Well, since I raise my own beef, I've been known to eat it raw. As a result, I don't change utensils. (shrug)

Yes, I know all about raw beef, i.e. steak tartare and carpaccio, which I especially like. I will point out that I never eat commercial beef and if I did, I wouldn't eat it raw, those poor creatures are raised in conditions that are so vile it offends me.

However, I worry far more about raw/rare poultry than I do beef. I still don't switch utensils, though.

Annie

I'm with Annie. I only cook local ground beef from farms I know. I've been known to eat this raw, too.

Chicken is another story. If grilling, I wash the utensil I used to place pieces on the grill, but I'll use the same one to flip and to serve, unwashed between those latter steps.

I use a fork. :) Unless you mean patties? And I live in a city where the meat comes from the butcher/grocer, not directly from a farm. Still, the poultry is the greater risk.

If you're browning the ground meat to go into another dish, you don't have to worry. Otherwise, once the temperature is high enough to kill pathogens, switch.

I have never changed a utensil in my life and I don't know anyone who does. Have you seen professionals doing this? I haven't. Is food really so dangerous?

I'm with Islay. This is a technique that has not been mentioned in my food safety courses.

Yes and no on the food so dangerous. The percentages are with you most of the time, but sometimes they aren't. Botulism is very rare in the USA nowadays, I think, but when I was a kid you'd constantly hear about whole families being killed, and from commercial products, not just homemade. People are hospitalized regularly due to food poisoning. A couple of decades ago, a bunch of kids died from eating hamburgers at a national burger chain--the contamination came from the packinghouse, but the restaurants weren't following safety protocols. Now, most places, it's against food safety regs to sell a burger done less than medium-well (by a certain temperature) unless a disclosure about potential dangers is given to the customer.

A lot of the problems may be more significantly American. We have huge producers and factory sized packing houses, where animals are raised and kept in conditions that might make you wonder why more people weren't sickened. Now the big boys are advertising poultry with "no antibiotics ever" which is good for the fish, and for the people who are worried about trace antibiotics in the meat. Using antibiotics for artificial growth is horrible, and I'm glad they're moving away from that...but ever ??? So if the birds get sick...what? Dog food? Or more likely a sister brand that does not have that promise? I can't believe they destroy them over a curable infection...

Still, they're responding to consumer demand. There's also consumer demand for healthy and humane growing situations, etc., but that's a bigger investment for the growers and change is more trickle than rush. I call it the "new kosher" voting with one's purchasing power for better and more sustainable food production and humane treatment of animals. Yeah, the fraudsters get a share of the buck, but most, I think, are pretty ethical. Europe, for sure, is way ahead on these issues.

Botulism is not the issue here. The concerns would be virulent E. coli, or, esp. with poultry, Salmonella or Campylobacter.

I'm cognizant of it as I cook. Most everything I use chopped meat in ends up in a sauce or something, so I'll make sure the spatula is "cooked" for a bit. Or if there's a pot of water boiling on another burner I'll make use of that. How much I concern myself with it depends on the meat, chicken obviously more than beef.

For me, if the utensils used to handle the raw meat, whether tongs, spatula, spoon, aren't left in the pan, which is rare, towards the end of cooking I switch to another. I do this less with steaks, more with poultry, ground meat and pork.

I've never given it a thought. I make sure not to put a cooked product on the plate that had raw on it, of course.

I love DC's idea of keeping a pot of boiling water, and then using it for everything, utensils, cutting board and sink.

I'm trying to get into the habit of keeping a bowl of hot soapy water in the sink when I'm preparing chicken. Easy-peasy to wash my hands when handling chicken instead of messing with the tap and soap.

IMO, it depends on the utensil. I have a silicone spatula that easily rinses off, & I have some wood and bamboo ones that have rougher surfaces, which tend to get particles of meat stuck to them. Mostly I use a clean spoon for serving - which is more functional for that job than a spatula anyway.

Haha - my sink always has a basin of soapy water in it anyway, since I'm always doing dishes, it seems.

I never change utensils in the cooking process. Almost always, I do use a different utensil to serve with and that's only because a large spoon or ladle is almost always a better choice for serving with.

I do use a clean pan for cooked meat and never use the one that had the raw meat on it (unless it gets a quick hot soapy water wash.) That happens mainly when I'm grilling outdoors.

I'd have to say in all honesty that this is an issue that has never occurred to me (never even heard of it before now!) nor is it one that I would assign a lot of concern to. I am probably more laissez-faire about food safety than most....it was just the way I was brought up and learned how to cook. But then I think Americans as a whole tend to be overly focused on dirt and "germs" and anti-bactetrial potions and somewhat unnecessarily.......exposure to many of these organisms helps to build tolerance and/or resistance.

In the more than 50 years I have been cooking for family and friends and following my very casual food handling approach, I have never managed to poison (or even sicken) anyone so I'd have to wonder just how significant an issue this may be :-)) If I were handling food for the general public, I might have a more conservative outlook.

Don't mistake personal experience as representative of the larger population. Food borne illness outbreaks are perhaps more common than you might imagine. They often don't get national publicity, & more & more local reporting flies under the radar.

Meat production in our country has changed very much from when I was a kid in the 60s/70s & the potential for a great number of people to contract foodborne illnesses from meats has increased significantly because of that.

Here's a link to my favorite site for the latest info on food borne illness outbreaks, types, & safe practices:

http://www.barfblog.com/

We rarely eat out, but so many more people do these days & some workers & proprietors (not to mention average folks) seem to be unaware of proper food safety practices. I still recall a wildly popular sports bar/restaurant near our local stadium that was shut down a few years back because of the numerous violations found by inspectors - horrifying things I won't mention here...

When I was a child my mother was a hospital cook. She never was to use the same utensil twice in anything she cooked. Unfortunately for the dishwasher - me - she did the same at home. I admit that I don't do the same - except for poultry, about which I'm a fanatic. I do like the idea of the boiling water on the stove.

I use 2 spatulas. The first one until it's almost cooked, maybe with one or too small pieces of red meat. Then I switch. I don't risk it, just because I once poisoned myself with raw chicken once. I make sure all meats are thoroughly before I eat it!

I run my dishwasher every night and more if I am cooking a lot and it's no trouble to throw another spoon or set of tongs in. I have lots of everything for this purpose.

I hadn't thought about it and I agree that I should be sure that I am careful. My first thought was that most all my cooking with a spatula was on the BBQ and that it was probably safe because I transfer most meat from a plate directly to the BBQ with a hand and use the other hand for any other needed manipulation until I returned to wash my hands. The meat almost always got seared and more before a flip and by that time was probably germ free. Any spatula squashing would be performed after searing the other side in an enclosed BBQ.

However, I realized I have been searing pork chops in a pan with spatula pressure on the raw side. This spatula probably gets very hot with later semi liquid manipulation and simple steam heat while resting in the pan, but it might not be hot enough to kill everything. I will have to be more careful, thank you.

Laceyvail, you're right. We're not talking about botulism with meat. I was talking about general food safety and got into a bit of a muddle. A lot of people are taking up canning without any knowledge and I'm always thinking botulism is going to come back in a big way if these people keep on as they have been.

Same for the meat safety. Even factory bred poultry, which has the worst harmful bacteria rates isn't that likely to poison you, but it happens enough to take proper precautions. Basilcook has been so poisoned, and in one of the Thanksgiving threads, a poster said her son had been very seriously ill from it.

Ground meats, as Linda said, are a big issue. I've tried doing my own at home, and it's not worthwhile for me. So I'm careful, both about the meat I let into my house and about how I handle it. And I'm careful with whole cuts as well, because why not be careful?

I'm surprised so few of you concern yourselves with the cleanliness of the utensil. I'm constantly cleaning mine as I cook. If I am using one with raw meat, I will clean it toward the end of cooking so it will not contaminate my cooked meat. I suppose the high heat would kill the germs but I don't take any chances. I watch them cook at the food court place that makes chicken teriyaki and they use different utensils when the meat is raw then they use when it's cooked. I actually watched to make sure they weren't contaminating my chicken!

I have an instant hot (nearly boiling) tap on my sink. I definitely run my spatula or utensil under the hot water a couple of times as I stir fry meat. If it's chicken or turkey, I'm more cognizant and will likely change utensils.

My husbands father was a doctor in Canton Oh until he retired. But he told me many times that Thanksgiving and the following week were the busiest in the ER for food borne illness. Undercooking when the turkey is stuffed, improper thawing, food left out after cooking to long and eating it days past its safe time...he also thinks cross contamination while preparing the turkey is high on the list.

I've read quite a few times in cooking where you all mention not to wash poultry, this is exactly what my FIL has told me every year when I get the lecture. I don't wash poultry. LOL

Sometimes you really do want to wash the turkey, such as when it's been heavily salted in preparation. It's not so hard to do so safely, but most people can't be bothered: Clear away all items near the sink. Yes, especially when making a feast and your counters are packed. Get them feet away. Wear an apron you can put straight in the wash. Put some torn off the roll paper towels not far from the sink as well as a open trash can with a liner bag. Clean the sink leaving cleaning supplies out for after. Set the roasting pan near it. Put the wrapped turkey in the sink and remove the wrapper to the trash ca being careful not to drip. Wash the turkey being careful not to splash or splatter and noting where oopses happen. Remove pinfeathers, trim off excess fat, etc.

If your method is to dry the turkey, use some of the paper towels while it's still in the sink. Otherwise, make sure to let all the loose water drip off/out. Move the turkey to the roaster. Wash the sink and surrounds, especially the places you noted that might have been splattered. Dry with a paper towel (or two) and throw it away. Wash your hands well. Remember that the turkey isn't disinfected just because you rinsed off the excess salt. Be careful of what you're touching with turkey hands as you season and stuff the bird. I like to use the baggies style food service gloves that slip on and off easily so I can slide out of them to touch something then slide back in to touch the turkey. Throw away promptly and wash your hands.

The very best way to prevent the largest portion of cross contamination is to wash your hands often. If they feel dry, rub them with olive oil (or any cooking oil). That way you're not getting lavender hand cream on the turkey. :)

The best way to prevent food born illness is to be clean. That's double especially true when everything is crazy and crowded and chaos seems to be in charge.

So again. I do worry about this.. Lol and I do have a little ocd.. but

Heres what I usually do... I put the ground beef or sometimes beef tips into the skillet and then chop it all up with a spatula or fork(sometimes a wooden spoon).. then I use this same spatula (or fork or spoon) to mix up the beef while its cooking the whole time. Then right at the end when its browned. I grab a new serving utensil, stir it up a little more and serve it.. So Im using that same initial utensil to cook the meat the whole time. And then switching utensils at the end to serve.

Am I being safe enough?

IMO you are. But then I have never gone to 99% of the time and trouble others appear to take :-) I only switch out utensils to serve or dish out of the pan IF the one I was using to cook/stir with was not as efficient for that purpose.

Yes, I think you are safe and the same as I do.

Good lord, there are enough things to worry about today and this is NOT high on my list! I've been cooking for over 50 years as an adult and I've never made anyone sick or killed anyone yet.

Yes, I think you are safe. I owned a bar/grille a long time ago and took all the food safety courses. We were told that it was necessary to use a different utensil for serving than for cooking so if we made chili, after it was cooked it got a ladle for serving, not the big spoon that we used while making it. Same for gravy. I wish I could say the same for hamburgers because I'm sure that sometimes I'd flip the burger and use the same spatula to lift the cooked patty onto the bun.....

Although I said I don't switch utensils, I do use a different serving utensil after the meat is cooked than the one I use for stirring/turning while it cooks.

It's not a safety issue for me, but I'm not going to serve a dish using the larger wooden spoons or spatulas that I used to stir or turn the food while it is cooking, they are too large and cumbersome to travel to the table for serving.

Annie

All of this is about having good habits and understanding potential contamination points. When you inspect a home kitchen, it has huge amounts of bacteria all over, but even in what we might call "dirty" kitchens, food poisoning is relatively rare. So when we talk about best practices, it's for having the habit and consciousness, more than dealing with a high likelihood occurrence. It's actually a slim likelihood, but I don't want to be the one in 1000, or whatever the number is, when being a little careful couldn't have prevented it.

The whole idea about vaccination is to introduce germs into your body to exercise your natural defense system to make it stronger.

We need germs. Our body cannot survive in a germ-free environment. People are so much healthier in cultures where people don't care about "food safety".

dcarch.

People die of food poisoning, dysentery, cholera, typhus, etc.,. where they don't care about food safety. Good for thinning the herd, maybe, but not if you're the sick one! I wasn't advocating bleaching the kitchen. I agree about challenging one's immune system. But preferably not with salmonella, listeria, e. coli and the like.

I'm a utensil switcher.

"---People die of food poisoning, dysentery, cholera, typhus, etc.,. where they don't care about food safety.---"

I am not talking about in areas where people look for food in garbage dumps. I am talking about areas where they don't practice "food safety" the same way we do. Go to any place in China, Hong Kong, Japan, Roasted ducks are hung in open hot tropical weather all day long, billions have eaten then without getting sick.

We are living longer than many other areas because we are "living" artificially on $3.2 trillion dollars in medical expenses annually. This $3.2 Trillion does not even include all the money each family spends on "sanitizing" their homes.

dcarch

Then why are you boiling your knives and utensils?

Although I've never studied it scientifically, I have a sensitive stomach that I tend to attribute to food safety. There are patterns. Independent restaurants versus chains, eating at certain people's houses, etc. Where I eat seems more the factor than what I eat.

"-----Then why are you boiling your knives and utensils?----"

I have two standards. Cooking for others, I go to extremes, including sterilizing using germicidal UV light in the kitchen. For myself? Anything goes.

I was in a restaurant once. My fork fell. I pick up the fork from the floor and continue eating with it. A lady on the next table, in a very condescending manner, lectured me, "You know, the waiter would not mind getting you a new fork. Don't get sick eating with that disgusting filthy fork!"

I took my fork, pick up a piece of chicken from my plate, wiped the floor with the chicken and ate it.

Nasty of me. I admit. :-)

dcarch

dcarch, I wouldn't really care about if I dropped my fork on the ground, but I've been poisoned several times at places and I don't risk it.

Sure, a lot of people think it's harmless, but I'm very sensitive and get sick very easily and fast if I consume even a small bit of uncooked meat. Especially chicken. I even get sick from a rare cooked steak!

Basil, I have the same issue with chicken and beef but am not particular about dirt.

Dcarch, I'm not sure where you are getting your information regarding foodborne illness, vaccination, food safety, the impact of foodborne illnesses worldwide, etc., but it's misinformation. Foodborne illnesses are a major problem, worldwide. But, by far, the worst problems are in areas where they don't care about food safety. People are not healthier in areas where they don't care about food safety. The people who live in these reasons are very much impacted by foodborne diseases. I thought you might be interested to read some of what the world health organization has to say about foodborne illnesses, and their impact, in different regions, worldwide. They have completed a recent, extensive, study which very much contradicts what you have written.

http://www.who.int/foodsafety/areas_work/foodborne-diseases/ferg/en/

"Go to any place in China, Hong Kong, Japan, Roasted ducks are hung in open hot tropical weather all day long, billions have eaten then without getting sick." All I can say is that billions have eaten foods prepared and stored in an unsafe manner in China, Hong Kong and Japan (and surrounding areas) and HAVE become ill. These areas are very much impacted by foodborne illnesses, much more than in areas where we currently do more to prevent foodborne illnesses.

Even your ideas about vaccination aren't quite right. Vaccines introduce attenuated (weakened) viruses or parts of viruses into people's bodies so that we will form antibodies. Then, when exposed to the fully virulent viruses, the antibodies that we have already formed are available to neutralize the infecting viruses. When you say that vaccines are about "exercising our natural defense systems to make them stronger" this is not really a correct statement; it's more along the lines of a simplistic, but not actually correct, explanation given to people with little or no understanding of immunology and microbiology.

Also,

" I've been cooking for over 50 years as an adult and I've never made anyone sick..." That you know of.... But, foodborne illnesses don't necessarily show up promptly after someone has ingested the affected food. It can be multiple days and the illness is often just a bit of diarrhea. Foodborne illnesses are highly underreported, because most cases are self-limiting. It's also common that one or two people will get sick out of a group where everyone has eaten the same food, because of uneven distribution of the infecting agent (or toxins) throughout the food. So, as examples, one piece of chicken or one or two hamburgers or just the top of the potato salad or just the one corner of some food may be affected.

[1 Like[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/spatula-contamination-worries-when-cooking-ground-beef-dsvw-vd~4964520) Bookmark

" ---- Foodborne illnesses are a major problem, worldwide. But, by far, the worst problems are in areas where they don't care about food safety. People are not healthier in areas where they don't care about food safety. ----"

Major problem worldwide, in areas they don't care about food safety. I agree, but in the areas I mentioned that is not the case. Also, I am not sure why you think that I am proposing to do away with food safety. All I am saying is that the food safety practices in the USA are excessive, obsessive and Germaphobic and in the long run not beneficial physiologically and psychologically for anyone.

""Go to any place in China, Hong Kong, Japan, Roasted ducks are hung in open hot tropical weather all day long, billions have eaten then without getting sick." All I can say is that billions have eaten foods prepared and stored in an unsafe manner in China, Hong Kong and Japan (and surrounding areas) and HAVE become ill."

Perhaps that is your experience, certainly not mine. As a matter of fact go to any Chinatown today in the USA, you will see what I am talking about. Go to Paris, and you also can see they don't worry about food safety the way we do.

"-Even your ideas about vaccination aren't quite right. --- "exercising our natural defense systems to make them stronger" this is not really a correct statement; it's more along the lines of a simplistic, but not actually correct, explanation given to people with little or no understanding of immunology and microbiology."

Actually I was kind of quoting a medical researcher at the Rockefeller Institute (NYC), who is a friend and a Nobel prize winner in Comparative Pathology. I was visiting him in his germ-free animal research laboratory. We were discussing physiological abnormalities of animals which live in a gnotobiotics environment.

Let me tell you I got a good lesson there in how they keep everything germ-free.

dcarch

"Perhaps that is your experience, certainly not mine."

What I'm saying is that your testimonials about people not getting sick from unsafe food handing and storage are not scientifically valid. No testimonials are. The WHO has done studies, including the one I mentioned previously, about the burden of foodborne illnesses in various regions of the world. They, and multiple other researchers, state that foodborne illness is a significant problem in China, Japan, and surrounding areas. They state that food handing and storage are a major factor in foodborne illnesses. I didn't mention anything about MY personal experiences because testimonials aren't scientifically valid.

If you want to know, just for fun, about my personal experiences, we had a family friend who died of liver flukes that he picked up from eating improperly prepared food in one of the areas you stated was a place where they care less about food safety and so you believe the people there are healthier.

Your friend at the Rockefeller center was obviously giving you a simplistic explanation about how vaccines work.

I completely disagree that food safety practices in the US are excessive. There are an incredible number of cases of foodborne illness that occur each year in the US. It is well-known that the vast majority of them are not reported.

You are entitled to your opinions. But, your opinions are just that and they are not at all in line with what the science actually tells us.

I do not intend to get into a protracted discussion with you. I just don't have the time, inclination, or energy. I also doubt that you are open to anything I would say, anyway. I actually never thought YOU would listen. I've said what I wanted to say, and I said it so that other people here can read what I wrote and then think about things...I just could not leave your pseudoscientific statements to be unchallenged.

I really thought he was trying to make the point that if you're using a spoon to stir your raw food, then it's quite ok to carry on using it til the end of your recipe. No one is going to suggest putting cooked chicken in a board that has previously used to cut up the raw bird etc, but, and we're talking about cooking at home here, you dont need to panic about a spatula!

Depends who is eating your food, also. We try to be pretty careful here (I do swap utensils partway through cooking, for example) because I'm immune compromised and my mom is also, and she gets stomach upset super easily. (She has a blood cancer so is on chemo basically forever, which does a number on your system.)

After seeing how sick she gets very easily, I try to practice good habits all the time, it's just easier.

What someone who is immune compromised or on chemo needs to do is very different than what the general public should do in the kitchen.

Until I started reading this thread on GW, I had no idea there were so many people who were so obsessive about safety and cooking in the home. I guess you all don't allow your dogs and cats in your kitchen, either.

For those of you who have a medical need to be extra careful, here are some of my ideas. Of course you need to do your own research:

1. For a clean environment, just like a research lab, you need to develop a one way traffic system to your house. As you enter into your house near the entry, everyone should take off his/hers shoes and change into clean shoes before walking around the house.

2. Install a central vacuum system. Regular vacuum is bad. even with HEPA filters.

3. No carpeting.

4. Install UV germicidal light in you air conditioning duct system.

5. I don't think washing fruits and vegetable is good enough. Too many nooks & crannies and tiny air bubbles. Get an ultrasonic vegetable cleaner.

6. Boiling may not kill all pathogens. Since you can't afford a lab autoclave, use a pressure canner instead to clean whateven can fit inside.

.7. Absolutely check your refrigerator temperature.

8. Don't kiss.

dcarch

The thing is, you may not know who is immune compromised. Neither my mom or I look sick, and we don't go around announcing our health problems to all and sundry. Dcarch is making light of things by suggesting completely impractical steps to take, but there ARE things people can do in the home that reduce risk and are within the bounds of what is possible in a normal kitchen and a limited budget. (Unless someone wants to give us money to install a central vacuum?)

Should everyone be as careful as possible? Probably not. But it's a good idea to be aware of these things so you can make the choice how to do things. (It's not just people with cancer who are more at risk from food borne illnesses, either. Elderly, pregnant women, young children...)

My dog is banned from the kitchen during cooking, but only because the kitchen isn't large enough so if he's in the kitchen he's underfoot. He hangs out by the doorway so he can watch. He absolutely wouldn't be allowed to climb on the counters, though.

I really don't see any reason to mock those who take a few extra precautions while cooking. I'm always cognizant of what's touched raw meats and avoid cross contamination, wash my hands repeatedly during cooking, microwave my sponge multiple times during cleaning, etc. It's become second nature and adds negligible time to my routine (certainly less time than I'd spend on the pot if I get sick) so why not?

We've all got different risk tolerances for different things. I rarely think to put on my seatbelt (unless I've got a passenger who complains about the chimes, or if I see a cop) but it would never occur to me to mock someone who buckles up religiously just because they stuff fifty people into and on top of cars with no safety belts in some third world countries.

"---Dcarch is making light of things by suggesting completely impractical steps to take, but there ARE things people can do in the home that reduce risk and are within the bounds of what is possible in a normal kitchen and a limited budget. (Unless someone wants to give us money to install a central vacuum?)---"

The method I suggested are commonly used in medical facilities and computer chip making facilities. For those who are documented to have medical needs, many of the devices may be insurance deductible.

"---I really don't see any reason to mock those who take a few extra precautions while cooking. I'm always cognizant of what's touched raw meats and avoid cross contamination, ---"

I agree. But we must distinguish what is excessive and normal, when our president Trump is suggesting the elimination of shaking hand.

dcarch

my response cross posted with dcarch directly above

Well, exploring an alternative view is not in itself mocking, and I didn't see any intended. PirateFoxy: I don't believe that Anything that dcarch suggested directly above was unreasonable.

On the other hand, I believe dcarch was suggesting the opposite in our reliance on modern extremely expensive medicine. Not that we shouldn't do or use it, but that we should be aware of the comparative effort/expense compared with third world areas. He was suggesting that part of our better health was due to 'impractical' (really expensive) medicine rather than in our extra food handling caution that was possibly unnecessary.

to say that the people in 3rd world situatuons do just fine eating meat that has hung all day in the open with flies walking on it that have just walked in the open latrines is to ignore the health problems of those countries. Ever see a plump person in a little village in Brazil, Ecuador Kenya, Tanzania...etc?
My grand daughter spent a mission year working with the very poor in Ecuador. she lost 15 pounds she didn't have to lose and spent 2 months with an intestinal bug. She got to a Dr and got an antibiotic to cure it....but she still came home with a parasite in her gut.
We are used to being well....and know how to stay that way.
But that said, I brown hamburger with the same spatula throughout the process....but wash the tongs and platter after I put the meat on the grill.

And we also know that getting sick with a virus or bacteria often provides some immunity to that organism, I prefer to avoid the sickness altogether. Because i am immune to polio because of a vaccine doesn't mean that i am also immune to camplobacter. Recovering from one illness does not "strengthen your immune system".