Sandy, this is a good reminder, and I appreciate it. It's so easy to forget about what can harm our pooches.

What did you mean when you said that you look for "loose" thorns near the walking paths? What is a "loose" thorn?

Thanks,
Randy

Yes, we always travel with dogs, and always will.

Time was, we travelled with 2 big Afghan Hounds, and 3 Dalmatians.
Now we're down to two Dals. But they are experienced Rose Rustlers.
Wherever we are, there will be multiple dogs.

Jeri

jb, I am beginning to realize the importance of avoiding chemicals in my life. (I still need my ant poison, but last night ordered some more bait.) We just don't know what all of these products are doing to us and our environment.

zyperiris, congratulations on your new little kitties.

Randy, I am very careful when I cut a branch to be sure that it makes it into the trash. Even if I just snap a spent bloom, I watch to be sure that a thorn or part of a branch does not fall. When I walk through the garden I look carefully for any little twigs or branches that could have blown off a rose, and fallen in a path.

I still don't want to walk through my yard without shoes, but I do try to be careful.

Sammy

Folks, it's not a safe world; it never has been. It is up to you to read the labels, research the ingredients, to know what products and plants you have in your environment, to know where your children and your pets are. It is your responsibility to know what malathion does. Personally, I think Big Brother all ready too much say in my life.

It is also up to you to get a diagnosis before you jump to conclusions about hydrangeas or malathion harming your animals. Dogs get cancer without any help from pesticides and dogs get sick from all sorts of things, some of which can be much more dangerous than hydrangeas. Did you find out how many hydrangea leaves/lab of dog it takes to make a dog sick? At what time of year are the toxins most potent?

jbfoodie, if you really mean we shouldn't be able to buy anything that harms the environment, I hope you are willing to give up your car, all metals and plastics, in fact, most of the conveniences of modern life. Where do you want to draw the line? From the destruction of resources to emitting chemicals into the environment to the destruction of land for roads, plus accidents and the cost of maintaining and insuring that could go to other things, the car is one of the most deadly and abused items in our life. And, d you ever wonder about the environmental cost of all the fresh foods in your grocery store?

Well, catsrose, I am glad that Big Brother found out that people were getting very sick from tomatoes. I for one don't care how many it takes to get sick --- sick is sick.

I am also pleased that we have the ASPCA to list the dangerous plants, and give us information that I did not know was out there.

Why don't you reread jpfoodies' response and see that she was talking about yard chemicals. After all we do have a responsibility to read things carefully, don't we? Ha ha, I hope you have a sense of humor. I don't mean any disrespect, but I am a little put off by your telling me I ought to be careful when I wrote about my dog getting sick. I am careful, but my hydrangeas or the orchids slipped by me. Possibly I am too sensitive, and you did not intend to be insulting.

Sammy

Sammy, I am happy for you that your dog survived and glad he has recovered. All parts of hydrangea are toxic and there are many other poisonous plants including clematis and lillies (which are specifically lethal to cats.) I have consulted so many sources about this subject because all 3 of my cats were treated for poisoning on several occasions. 2 of the 3 like/liked to eat plants and since the traumas I planted so my my garden would be cat friendly. (One of the reasons I grow roses which are relatively safe, thorns and all.) But even if animals don't eat plants or directly ingest chemicals, if they walk in an area which contains something toxic, they can get sick. (by licking their paws for one.) After my community applied something to our lawns without first informing us, my kitties got simultaneously sick and I had a huge vet bill. We still do no receive advance notice about when chemicals are going to be applied so my cats are strictly indoors now.

I am frustrated by the number of plants that are poisonous (to cats particularly) and also by the contradictory nature of the multitude of lists out there. One list will say for example, that pittosporum is non-toxic. So I planted it only to find it later on another list which rated it as highly toxic...

But Catsrose, Hydrangeas are consistently on every list (of poisonous plants) out there. That's animal organization and educational institutions alike. Also, (not saying this confrontatively) I don't understand your logic - just because we may not choose or be able to live a perfect environmentally-conscious existence is no excuse to not be as responsible as possible (and to make sacrifices when necessary.)

Huttnem, I do think it is difficult to try to protect cats. They are so small to begin with. We walk our dogs daily, and often I can smell lproducts that people put on their lawns. I always hope that when as return from our walks, the dogs get a chance to walk through grass, and clean their paws.

Our garden is not fenced, so when we work in the garden, we chain the dogs to our garden cart, and take them with us. we put the cart where there is shade, and the dogs protect us. I have about 12 - 15 huge hydrangeas wherever there is shade. I have decided that I need to use my huge umbrellas, and create shade in other areas for the dogs.

When I look at the list, Johnson grass is also listed, and I think that is a common weed here. I need to find a way to positively identify it, and use Round Up on it. Of course Round Up is not supposed to hurt humans or animals once it is dry, but I am not sure that is true now.

Sammy

Hydrangeas might contain enough toxins to be harmful some animals if enough quantities are eaten - but it is too bad that an organization like the ASPCA doesn't mention harmful dosages or at least reference their information sources so you can find out for yourself. I've read, too, that hydrangeas are only toxic if large quantities are eaten, and some hydrangeas are actually made into a sweet tea in Japan (for humans, obviously). The low number of hydrangea poisonings coupled with their wide cultivation probably points to a fairly minimal risk for most people and their animals, but if your pet happens to have a real taste for them, it's probably best to keep them separated (I'm fairly sure the hydrangea would agree).

Since you didn't say it explicitly, did your dog get a diagnosis for what made him sick from the vet? I'm glad to hear that he recovered.

I'd be interested to hear if there was a diagnosis, too. It'd be awful to be blaming the hydrangeas and later on find it was something else entirely you didn't even know could be a problem! Anyway, I'm very glad you dogs recovered, it is really upsetting with pets, because they seem so helpless when they get sick.

I'd never even thought of Johnson grass being toxic! It's a tall-growing really ugly grass I remember well in Texas (assuming I'm right that that is the right plant as I was told it was). Of course, to me, nearly all grasses are ugly, which shocks most of my friends. But they didn't grow up in Texas pulling bermuda grass out of flowers beds for their grandmother and all her gardening friends. They always wanted me to pull the weeds because I was the only one they knew who wouldn't also pull up the non-weeds! Now that I think on it, I wouldn't mind having a younger version of myself out pulling weeds...

--Ron

I'm going to mention it again here, and probably ad nauseum around the forums...but because I think it is important.

Many "inert ingredients" found in pesticides are at least as toxic as the "active ingredients," and sometimes more so. The problem is that there are only a handful of inert ingredients that are required to be labelled. Inert doesn't mean "neutral" in any sense of the word, only that the ingredient doesn't take an active roll in the destruction of the host plant.

So, while some of the main ingredients in pesticides like imadicloprid (sp?) or glyphosate may be ruled "safe" by the USDA or EPA, the so-called inert ingredients are largely unregulated. That should be alarming to EVERYONE.

Stefan, when my dog became sick, and we were wondering what happened, my husband mentioned that the dog had been bringing in leaves from the hydrangeas. We are not sure if it was the leaves from the hydrangeas or the buds and blooms from the dendrobium orchids. We did see him eating the orchids, and took them from him. I think at night he could have helped himself to more orchids. He also could have eaten some weeds that would make him sick.

We did not take him to the Vet because the emergency hospital reassured us, and recommended that we wait, and by morning he had eaten and was feeling much better. We sent information from the ASPCA to the Vet, and they said since he had begun to eat, we need not bring him in.

Blaze will be two in Sept., and we do provide good care for him. But since he seemed ok, they did not need to see him.

Johnson grass is what I am thinking of, and I am not sure if he has eaten it. We have a shed in the dogs' yard, and in back of the shed were some tall grasses. He would have eaten those if he wanted to. They are gone now, of course.

I hate Johnson grass and bermuda too. I keep planning on ways to get rid of all grasses. Someone here mentioned that if you get rid of all grasses, it does not spread so much.

Greenhaven, I don't even know what the inert ingredients may be in most products. Fortunately I haven't used inert ingredients or fertilizer on any of the flowers he could have come in contact with, but no telling what was put on the orchids before they were sent.

SAmmy

Many "inert ingredients" found in pesticides are at least as toxic as the "active ingredients,"

*** I was astonished to read that the active ingredient in Roundup was not carcinogenic.
But the INERT ingredient IS!
Go figure.

Sammy -- The active AND inert ingredients are listed on the containers.
You can "google" each of those substances, to learn whether or not they may present a problem.
The information IS out there. We just need to make a habit of obtaining it.
Because the chemical companies are NOT going to make it easy for us.
Caveat emptor.

Jeri

This entire subject is very discouraging to me since a couple of months ago, when I saw a doctor, I found out I may have developed toxicity for Vitamin D3. He reminded me that the FDA does not regulate these vitamins, and while I thought I was taking less than 2000 iu, I could have and obviously did take much more.

We can be very careful, but I would really like to count on Big Brother a little more. I have a busy life, and cannot research everything -- absolutely everything.

The idea that inert ingredients need to be checked is mind boggling -- but true. I just sent an email to Round Up. I wonder what they will say.

Does anyone know of a drink that has some flavor, but has no sugar or sugar substitute? I know of tea and tea and tea. Everything I look at in the store says sugar or sugar substitute in some way. I am beginning to hate labels. Sorry about the rant.

Jeri and everyone, thank you so much for your posts.

Sammy (It is very hot in Tulsa today -- and humid.)

Jeri, just so you don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to butt heads with you, or even argue with you, since we are very much on the same page regarding chemical usage. I don't mean to come across that way at all.

I want to point out that the EPA does not require listing of inert or inactive ingredients. For instance, I looked up chemical info for Ortho Weed-B-Gone Max, and even on the chemical information page there is NO info at all for the inert ingredients, the inert ingredients names are not even listed, and the page comes right out and says that some inert ingredients are known to be harmful.

From the pesticideinfo.org website: 'By U.S. law, only active ingredients (AIs) are reported. In addition to active ingredients, pesticide products may contain one or more 'inert' ingredients. Many 'inert' ingredients in current use have known adverse human and environmental effects.'

I think it would be fabulous if we knew what every ingredient in these chemicals we use were. But it is not likely. I truly believe we are much safer trying to change our perception of our space around us than to delve into unknown and very possible dangerous territory.

That said, I KNOW that is my position, and others don't all have the same positon. But I think Jeri hits the nail right on the head that everyone should make truly well-informed decisions...no matter what their view.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pesticide info for Ortho Weed-B Gone Max

We can be very careful, but I would really like to count on Big Brother a little more. I have a busy life, and cannot research everything -- absolutely everything.

*** But, then, you have feared "Government Regulation."
I suppose it's a small part of "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."

Jeri

Hey Greenhaven -- No argument from me.
I guess if the manufacturer failed to list the entire ingredients, I'd wanna know why.
So, I guess if all else failed I'd ask.

But you and I ARE coming from the same place -- and DH and I now get along without sprays.

Jeri

Sammy, so sorry about your golden retriever. Don't blame yourself. My golden died last January from cancer at age 9 (diagnosed about a year earlier) and we never used Malathion or had any trees or lawn treated with anything.

Our vet, who is also a golden fan, lost hers to cancer too. She said it's a big problem with golden retrievers. They are extremely prone to cancer, and often do not live to the 10 year mark.

Anyhow, I'm glad your current dog is well.

I am so very sorry to hear about your Golden. We have two, now. One is 9, and the other is almost 2. I love the breed, and just hate it that they are prone to cancer. The breeder for Blaze explained to me the background of both parents, and said there was no relationship.

It is heartbreaking to lose your dog, isn't it? I keep trying to think about what I could have done to prevent it, and there is no answer at all.

I am glad to hear what your Vet said.

Sammy

Jeri, you said it much better than I did: caveat emptor and the price of freedom...

I'll add, look before you leap, assume makes an ass of u and me, be here now, and people get the kind of government they deserve (which my mother used to write on a big blackboard in front of her store on election days).

My mother's answer to everything else was, "Go look it up." She gave me a Manx kitten for my 16th birthday and when I asked if it was okay for the kitten to chew grass, she said, "Go look it up." I've had a list of toxic plants ever since.

Yes, Sammy, it's always tough to lose a pet. It's so sad. I'm glad you got the family history of your goldens; this is very important. Golden retrievers are wonderful dogs, and we want them to be healthy and happy as long as possible.

According to the Golden Retriever Club of America, more than 60% of goldens die from cancer. There is nothing you could have done. You did everything right, and I'm sure your dog had a wonderful life. Thank you for being such a great owner!

There are a lot of great dogs and great breeds out there. I've had quite a few different breeds and mixed breeds. All breeds have characteristics to admire, but I can't think of a more trustworthy family dog than a golden retriever. I share your admiration of the breed.

Go easy on yourself and give those goldens a big hug from me. Ok?

CatsroseThose of us in the burbs and cities tend to live right on top of one another and any usage of garden sprays or other types of pesticide/herbicide directly effects not only the neighbors, but the runoff tends to get into the waterways. While I am not a big fan of the recent Âeverything must be PC craze, I do believe that being a good neighbor means you do not expose people or pets to toxic chemicals. Many people will buy something off the shelf at the local grocery/garden store and figure that, because it's being sold, it must be safe. Most homeowners don't even follow directions and if not used properly, sprays can drift downwind, linger in the soil and migrate via surface-water runoff. Pesticides know no boundaries and even with careful application, there is often runoff from lawns and gardens on the public sidewalks and streets. Animals walking in the neighborhood absorb these toxins through their paw pads. Children play and crawl and are in close contact with the ground. They put everything in their mouths. While I agree that the best defense is to investigate carefully, and I do practice this policy, we are not assured that our neighbors will do the same. I am not a big fan of ÂBig BrotherÂs  watchful eye, but I do think Âhe should be more involved in this area.

As to driving the car, plastics, grocery shopping and the like, NONE of which has anything to do with my original post--IMO every person should do everything they can to protect our resources. I buy my produce at the FarmerÂs Market. I use green bags, cotton bags and I re use any plastic bags I might collect. I use all my washing up water on my plants, use energy saving lights and I walk when I can and drive when I must. I am not proposing that everyone take these exact steps. But, bottom line: if each person does even one small thing, it will make an impact.

bottom line: if each person does even one small thing, it will make an impact.

*** And who better to take these first small steps than those who garden?

Jeri

Lionheart, thank you so much. You really have made me feel much better.

jbfoodie, You are making a tremendous contribution, and I should follow suit. You are so right about the chemicals getting into our water supply and washing up into our soil. So many products today are considered safe until proven toxic. There are so many huge prescription drugs that are being recalled because fo disastrous side effects. The FDA approves them quickly because they think there is such a need for them.

I was so shocked when my doctor told me that Vitamin D is not regulated. Since doctors everywhere are recommending that women take calcium and Vitamin D plus so many more vitamins, I thought there were governmental regualations on the products that the stores were allowed to sell.

You and Jeri are correct that even one small thing will make an impact. We gardeners are good at the small steps, but also we "forumers" are doing a good job also.

Hey Jeri, do you show or compete with your dogs? Mine is in school and has just completed Novice 2.

SAmmy

Lionheart, thank you so much. You really have made me feel much better.

jbfoodie, You are making a tremendous contribution, and I should follow suit. You are so right about the chemicals getting into our water supply and washing up into our soil. So many products today are considered safe until proven toxic. There are so many huge prescription drugs that are being recalled because fo disastrous side effects. The FDA approves them quickly because they think there is such a need for them.

I was so shocked when my doctor told me that Vitamin D is not regulated. Since doctors everywhere are recommending that women take calcium and Vitamin D plus so many more vitamins, I thought there were governmental regualations on the products that the stores were allowed to sell.

You and Jeri are correct that even one small thing will make an impact. We gardeners are good at the small steps, but also we "forumers" are doing a good job also.

Hey Jeri, do you show or compete with your dogs? Mine is in school and has just completed Novice 2.

SAmmy

I received an internal message prompt that said I had to contact such and such, and that my message would not go through. I tried again, and it still wouldn't go through. The third time, it was rejected because it had already been posted.

I am so glad that I teach Spanish and not computers. I don't understand this stuff at all.

Sammy

Hey Jeri, do you show or compete with your dogs?

*** DH and I have shown Dalmatians and Afghan Hounds in conformation at the Group and BIS level, and I
have shown Poodles and Dals in Obedience.
We've shown Dals for the last few years in Agility -- but both the Dal girl and I are much less Agile these days.
We're both now relegated to the role of Kennel Help and Cheering Squad.
The woman who "Superintends" many of the Agility Trials in Southern CA grows Old Roses.
Funny, how these things run together.

Jeri

Agility! That class was beside us in our Novice 2 class. It was super distracting. I am afraid to let my dogs go across those higher levels, and dalmatians are larger than goldens. You must be good.

I spent 10 years training assistance dogs and we taught them not to eat plants and to leave cats alone. In fact, they were not allowed to eat their dinner without a command! The breeds we worked with were: Goldens & Labs (as wheelchair dogs) and Corgis and Border Collies (for hearing-impaired). We had a few Labs that couldn't ignore cats (those dogs "flunked out") but all the dogs "got it" about eating plants and random items found on the ground. Good obedience training can be a life-saver. I don't have the warm fuzzies about ASPCA and prefer to get health information from the major universities with big research programs and from the AKC, which has a canine health foundation. In other words, go straight to the source. I don't think it's practical to try and eliminate every possible plant that could be a threat if ingested.

Barbara, the list of plants from the ASPCA and Purdue University are the same, but the ASPCA has a 24 hour phone number you can call.

Our club is AKC, but I don't know what level the training would be for wheelchair dogs. I lose my warm fuzzies for the AKC since the dog must be a thorough bred (pure bred, whatever) to compete. Our friend has two beautiful golden doodles that cannot compete for the AKC since they do not qualify - they are mixed breeds.

There were 4 or 5 Goldens in our class this last session, and they were all between 18 - 24 months. They trained well, but outside of training, they were all puppies. When we lined up to go in for the sit/down stay, we did not put any two together since we were afraid they would start playing.

I wish all dogs could be trained like the ones that are successful, but mine will not succeed. I want to take him into nursing centers or hospitals.

A woman in our neighborhood used to train dogs for seeing eye (I think). The dog lived with her, and trained with her until it was ready to be placed, then she would take another. I thought that was very difficult, but she said she always knew what the dog was being trained for, so it wasn't that bad. Did you do that? Did you take a dog into your home for a couple of years until it was ready to be placed? There are so many dog lovers who do that, and I still think that would be a very difficult task.

Sammy

Now, before you all pile on, I want to make it clear that I love dogs. I have had two dogs that lived a very long wonderful life and they were great companions.

That said; it is too bad that wraabits are not as dumb as dogs.

OK they are different, but it would be nice if my wrabbits developed a fondness for foxglove or something other than my prettys.

Who could argue with that? I would like to substitute voles, moles, and gophers that cause me to have to plant in hardware cloth.

SAmmy

When I was at the vets, I heard about a kitty who had sudden kidney failure from eating lilies. No amount of emergeny help or even dialysis could save her. I went home and removed every lily bulb I have and all my daylilies that I spent so much money to mail order. It isn't worth it to take the smallest chance. I love my pets far more and I'm sure all of you do too.

As I was watching my dog, and wondering what to do, I was thinking about the severe consequences if I waited. Sudden failure of anything struck me.

We also have many lilies in our yard. We have no fence, so we have a special fenced in yard for the dogs, and then the rest is my garden -- not too much yard, just garden. I have many lilies, and about 15 hydrangeas. I have larkspurs, and many weeds on thelist. We also have Johnson grass everywhere.

In my case I always have the dogs on a leash when they are out of their yard. My neighbors all have cats that they allow to just run, and as far as I know none of them have become sick form eating any of my flowers. Our neighborhood has a rather double standard between dog and cat owners. I do wish the cat owners would keep the cats from our yard so that they wouldn't frustrate the dogs so much.

I am glad that you pointed out the consequences of eating these flowers.

Sammy

My guess is that if Golden Retrievers are prone to cancer, there is still a reason why, and I don't believe it is all genetics. Their genetics may make them more sensitive to toxins in the environment, but I don't feel that the genetics themselves make these dogs get cancer.

Sammy, I'm glad your dogs are O.K. I've been researching the toxicity of every plant that I consider planting in my yard, after a friend pointed out how poisonous some are. One example is the Angel Trumpet plant. It sure is beautiful, but I found out that you can become extremely ill just from breathing in the fragrance of it. I didn't plant mine, and in fact, I disposed of it.

Sandy

Sandy, there is a reason that Goldens are prone to cancer and hip problems. I cannot prove it, but I have been lead to understand that they are victims of the puppy mills and backyard breeders who allow in-breeding. This process allows recessive traits to become more dominant. This in-breeding seems to justify hip problems, but then answer to cancer seems to lie in many places. That answer could come from our environment, food, or any number of sources.

We have read answers from many who have responded here. My Vet shook his head and said we don't have any answers for dogs or people. He said to just look at all the people who have cancer today. Something is wrong, and we don't have the answers yet. It could be that there are so many goldens that diseases are more obvious with them. I do think that they may be saved more than other breeds since there seem to be many organized rescue groups for them. This may not be true.

I know the sources of the toxic plants, but how did you find out how toxic the Angel Trumpet plant is? I don't really know how to determine what part of plants or how much would make my animal sick. When I read about the toxicity, I don't know if they are talking about a 5 or 10 pound kitten, or my 80 pound goldens.

Sammy

Sammy, FWIW, we grow many sorts of Brugmansia (Angels Trumpets).
All of them are in un-fenced parts of the garden, where the dogs don't go --
but we have in the past had them in the main garden.
The dogs avoided them.
They have also avoided CLEMATIS, azaleas, Iris, Sweet Peas, Morning
Glory, Tomato leaves, avocado foliage, philodendron, dumbcane, and several other toxic plants.

Brugmansia are toxic in all parts.
They are hallucinogenic, as are Datura (Jimson Weed).
I've never seen a dog touch one, but every couple of years, some fool either smokes or ingests Brugmansia, in
pursuit of a "high."
This can be fatal.
Dogs seem to be smarter than some people.

Jeri

"I don't really know how to determine what part of plants or how much would make my animal sick. When I read about the toxicity, I don't know if they are talking about a 5 or 10 pound kitten, or my 80 pound goldens"

Regarding the parts of plants that are poisonous, this list is helpful:
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/
It lists species effected and poisonous parts. But it is not all-inclusive (for instance does not list Lillium - deadly to cats.)

This one rates the degree of toxicity:
http://www.plantsciences.ucdavis.edu/ce/king/PoisPlant/Tox-COM.htm
If a plant rates high in the toxicity class, amount ingested becomes less relevant for me. It isn't just instant reactions I'm wary of, but long-term effects as well.

http://envhort.ucdavis.edu/ce/king/
This one has a 'safe' list as do many other organizations.

http://www.cfainc.org/articles/plants.html is more cat specific.
But you can google 'poisonous plants dogs' to find more dog-related lists. BTW, I think Lillies are probably not as deadly to dogs as they are to cats.
Marlene

Rooting out daylilies bcause lilies are toxic is another example of care gone awry. The two are not related and daylilies are edible - and are a food item in China.
I grow a lot of toxic plants - digitalis (which nothing touches because it is so bitter), monkshood, hellebores,lily of the valley, hydrangeas.... And I've had 7 generations of dogs, not one of which has been affected by eating poisonous plants. Nor have they been affected by the sprays I use on roses. Of course, I do exercise some discretion - keep the dogs inside when spraying and they aren't let out until everything is dry. And stay away from the most poisonous kinds of insecticides (fungicides generally safer). The idminacloprid I use as an insecticide is the same substance applied to the dogs to kill and repel ticks. I notice my lab is eating little green apples and I expect she'll regret it but they are hardly poisnous. The shepherd is a picky eater and sticks to dog food. But they both like witch grass - I just wish they were more enthusiastic about nibbling it down.

Daylilies may not pose a risk to dogs but they do to cats. Cats that ingest daylilies can experience gastrointestinal distress and acute renal failure. I think 'care gone awry' would include ignoring this fact if you have cats.

Oldroser, I am not sure that you, I, or anyone else really knows what is affecting animals or humans anymore. I understand that your animals may not have died as a direct result of having eaten some of your plants, but we just do not know what is affecting animals or humans.

We do not even know for sure how modern medications are affecting us from one year to the next.

I think it is important to exchange information, and make our own decisions. And those of us who have had losses, and wonder why, should not be accused of "care gone awry". So much of this subject is simply our opinions, and in our own homes and gardens, we have a right to determine for ourselves what we think it safe. I treasure all of these cautions since I want to be very careful.

Sammy

I know this is an old thread-but with gardening season coming up I think it's worth revisiting.

The chemicals used in gardening do not receive the stringent testing that the FDA requires for drugs. Most EPA tests are for short-term exposure and toxicity. There is no requirement for long-term follow-up and reporting of adverse events. Chemicals claimed to be "safe" today may be found to contribute to Alzheimer's or autism or Parkinson's 20 yrs from now. Any chemical toxic to insects will have some effect on mammals. There is too much genetic similarity. The effect may only be slightly weakened immune system or only affect a particular stage of developing fetuses and so subtle that it may never be known.

There is already a link between certain pesticides and Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma which was found to be more prevalent in farming areas. More interesting-canine lymphoma has been used as a study model for non-hodgkins because of its similarity. Vets have noted that there is a higher incidence of canine lymphoma in affluent areas where chemically treated lawns are common. In this case, dogs are "the canary" because chemicals are absorbed through their foot pads and because many will consume grass directly.

For those of you complaining about Big Brother and spraying of toxic chemicals about being a "personal choice", etc., you need to remember that the chemicals you use travel beyond your own yard. Even a light breeze will carry off small particles and rain will wash off chemicals that landed on the intended plant. I read one post from someone who was knowingly going to use a ground water contaminating chemical because HER own water source was from far away. Apparently, she didn't give thought that people living near her source might feel the same way. Nor did she care where rain might carry her chemicals-into rivers and bays where it could kill crabs and cause tumors in fish.

Already, people's blood carry traces of about 200 chemical contaminants. We are clearly poisoning ourselves. Please use garden sprays responsibly and choose "greener" alternatives when possible.

I'd like to add one or two things about Vitamin D...

It is CRUCIAL that you take Vitamin D supplement (along with Vitamin A) during the winter only. Cod Liver such as Garden of Life brand is best. Did you know that during spring through fall when it's warm enough to wear t-shirt and shorts that your body can easily make 10,000-20,000 IU of Vitamin D a day after 15-30 minutes of sun? During that time, you need to make sure you're taking enough Vitamin A.

your body knows when to stop producing Vitamin D when your body has enough. It even destroy Vitamin D in the body only if you're outside in the sun. You can overdose Vitamn D from supplement but not sun. Go figure...

Anyway, Low level of Vitamin D and A is probably the biggest reason why everybody gets sick during the winter. Flu is always the worst during the winter. Interesting, huh?

fyi, Many online sites that list poisonous plants seem to.disappear or change content. One of the sites I referred to in an earlier post (http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/ ) no longer lists the part of plants that are toxic. I sitll have the hard copy I printed but I wish they would update this information - their current lists contain less info than they used to. I read that if you have cats/dogs that are hungry outdoors, they might likely turn to plants. Some cats (like a couple of mine) would eat plants regardless. I don't plant plants that the UC Davis site rates as highly toxic.

We all grow toxic plants. Some of them are the most vermin-resistant plants out there. There's a reason we were told not to eat strange plants outside when we were small children. Puppies are no different from small children. The hours and hours of training we put into them when they are young repays us many times over their lifetimes. Don't dig in the garden, don't eat my plants. They can be taught, especially when they have other things to do and aren't bored and looking for entertainment.

As for chemicals and their evils...there are plenty we couldn't live without. I agree we need to use a rule of reason. My rule is: don't use anything if I don't have to. On occasion, I have to.

I don't have to use lawn chemicals. I don't have to use garden chemical often. Sometimes I have to use herbicides on plants that give me dermatitis and send me to the doctor - poison oak and a nightshade being the foremost examples. Sometimes I have to use BT to control tent caterpillars that are eating my fruit trees. This year, I have to use something for midge on one large rose that hasn't bloomed in three years. I'm not drenching the whole garden, just the area around this rose.

Any of us who live in in the country in high-tick areas know what I'm talking about. It would be impossible to have dogs where I live without chemical interventions. The ticks are barely tolerable as is. Even with three pointers spending their leisure time in search and destroy missions for vermin, they are wildly outnumbered by rodents that harbor ticks. I'm installing an owl box, with my fingers crossed that barn owls won't disturb the entire neighborhood with their loud calls. I still have to remove 15 - 20 ticks per dog each night, and that's with topical flea-tick concoctions coupled with fresh tick collars. Despite using these chemicals on my dogs, over the years, one tested positive for Lyme Disease and a second just tested positive for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. I wear permethrin-soaked work clothes when I venture out past the garden. I draw the line at DEET on my own skin. Not gonna do it.

We should all promote intelligent decisions with pesticides. I don't want to be without appropriate them when I need them.

You may be reasonable, Berndoodle but many people don't bother to do the research. And while you might be able to train a dog, it is harder to stop a cat as easily from walking through treated areas and then licking his paws.

This happened yesterday: I was talking to my neighbor who like me, has a tiny yard. He was talking about how he bought a chemical to kill snails and slugs and sprinkled it over a wide area of his yard. They have 2 dogs and 2 cats who roam outside freely. He showed me the chemical and the label clearly stated that it was deadly to pets. I gave him Sluggo to use instead. I used to let my cats out who would climb into my neighbors' yards. Ever since my community applied chemicals without first warning us, ever since my cats came in throwing up simultaneously within hours of that, I keep my cats indoors.
I think we all should be conservative about using harmful chemicals. They may be necessary at times, but considering the negative impact they have on our health and eco system it is important to be informed. People may say, 'well I'm just fine' after exposure to toxics. Just because you don't drop dead absolutely immediately doesn't mean there aren't cumulative, negative and possibly deadly effects later.

Regarding plants: I recently started planting plants that were listed as completely non-toxic. It was a little like being relegated to eating bread and water only. Now I plant varieties that may be mildly toxic but avoid those rated as extremely poisonous because my neighbors pets roam free. Some pets will never eat plants and never roam into areas they were trained not to. That wasn't my kitties.

Well, I have had plants for years that are toxic to humans if consumed in their raw form and to animals in that same form. Never had any of my cats or dogs partaken of any of them. They will eat greenery in the garden and in plants I bring in the house, but they don't eat poinsettia. They never bother oleander, azaleas, hydrangeas, foxglove, and on and on the list goes on of plants that are toxic. My grandmother always told me when you see them eating grass from the garden, they need fiber, they are constipated and or sick and need to release something in their digestive tract, but that they won't eat poisonous plants, that they have that sixth sense about them. Pretty wise old bird that grandmother of mine. Now, just don't put chemicals on your grass that your animals can consume while they are eating fiber.

I realize many people have not had problems with their animals consuming poisons. That has not been my situation. Patricia, your animals may not eat hydrangea but Sammy's apparently did. It's a personal choice about how cautious people are about these things and we are sharing our actual experiences here. Not everyone has animals who have a sixth sense about which plants or chemicals to avoid. Maybe I am miunderstading you but if (as I took your reply to say,) you are implying eating poison plants never happens due to the intuition of animals - I can't agree. On the other hand if you are simply just saying in your particular situation it hasn't, well that's a fact for you.

Riverspots, it was a surprise to see my old post return. I agree with everything you have said, but I understand that many good friends on this site have far different opinions, and I do respect those opinions.

As I respond a year later, I realize that most of us take care of our own animals, and I should have noticed that those beautiful hydrangeas were coming through the slats of the fence, and should have not thought it was cute that the dogs would grab the orchid buds that fell.

I cannot understand why cat owners feel that is is acceptable to allow their cats to roam at night.

Lou M, did you know that vitamins are not regulated, and Vitamin D and A can hurt us? I have also heard that you cannot overdose with the D from the sun, but I overdosed on the pills. I told my doctor that I was only taking a little more than 2,000 IU, and he said that for all I knew I was taking 20,000. I used a name brand from a good store, but he said they were not regulated and I had all the signs of an overdose. AFter stopping the D for a week or so, the symptoms went away. We all know that excessive A is dangerous.

Berndoodle, thanks. I allow the use of chemicals for termites. That is really necessary in our area. I also use DEET. Why do you dislike it so much? I always wear short sleeves, and crop pants, so I only spray a couple of areas. Your tick area is over the top isn't it? Our lot is on the larger size for a suburb, but we don't own farm property, and I can imagine that it would be overwhelming to try to control ticks on acreage.

huttnem, one neighbor at a time! Little by little if people are aware of what they are using, and if they are aware that the FDA does not control nearly what we think they control, we will greatly reduce the harm to our neighborhoods. We need to encourage others to only spray where it is needed. To coat the yard with a dangerous chemical to stop snails is downright silly.

Hi Patricia. Our dogs have their own yard, and also have the use of much of the house. Unfortunately they feel that they have a right to eat anything in their yard or our kitchen. We spill cheese, it's theirs. Thinking like a human, a spilled orchid became his, and either that or the hydrangea that spilled over to their yard made my dog very sick. We have doubled the length of the dogs' yard, and will not be bringing flowers inside now except for roses.

My dogs never try to touch any vegetation when we walk them, and they ignore my roses. I need to think more like a dog to protect my dogs. ha ha ha

I understand what Patricia was saying about her grandmother, but we live such a different life than our grandparents. My dogs are golden retrievers, but their life is not one where they can run in the fields, and burn their food like maybe nature intended. They can tend to overeat, and put on weight. Therefore, we control the food they get. Instead of digesting a bird or rabbit that might have fiber (ick), they digest dog food that is very expensive, and has the nutrients that the dog food company says they need. Mine would always like more, but the Vet says I am extending their lives by limiting their food intake, and keeping them slim. For this reason my dogs will tend to eat almost anything -- they don't have the instinct that a dog on a farm might have because we always take care of them.

Thank you all for your replies.

Sammy

After much research, I've discovered that a lot of times dogs eat things out of habit. Apparently some dogs are easily habituated to eating weird things. Mine don't eat plants. They prefer dirt. Yuck. In Florida we had sand so they didn't really eat it much, but here in Missouri we have that nice clay that forms small lumps, just the right snack size for dogs, and they love it.

I grew up in the country (on about 1000 acres of land before we started selling it off after we were no longer able to tend it properly). We had a lake, barns, animals, potting houses, hot houses, and after the crops went from corn to azaleas, hydrangeas and camellias, daylilies, etc., we still had the same dogs, the same cats (well, sometimes we had about 30-40 cats) but the same dogs and NEVER, NEVER, NEVER did we have a dog sick from something it ate. We originally had bulldogs as we had cattle and then later we had other dogs, mostly stray dogs that just came to live where they could find food and friendship. You would think if dogs were malnourished enough to partake of something that was not good for them, they would have done it in this environment, but no, they never did. Our dogs all died of old age after they were 15-20 years old. I think there is some kind of missing gene when dogs eat poison things. Now, cats, they are a whole other matter. It was "curiosity that killed the cat," (not the dog).