I find it almost amusing that some Dems immediately said, "Oh, I bet those sneaky Republicans bombed their own building to make us look bad!" Seriously??

Nini, Karl Rove specialized in that kind of thing. That is why such a ploy is called "Rovian".

Fact is, we don't know who did it, so assigning blame is just stupid.

What would the Democrats have to gain by it? Trump is sucking up all the bad publicity while the Dems just wait around for the 8th. You don't get in the way of a train wreck.

Trump's guy is Roger Stone, and he is much dirtier than Karl Rove.

Robo, our neighbor to the north, your depth of knowledge of American politics always impresses me (most of us Americans feel worldly for knowing that Trudeau is cute). I like your handwriting analysis of the graffiti also

People are not always looking to gain something from their actions. There is a tremendous amount of raw hate towards Trump and Republicans. Some people act out with violence. That and the get out of my town threat is enough motivation for a local I think.

Blaming Republicans for a hate crime against their own party shows how much animosity there is. That is pretty low. Oh yeah, and then the democrats stand up to make a donation for repair or whatever it was making themselves look so noble, the good guys in this nasty election. Classic. So maybe that was the Dems plan. That kind of thinking can work both ways.

I don't think it's the Republicans. If anyone, it's Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, and other questionable associates of Trump's. Look into the history of these guys.

The sad thing is that if it is proven that the fire was set by Republicans to increase animosity towards the other side, many Trump supporters would not believe it or they would applaud it.

I find it odd for anyone to believe that only a republican would be capable of a hate crime like this. A democrat would never do this.

I don't see how it accomplishes anything politically either way no matter who did it.

The only way that would happen - a political effect - is through scandal - if it was leader or management driven.

So follows the nasty rumors to serve the purpose that it is corruption not local protesters gone wild.

I would find it odd if anyone believed that too. But no one believes that in this thread.

Lisaam- one of the reasons foreigners know a lot about American politics is because the US's actions have worldwide consequences. As cute and enlightened Justin Trudeau may be, his impact is limited. My concern about this election is Hillary's foreign policy. This is a woman whose foreign policy mentor is Henry Kissinger- not the very model of a peace loving liberal. Hillary has been tested in the foreign poilicy arena and I am deeply uncomfortable with what she has done (and not done.) We have a grotesquerie running against her- she is unopposed by any rational force- and we have the Middle East's problems exploding onto European and American shores. To be clear I blame George W. Bush for the escalation of trouble there- Hillary has not even once shown that she would reduce the tensions- she has been part and parcel of the escalation. Obviously Trump is not an answer- but Hillary's right wing foreign policy is not an antedote to the horrors Bush2 set into motion. Then there is the whole Wall Street/banking mess. Imagine, there was a debate between the two candidates- Clinton pointed out that her husband was responsible for a very properous period in american history, obviously this means she is qualified to run the economy well . Trump couldn't retort that her husband's repeal of Glass-Steagall led to the banking meltdown in '08? My money says Trump wouldn't know Glass-Steagall from latest Hooters Bar location. These are serious problems and we have no options and we are dealing with the most powerful country in the world. Heaven help us all.

I think it's the same people who robbed Kim Kardashian....

Tonight on the news, there was a story about fire set to a Trump sign in front of someone's house. It was only feet from his front door, and it was a townhouse where many people could have been hurt if someone hadn't spotted the flames at 2am and called the fire dept.

Sigh.

1. My gut tells me the spray painting is a red herring. If you follow most FB convos the name calling on both sides gets pretty nasty-but mostly the D's refer to the R's as 'Cons' or Trumpkins, so that would lead me to think that the graffiti 'artists' are Trump supporters who have split from the mainstream GOP.
   
   I know of many people who are rabid Trump supporters, but when I ask them about voting, I get vague responses. My state is vote by mail only-and a trick question I bring up is about voting, some people will say they're going to the polls (which we don't have), or I ask those who I know have recently moved if they notified the registrars office of their move, because ballots are not fowarded. I'd say almost every single one of those rabid supporters (generally they're also rabid HRC haters) is in fact, not registered and therefore blowing hot air.
   
   So in my mind, I could see the bombing be the act of juveniles or Trump supporters. I honestly don't see it as a Democratic or standard GOP thing.
   
   Of course, this is just my opinion-I tend to be cynical and due to the nature of my employment, deal with a lot of people who are not always the most honest folks. But I just don't see a level of maturity here that I would ascribe to either party.

"I beg to differ. Think about your 3 boys and war. Think about raising your family in a recession. Think about trying to live with a president who publicly denounces hispanics and the work they do, whether born in America or not. Think about a commander in chief who abuses women and incites his follower to act violently toward people of different religions and ethnic backgrounds, or just those who disagree with him. I think you would find your life and your family's experience of America very different."

Where do we start. How about point by point.

If we criticize the candidates seriously (and lets get over Jill Stein or the other guy from Utah having a chance), I've seen evidence that Clinton is more hawkish than Trump. Yes, I know she was not very hawkish for Ambassador Stevens as he begged for support. If anything, Trump wants to look inward (which I don't agree fully with), nevertheless I think he is more of an isolationist than Clinton.

Recession? Yes, I do indeed worry about that, mainly for kids coming of age now. My kids are far too young to have to worry about that right now. And again, frankly I hedge myself against these things pretty well. I will be fine. My family will be fine either way. This is my point. So many minorities are hoping that this is the time when a candidate rescues them from poverty. It's pretty tough to rescue someone when they have often done things to contribute their bad outcomes. Look at inner cities. Do you really think government can offset the damage that single parent households do to their children (on average)? My wife worked for a college and she saw this with her very own eyes. You can't throw enough money on this problem. Also, what above merely graduating from high school? Oh you might say, it's there aren't enough resources. How would you counter that in my case where I live, teachers are in the top 5 of highest paid teachers in the country? What are the outcomes of our inner cities? If you've ever been to Los Angeles, take a drive down Central Ave or Alameda or Vermont. It's tragic. Guess what? My own father comes from that and government was not the solution. My grandpa did the right thing. He cared for his children. Raised them all except the daughter to be business owners. This all happened in the first generation. All this in a time of rampant racism. We have no excuse when people like my father and uncles made it in a tough time. But again, government is not your savior. If it was in your life, by all means share your story. I really enjoy talking to people. And I won't deny you your story if in fact you were rescued by government. I just can say I haven't been nor anyone in my family.

Being denounced by anyone is irrelevant to me. Do you or others really concern yourselves with having words thrown at you? Jeesh, we have indeed become a bunch of snowflakes. I know we live in a time of safe spaces and trigger warnings. It's funny really. I can't believe this is my America. Some of the worst racism lies right in our own communities. And guess what? I've done a lot of traveling in the South and never have I heard the crap that comes out of Hispanics behind closed doors away from cameras and the proper folks. Think they love their fellow black brothers and sisters? I won't generalize the entire group, but there is a whole lot of healing needing right in the Hispanic community before we start criticizing Donald Trump.

Unless the government actively goes out to remove my property, I will be fine. Doesn't matter what any politician says. Above all, that's what I want for my fellow citizen. It is emancipation from the modern slave owner. My parents didn't come here from a third-world country to worship a politician. Immigration is too recent in my heritage to seek a human savior. I don't need it. My family came here to improve upon the prior generation. And thankfully that way of thinking has freed us from all mortal saviors.

I genuinely respect those more left than I am who want to help. I don't question the desire of honest liberals who want to make lives better for others. It is the politicians who manipulate uneducated minorities so that they can be ensured decades of employment. Do you speak Spanish? If you do, take a look at Univision and Telemundo. Or how about you read some of the Spanish newspapers in your community. Come back and let me know if you think Hispanics are getting a balanced discussion on the issues. I will tell you (being a fluent Spanish speaker) that is tilted to Clinton and the left. If Hispanics aren't careful, they'll end up like another marginalized liberal voting block that hasn't fared to well since their doubling down on the Democrats. This lack of balance does no good to educate Hispanics. If it wasn't for the leaks this year, most liberals would still be thinking they get a balanced presentation of the issues. Guess what, you don't. You can vote for Clinton (or anti-Trump) but hopefully you can accept that the media does indeed have a dog in this fight.

I know 86% of likely voters have made their mind up. Unfortunately, with how Americans get their news, their decision is likely on flawed and slanted information. That is truly the sad thing about all of this. We live in an era of low-information voters (and before you jump at me that the right is full of them, relax, I agree). It is the death of our democracy when people spend more time on football, Kardashians, and fighting for marijuana rights than on this important decision. I hope that this trend reverses in my lifetime. That is ultimately what I hope happens so that my boys' America is one of an ongoing concern and not one with a diminished role in the world, second to China.

You bring up religion. Look, I do not hold any politician to be a friend of religion. Hillary is no exception? I don't take offense since I am not Catholic, but was that talk behind closed doors about Catholics indicative of tolerance? What about the comments about Evangelicals? What about needy Hispanics? Is that the language of a campaign based on respect of all others? My feelings aren't hurt about any of it but for those who raise Clinton to be this angelic figure of tolerance and love and harmony, I urge you to open your eyes.

Now for the issue of abuse of women. I agree with you it is horrible. It is wrong. Women should be respected, just like men. But again, is Hillary indicative of a campaign respectful of women? She takes money from artists with nasty lyrics about hoes, sluts, and who knows what else. What about laughing at how her rapist client got off on lesser charges after raping a 12 year old girl. That's respect of women? Personally, the hyper-sexual culture of this country is destroying minorities even more. Where are all the abortions happening? Try minority communities in disproportionate numbers. The left encourages problems with free sex for all and then provides you wonderful solutions like destroying life. How blacks support this party is beyond me. Just look at Hillary enjoying the awards from Planned Parenthood. The left brings us slavery with a modern flavor. There is no emancipation in their religion. It's indefinite bondage to the system.

I for one am free of that and so is my family, thank God and to those that came before me.

This video came out today:

New O'Keefe Video: Clinton Campaign, DNC Coordinated With Organizations To Incite Violence At Trump Events

Apparently, a group of undercover activists taped their conversations with Democratic activists Scott Foval and Robert Creamer. Warning - some language.

"In the video, Democratic activists Robert Creamer and Scott Foval reveal
their strategy to create a sense of "anarchy" in and around Donald
Trump events over the course of the campaign. Foval tells an undercover
operative: "One of the things we do is we stage very authentic
grassroots protests right in their faces at their own events. Like, we
infiltrate."

Tonight, I read reports that in a few hours after the video publication the Dems fired Scott Foval.

I'm not going to dispute whether the video is authentic or not, and whether Scott Foval had that much influence. You make your own judgments. Still, I find all those happenings disturbing.

Right now I'm trying hard to keep my bearings straight and to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Last night, a couple of women canvassing for the Trump campaign knocked on our door & talked w/ hubby. He told them we both already voted & that we were not for their guy. They thanked him for being so polite & said everyone else so far had been really rude to them, even Republicans. Our district is pretty heavily Republican. They also told him the main reason they were for Trump had mostly to do w/ how much they hated Hillary Clinton.

FWIW

It's tough because James O'Keefe was very deceptive with his videos before and the mainstream media definitely got burned with his Acorn video so he has lost a ton of credibility. Not to say that it isn't possible that these operatives arent veering between over enthusiastic and illegal activities but O'Keefe himself is pretty much poison at this point.

"James O’Keefe himself. The conservative filmmaker has gained a reputation for videos that appear politically damning on their face but turn out to be deceptively edited — or even outright falsified. O’Keefe’s signature project has been his 2009 video claiming to show employees at the community activist group ACORN advising a pimp in how to apply for benefits and grant funding while concealing his sex trafficking.

The videos led to a congressional backlash against ACORN and moves to de-fund the organization, but months later the full and unedited video revealed that the expose was a case of deception. O’Keefe failed to show ACORN workers acting appropriately when faced with the fake pimp, and ultimately he paid a $100,000 settlement to ACORN employee Juan Carlos Vera, who was fired as a result.

As Think Progress noted, it was not the only time James O’Keefe used deception in a political hit piece.

“O’Keefe’s other videos have been exposed as either complete lies or deceptively edited. ThinkProgress reported last year that O’Keefe’s attempt to expose voter fraud by non-citizens actually featured US citizens. The conservative activist has also been arrested for trying to bug a Senator’s phone. In his ACORN pimp sting, O’Keefe deceptively edited in the famous pimp costume later, though he actually wore a suit and tie at the ACORN office.”

The checkered reputation of James O’Keefe is likely the reason for the media blackout on his alleged October Surprise, as major news organizations burned in their straightforward coverage of the ACORN videos are wary of being taken again in his latest video.
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/3605790/october-surprise-why-is-the-media-ignoring-the-james-okeefe-video-claiming-to-show-hillary-clinton-supporters-inciting-violence-at-donald-trump-rallies/#EXif3qz0kaic8Klg.99";

This has not been widely reported, but there was some minor vandalism at the Dem office near where the firebombing occurred the same night.

There are also these two armed Trump supporters who have set up a patrol outside a Dem office in VA.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a49621/virginia-trump-fan-gun-office/

'To be clear I blame George W. Bush for the escalation of trouble there [in the Middle East] - Hillary has not even once shown that she would reduce the tensions- she has been part and parcel of the escalation.'

How about blaming the Middle East leaders, not our leaders who are doing the best they can with the complex issues they have to deal with.

Part 2, if you have the solution, please please forward your plan to the President and stage an organized effort to deliver the solution to the public. Time is running out.

Ocpilot, I think your comment was flagged for review. I didn't see it and no one addressed it, which seems unusual for this opinionated bunch.

So many minorities are hoping that this is the time when a candidate rescues them from poverty. It's pretty tough to rescue someone when they have often done things to contribute their bad outcomes. Look at inner cities.

Can't this be said of Trump supporters too? Look at any depressed area of the country where jobs have disappeared. Have they prepared themselves for changes in technology that eliminated factory jobs? Did they get a college education or training to prepare themselves for today's jobs? Did they even graduate high school? Have they been willing to move away from depressed areas? Have they turned to drugs and alcohol? Had children they can't afford? Trump is their knight in shining armor who's going to bully the world into making them love us again.

It's pretty tough to rescue someone when they have often done things to contribute their bad outcomes.
Reminds me of a conversation I had after the 1992 election with the daughters of a patient. This patient's lungs were so damaged from smoking that she was on a ventilator, and we were talking about the likelihood that she could never be weaned from it. In the course of the conversation I brought up that these 2 daughters also need to quit smoking so that they didn't end up the same way.

The response was "We don't have to worry about that now. Mr. Clinton is going to take care of us."

Mayflowers, I started to address it but I'm tired from being so opinionated yesterday, lol. There was just too much....... :-)

This morning on the local news someone was interviewed whose Trump sign was burned down - also chemically burned the word Trump in the yard. I guess this explains why there are so few presidential campaign lawn signs. Next thing you know someone will be lighting fire to a house like they used to do if resident was supportive of a minority race.

Snookums2, the history and politics of the ME are certainly complicated. And there is no doubt that the leaders in those countries bear responsibility for their actions. A thorough discussion of the merits and demerits of US foerign policy in that part of the world is well beyond the scope of this thread- and my capacities!

There are a few simple and nonpartisan truths though. The second war in Iraq was a terrible mistake that created tremembous instability and fueled the rise of terrorism. Colin Powell said it on the eve of the war- "You break it, you buy it." We certainly broke Iraq and now we are paying. Many regular Americans were opposed to the war. Many Democratic and Republican foreign policy experts were opposed to the war- and somehow to war the US went. Who on Earth benefited from that war? We know for sure ISIS and it's ilk did.

Second, who benefited from regime change in Lybia? We were able to tolerate Gaddafi for decades- he blew an airplane out of the sky- and we still tolerated his existence and governance of that country. What happened all of a sudden a few years ago that made him subject to regime change? That action on the US and Europe's part did the West no favors. What did we get out of it? Migrants and more ISIS. And goodness, when I say migrants, I am not being flip. The people displaced in the Middle East are suffering the most terrible fate. They watch their children and parents die. They starve and suffer from disease. They risk their lives to find safety and shelter.

I could go on with fairly uncontroverstial example, i.e. steering way clear of the Israeli/Palestinian problem.

And let us remember when we mete out responsibility for the problems in the Middle East- there are no democratic countries in that part of the world. There are brutal dictators who enrich themselves at the expense of their people. These dictators make decisions that suit their power- not their people's well being. Sadly, the only alternative to these brutes is Islamists, so that puts us in quite a pickle.

So while we could blame Middle Eastern leaders for their decisions, we cannot blame Middle Easterners- they have not had a say in the conditions that have led up to this explosive situation. Scholars point out that the groundwork for this was laid out at the end of the First World War.

PS Ocpilot for President!

'There are a few simple and nonpartisan truths though.

...
Who on Earth benefited from ... or .... ? '

Abby, the issue I take with all these judgments, conclusions and predictions rewriting history as it should have been is that decisions were made with much work, thought and intention of being the best choice. If conclusively wrong decisions were made in the end, well then, hindsight is 20/20.

I also question the idea that there were 'right' decisions that should have been made instead. One can never know what the outcomes and repercussions of another path would have been.

Further, trying to untangle cause and effect is highly speculative on anyone's part.

That is not to say it isn't important to review and critique in order to learn for the future. But this whole blame game is another story.

I believe decisions are made because it is felt they are the best choice overall. They aren't made in a vacuum. No one will ever reach concensus. They are extremely complex and difficult problems, there is not a right or simple answer that will execute without problems or unforeseen consequences or the inclusion of things that later are decided were poorer choices. To think otherwise is very naive. A choice must be made. Then it unfolds. New problems must be addressed.

People do the best they can or the best that can be done under the circumstances. Walk in their shoes to see how well 'you' can do.

To complement Abby Krug and Snookums2's comments re: ME situation

PBS has a very good summary on how Christians fared under Saddam, Mubarak and Assad:

PBS: Why Did Assad, Saddam and Mubarak Protect Christians?

"How did the Christians benefit from Saddam Hussein?
“There was a kind of a social contract in Iraq,” between minorities and
Hussein, says Adeed Dawisha, a professor at the University of Miami in
Ohio. “Under Saddam, it was understood that if you don’t interfere in
politics, then you are provided with a good life.”

On Syria's Christians:

"As the rest of the world turns on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad,
who is an Alawite, Syria’s Christian population is steadfastly pulling
for the dictator – and has for years. .... Christians get “very good business contracts, positions in government
and the Syrian military,” says Andrew Tabler of The Washington
Institute. “They get preferential treatment and protection of their
places of worship.”

Saddam's government was secular. It was totalitarian, but it also kept a tight lid on assorted sectarians and extremists. As a result, the majority in Iraq benefited from a stable regime. It was a social contract that worked for the society as a whole.

No dictatorship can survive without the support of the masses. Stalin's regime was able to last that long thanks to the millions of people willing to carry out its policies or, at least, comply with them on the ground. I'm glad I was born much later, but I can also understand why my great-grandparents and grandparents' generations went along with the regime.

Most countries develop governmental systems that fit their cultures and ethnic compositions best. Democratic structures that work in the West can be outright inefficient and even destructive in other societies. Sadly, many Americans, including my DH, can't grasp why some nations might prefer to live under a non-democratic rule, and be better off in the end.

The fact that Trump became a presidential candidate is definitely an indication of certain trends in American society. Whether we like it or not, it's what many of our fellow countrymen are rooting for.

Thank you, Lana, for your points about dictatorships being suited to their populations at some level. You are right, and I regret if my comments came off as simplitic on that score. I wanted only to make the point that the people most affected by the troubles in the Middle East are not consulted by their leaders about how to procede. I fully appreciate your points.

Abby,

I appreciate your opinion, too. This is what this thread is for - to hear and discuss different perspectives. I completely agree with you that the interventions in Iraq and Libya resulted in some disastrous consequences for the West, as well.

Thank you for sharing your views!

Just because someone is a trouble maker and throws a moltov cocktail does not make them a "Democrat" or "Republican." I've heard the shooter from the movie theater in CO (won't repeat his name) called a "liberal" on some of the blah blah shows. Very weak argument on either end, IMHO. Prejudiced and just not necessary. A sick person did this, plain and simple. Some people are drawn to controversy and like the violence. Yes, what is wrong with people that they are so enamored of all this violence. I am appalled.

The saga goes on. Today's report:

Fox59: Bricks thrown through windows at GOP office in Indiana.

Note to self:

To keep your property safe, better not post any election signs out front. Doesn't matter whether it's for Clinton or Trump. Each side has its share of wackos, paid or not.

Sigh.

In Wisconsin, a woman peanut buttered cars that she thought belonged to Trump supporters. That's really nutty.

While the brick report is from today, the actual incident was on Oct 8. I don't know why they waited so long to report it, or why it took the news so long to pay attention (not sure which is the case).

http://cbs4indy.com/2016/10/18/vandals-strike-at-delaware-county-republican-party-office-break-windows/

It's reprehensible, no matter who did it.

I think it does make more sense that Trump protesters would be the more logical or likely people to bomb a Republican facility. That's the more traditional way hate crimes like that play out. Its message was spelled out. Although it could be anyone of course. I don't understand the logic behind an inside job.

The new bombshell video on CNN involving the DNC camp does show that the Democratic side is not beneath the type of accusations being made regarding the GOP bombing (inside job) and Trump's conspiracy claims. There's something else breaking that DT says is 'worse than Watergate' but I have forgotten what it is already.

Same explanations being served to the public. 'Bar room talk'. 'Hypothetical' talk.

I don't think Hillary would be involved but have to wonder what type of people are being hired and why.

I'm totally confused, snookums. Your post was there when I posted but now it's after my last post. Did you delete and then repost? Just trying to figure out how it moved down.

ETA Sorry, I guess I saw it in the other thread already.

I did post it twice because it relates to part of this discussion too.

Snookums2,

Hillary doesn't have to be personally involved in everything. My understanding is that she represents her party, perhaps more exactly a coalition of groups/persons within and outside her party. She is not 100% free to make all the decisions, although she has a certain authority and can influence things in some ways.

My impression is that Trump has much more independence and freedom in his campaign than Clinton. Hillary is more of an authorized representative, while DT is more of a ship captain/owner. I might be wrong, though.

Just be careful abut videos involving James O'Keefe like the Scott Focal one above. he's the one who faked the Acorn videos and had to pay a poor employee damages in court.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe

I have been involved in issues politics for many, many years and been to two major protests, one against nuclear power and one against fracking. It is well known by anyone seriously involved in planning and executing these kinds of things, that there will be thugs (on both sides of the issue) that show up to cause trouble. Some are folks just drawn to the drama who otherwise are not involved in politics at all, and others are paid operatives by the opposition. In the case of a demonstration, there are usually folks trained to observe and de-escalate skirmishes, although they can't be everywhere. You'll get things like vandalism to cars parked, people putting up blockades, purposeful traffic impediment, heckling, etc. Tolerating and enabling threatening language is going to embolden these folks, on both sides. That's why I find it so appalling. These folks have no particular interest in the issues, they are interested in the arguing, messing with people, etc. Like I said, they are sick. But there's a lot of those kinds of people out there. They show up for sports events sometimes too, when brawls among opposing team "fans" break out.

'thugs or paid operatives' - and highly emotional protesters and supporters. I've never been personally involved in protests but there have been turbulent times in the past when it was high emotions that resulted in violence, not opportunistic crazies or corruption. Sometimes protesters or supporters lost it, sometimes law enforcement brutality surfaced. The other possible culprits would be the least probable on my list based on the volatile emotionally charged nature of both this election and our times.

ETA: If it weren't for the 'Nazi Republicans' signature, a Republican who is disgusted by Trump representing their party wouldn't surprise me.

IOW, 'itching for a fight'? I've crossed paths w/ people like that as well.

Can't this be said of Trump supporters too? Look at any depressed area of the country where jobs have disappeared. Have they prepared themselves for changes in technology that eliminated factory jobs? Did they get a college education or training to prepare themselves for today's jobs? Did they even graduate high school? Have they been willing to move away from depressed areas? Have they turned to drugs and alcohol? Had children they can't afford? Trump is their knight in shining armor who's going to bully the world into making them love us again.

I was trying to speak about the Hispanic community and to some degree the African-American community due to personal experience, what I've learned in discussions with my wife who is from the South, and endless readings on economic and political issues. So yes there are some Trump supporters that may see a knight in shining armor. I would say the same thing to them. Without going back to re-read what I wrote earlier, I think freedom and independence in all facets is what is great about this country. I don't want to be an economic slave to some politician, whether that's Clinton or Trump. I don't need affirmative action or a government handout, no thank you. I'll compete on my own and give anyone a run for their money on my own. If I don't get a job, I don't complain it must've been racism. I go get another skill or credential. I have an internal locus of control and it's great! It's empowering!

At the risk of repeating myself, this country is a magnificent place. I am one of the most blessed human beings on this Earth and money plays only a small part of that statement. I am one generation removed from abject poverty where corruption (sorry to say, so similar to what we see happening on the left today) nearly guarantees a permanent underclass. Which by the way, that underclass competes for our manufacturing jobs for 20 cents on the dollar. In similar ways, the corruption , enslavement, and political servitude that my parents fled is now increasing in this country. That saddens me as a very proud American.

One of the greatest inspirations in my life are my dad and mom. My father came to Los Angeles as a 5 year old not speaking a word of English. There wasn't nearly the support there is for non-native speakers. Nevertheless my father made it through high school, through lots of racial unrest (particularly with Latino and Black tensions), through racism and never did they take government assistance. My father stayed away from drugs and the gangs which he says were all over. It's a part of my family history that I don't forget. I drive by the house where my father was raised. And I drive into the cul-de-sac where I lived until I was 4 years old. And honestly it's emotional for me. So much sacrifice has been made by my parents to help me get where I am at today. My mother's father was murdered when she was 2. Even in the third-world country where she lived, she was able to fight for an education, didn't mess around with men (avoiding teenage pregnancy that is almost guaranteed in her homeland), and focused on studying accounting. She shares stories of how poor they were that they often had only had one egg to split with the 5 siblings for breakfast. She shares that she had to use candlelight to do homework because electricity would be cut off after 7 or 8 pm. It's these stories that make me realize, anything is possible with hard work in this country. No, the white man is not trying to keep me or my sons down. No my white CEO is not trying to keep my wages down because I'm Hispanic. There is opportunity all over the place!

And this great country made that possible. But I don't look for government to grant me my success. The freedom to work hard is there for everyone. That is the principle I am raising my kids with. Trying to bring this back to gardening, I do share this with my kids. I have a lot of plants on a mere 8000 square foot lot. Blueberries, peaches, nectarines, citrus, apple trees, and a struggling persimmon tree and a Kishu Mini (overwatering maybe the problem). And its sometimes a pain to keep it under control but I do. And my kids notice the hard work that it takes to reap rewards from my investment. And I love it. We believe in a reap and sow world. It has paid dividends in my life and my wife's (who ironically comes from a similar background but definitely had more challenges than I did).

My son has a friend who lives across the street. The mom is single. In fact she has 3 kids each with different fathers. God bless her she has done as good of a job as she can. Her kid is a good kid. But you know what that kid says to my kids? Vote for Clinton because my mom says I'll get free college. The contrast is my kids hear that college is a good option and that we are saving for it so that when the time comes, the money is there. It's two polar viewpoints and its not unlike what we see in the adult world. And by the way, I tell my kids, don't ever look at a politician as the solution to your problem. I encourage them to find the solution within themselves. I truly believe it's that paradigm that can help the poor climb out of poverty and the vicious cycles that perpetuate it.

I'll share one more thing. I work in a typical corporate environment. I talk to everyone from upper management to security guards and the janitors. I really enjoy talking to this one security guard who is making minimum wage because he allows me to hear a very different perspective. He is an immigrant from a country where socialistic leanings have destroyed opportunity. It's a country where man of their taxi cab drivers are college-educated but cannot find work in their fields. Without me sharing my viewpoint on politics, he opened up about the election and said he gets angry at Hispanics because we should know better. We have fled countries like Venezuela and Cuba. My parents fled a country with one of the highest murder rates in the world (even compared to war zones! How is that even possible!). The utopian projects have failed so he says why do we come here and try to bring the principles of our failed homelands here! It was brilliant. That day I shared with my friends and coworkers, that he so eloquently describe my frustration with my own. It really frustrates me and frankly I'm not sure there is anyway to get most of them to get this major point. We must stop looking to government to fix our problems. It takes sacrifice and determination and the ability to fight temptations (like sex at 14 or 16 or blowing every penny you earn on cable tv, $100 phone plans, $600 phones, and new cars you can't afford).

Well, the end of this race is near which means more time to garden! God Bless America.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoint copilot! I also have a similar immigrant background and completely agree with you. Well said!

OC, There is a cliche that speaks to "a hand up, not a hand out". Not everyone is looking for a hand out. That is stereotyping and a standard example of GOP propaganda. And it does resonate with people who have gotten through hardship and adversity proudly, without social programs.

However, there are basic foundations of our society that benefit everyone, that are certainly not a handout or "entitlement". I love the story of your family and their journey. But even with their hard work and integrity, they most surely benefitted from these basic tenets (that's not the exact word I'm looking for, oc, others here are much better at this than I).

Republicans want us to think Democrats throw handfuls of money at lazy people with iPhones and Louis Vuitton bags that are on welfare. Obviously, you are too intelligent to be that easily manipulated. The greatness of this country that you speak of so sincerely would be very different without the basic foundations of social justice. And it takes nothing away from those who think they have never benefitted from the government.

I wish I was as good with words and links as others here. But hopefully you understand my point.

There's a great, seriously mind-expanding series on poverty from On The Media, covering almost all the same points mentioned above - esp. the idea that giving aid to poor people just makes them weaker & that everyone in our nation has the same chance to improve their lot in life. Here's a link to the latest episode. You can listen or read the transcript:

https://www.wnyc.org/story/rags-riches/

Well, in my lower middle class, rural neighborhood, most of my white neighbors are getting some kind of government assistance. Most of the people I know are benefiting from government programs in some way or other, and yet because they think they are the deserving ones, their handouts are not handouts, and yet the undeserving "others" money is. Middle class entitlements make up the largest share of our government budget, along with the military that has plenty of folks living high on the hog because as my friend says, "We are in the war business and the war business is booming." I don't think you should judge people unless you are prepared to be judged. This whole "some people are deserving and some aren't" thing really bothers me. I don't think my judgement is so infallible that I can parse out who "deserves" what they got and who doesn't. Also odd that most Republicans have so much sympathy for fetuses, who demand nothing from them, and then once they are born, seem to despise them. I saw this sign on a Trump supporters truck today, "Don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em." I don't see how someone with an attitude like that can say that they believe "All lives matter" and that they are "pro life." There is an underlying theme that is unspoken in Trump's campaign, and that is of the superiority of some folks over others, with DT being the most superior. He is a believer in his genetic superiority over other Americans. Scary stuff.

how dangerous is it? I did think about that aspect this week, we were in Washington on the night of the debate, staying at the Trump hotel ( not our choice), and the group we were with ( a bank board) had us bussed from our dinner to the hotel, even though it was only 2 blocks on foot from both venues. The lobby of the hotel was full as they had tvs on with loud sound, the atmosphere was casual and peaceful. Lots of security guards milling about .

Especially since early voting started here, I am seeing more and more yard signs for Hillary (and other Dems) both near work and home.