The Polite House: How to Handle a Grievance With a Neighbor and an HOA
A condo resident complains about noise from a toddler out with her mom on a 7 a.m. dog walk. Does the mother have any recourse?
Lizzie Post
October 17, 2016
Houzz Contributor. Lizzie Post is co-host of the Awesome Etiquette podcast http://www.infiniteguest.org/awesome-etiquette/, and an author and spokesperson for the Emily Post Institute. She is a co-author of Emily Post’s Etiquette 18th edition, Emily Post’s Great Get-Togethers, The Etiquette Advantage in Business, and Emily Post’s Wedding Etiquette 6th edition http://emilypost.com/books/.
Houzz Contributor. Lizzie Post is co-host of the Awesome Etiquette podcast ,... More
Dear Lizzie,
We live in a condo complex that’s run by a property management company. It’s mostly a landlord-tenant situation with a governing body or board of directors like a homeowners association. There’s a noise curfew between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m. I wake up and take our dogs out at 7 a.m. My daughter, who’s 2½, usually accompanies me. She likes to ride her glider bike next to me as I walk the dogs through the complex to do their business.
This being California, many residents sleep with their windows open. Some unfortunate occupants have bedrooms windows right next to the walking paths. One recent morning, I went out with my dogs and my daughter, who was doing toddler things like talking nonstop and shrieking a bit at a pretend “clouded leopard” chasing her. I try to be respectful of people who might be sleeping, so I tried to shush her, or ask her to talk more quietly, but if you’ve ever been around a toddler, you know this is often futile.
Next thing, I heard a very loud “Quiet!” coming from the bedroom nearby, and a slam of the window. Baffled and my blood boiling, I paused to see what would happen next, ready for a confrontation, but none came. I finished our walk and returned home, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that someone just told off (shouted at!) my daughter like that.
The next day, we received a letter from the property management warning us of noise nuisance, addressing the fact that we have small children but also that we have to respect the neighbors. I get that. But this is a child! I’m not going to muzzle my child, or tell her to stop talking or pretending to be chased by clouded leopards just because someone who chose to live here, in that unit, in that location, wants to sleep with their windows open!
We are upset that our neighbor didn’t come talk to us first, but rather decided to put in a formal complaint immediately.
Since this all happened, I’ve been stressed about taking my daughter outside, anxious about balancing trying to tell her to keep her voice down and trying to let her be a kid. I’m also nervous because I don’t know this neighbor or his or her temperament. At the same time, I’m like, no, this isn’t right. I can’t take my child outside at 7 a.m. to walk my dogs because some neighbor wants it absolutely quiet? I understand complaining about a rocking party blasting music into the wee hours. But just a regular life event like walking a dog with a child — that’s a noise nuisance?
Is there anything I could or should do? Any advice on handling aggressive neighbors? Or dealing with HOAs and other governing bodies?
We live in a condo complex that’s run by a property management company. It’s mostly a landlord-tenant situation with a governing body or board of directors like a homeowners association. There’s a noise curfew between 10 p.m. and 9 a.m. I wake up and take our dogs out at 7 a.m. My daughter, who’s 2½, usually accompanies me. She likes to ride her glider bike next to me as I walk the dogs through the complex to do their business.
This being California, many residents sleep with their windows open. Some unfortunate occupants have bedrooms windows right next to the walking paths. One recent morning, I went out with my dogs and my daughter, who was doing toddler things like talking nonstop and shrieking a bit at a pretend “clouded leopard” chasing her. I try to be respectful of people who might be sleeping, so I tried to shush her, or ask her to talk more quietly, but if you’ve ever been around a toddler, you know this is often futile.
Next thing, I heard a very loud “Quiet!” coming from the bedroom nearby, and a slam of the window. Baffled and my blood boiling, I paused to see what would happen next, ready for a confrontation, but none came. I finished our walk and returned home, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that someone just told off (shouted at!) my daughter like that.
The next day, we received a letter from the property management warning us of noise nuisance, addressing the fact that we have small children but also that we have to respect the neighbors. I get that. But this is a child! I’m not going to muzzle my child, or tell her to stop talking or pretending to be chased by clouded leopards just because someone who chose to live here, in that unit, in that location, wants to sleep with their windows open!
We are upset that our neighbor didn’t come talk to us first, but rather decided to put in a formal complaint immediately.
Since this all happened, I’ve been stressed about taking my daughter outside, anxious about balancing trying to tell her to keep her voice down and trying to let her be a kid. I’m also nervous because I don’t know this neighbor or his or her temperament. At the same time, I’m like, no, this isn’t right. I can’t take my child outside at 7 a.m. to walk my dogs because some neighbor wants it absolutely quiet? I understand complaining about a rocking party blasting music into the wee hours. But just a regular life event like walking a dog with a child — that’s a noise nuisance?
Is there anything I could or should do? Any advice on handling aggressive neighbors? Or dealing with HOAs and other governing bodies?
First, I would like to say that if I were being chased by a clouded leopard, I would shriek loudly too! That said, the issue at hand is most definitely a difficult one that tugs at the heartstrings of anyone who loves and wants to encourage the innocent imaginations of childhood.
The neighbor’s initial reaction was understandable but not very appropriate. Surely, I am not at my best when awakened before the alarm in those precious last minutes of sleep. It would have been better if the neighbor had leaned out the window and politely asked you to keep it down instead of screaming for quiet out the window and slamming it shut.
The neighbor’s initial reaction was understandable but not very appropriate. Surely, I am not at my best when awakened before the alarm in those precious last minutes of sleep. It would have been better if the neighbor had leaned out the window and politely asked you to keep it down instead of screaming for quiet out the window and slamming it shut.
He or she did, appropriately, lodge his complaint with property management. It seems by the letter that the management brought the issue to your attention, and did acknowledge and take into consideration that it was your young child who was being noisy. That said, the community rules are the community rules. Some people choose to live in communities with associations for just this reason. They buy into the rules of the particular community and have a third party to turn to for the tough stuff.
Removing the “adorable filter” that your daughter and the clouded leopard bring to mind, I recommend that you seek an alternative location for your morning walks. Seven o’clock in the morning is still considered an early, pre-social time of day. Although many of us rise before that time (and even before daybreak), social customs still deem this on the early side, and given the nature of how close open windows and sidewalks seem to be in your neighborhood, it’s a good idea to take noise elsewhere if possible.
When you’re in your home, of course you can do only so much to control a vocal child. But outside the house, you are in communal space, and it’s important to use this as a teaching moment.
When you’re in your home, of course you can do only so much to control a vocal child. But outside the house, you are in communal space, and it’s important to use this as a teaching moment.
You can try practicing “quiet play voices” with her. It may be that for the time being, you take her to a nearby beach, park or other open area (maybe even a nearby neighborhood where the houses are set back from the sidewalk). Here you can practice with her. There are lots of times when you can encourage her to be loud and uninhibited.
But it’s also not a bad thing to give her the skills early on to play in a manner that works with her environment. “Katie, we don’t want the clouded leopard to get us, so we have to be quiet while we run away from him! Let’s see how quiet we can be!” When she’s ready, by all means come back to your neighborhood for those treasured morning walks on home turf. But for now, if the dog walks have to be at these early morning hours, it’s probably best to go elsewhere or let her play at home.
What’s your question? To submit a question on etiquette around the house for Lizzie Post, send an email with the subject line “The Polite House” to edit@houzz.com.
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But it’s also not a bad thing to give her the skills early on to play in a manner that works with her environment. “Katie, we don’t want the clouded leopard to get us, so we have to be quiet while we run away from him! Let’s see how quiet we can be!” When she’s ready, by all means come back to your neighborhood for those treasured morning walks on home turf. But for now, if the dog walks have to be at these early morning hours, it’s probably best to go elsewhere or let her play at home.
What’s your question? To submit a question on etiquette around the house for Lizzie Post, send an email with the subject line “The Polite House” to edit@houzz.com.
See more from The Polite House
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Our Board only serves its board members and attempts to keep the dues as low as possible by doing as little as possible. They do nothing to bring the community together--rather abuse their power to harass co-owners.nnI have joined twice and spent meetings arguing because board members would not approve necessary repairs for which the Association was responsible. I refused to be party to their negligence and with two young children at home and a very busy husband, I did not need the aggravation.
Rules that conflict with local codes are not enforceable.
It is the duty of the Board to enforce the Bylaws and the rules. In this case, it sounds like some of the parties may actually be renters--in which they have no business dealing with the board or the Association directly, but rather their lessor. We have a renter who has been given permission to fly a university flag outside of the unit he rents. I have no idea if the co-owner even knows, but I shouldn't have to feel like I live in college housing. I have spent thousands having attorneys send letters to our Association and they have outright ignored them because one of the board members is an attorney and the board seems to think he will defend them for free and therefore allows him to harass us legally! There is only one option for us at this point, unfortunately. We are planning to sell our unit shortly and we need some repairs made. They are deliberately refusing knowing that a law suit will delay our ability to list and damage may reduce our value. They just want to hurt us because we have asked for needed repairs over the years and being on the board makes them feel "powerful".
What does "quiet time" mean in legal terms?