Haven't set foot in one of their stores in a very, very long time and cannot imagine the circumstances that would prompt a visit.

Ugh, isn't that what free speech is all about? I know nothing about Hobby Lobby's religious stance but I will defend to death their right to hold it. Just as I will practice my religion exactly as I see fit to do.

I cannot comment, because I cannot find a working page with the ad to view. Makes no sense to bring something up, then not give a source link that people can choose to view, or not.

"Heavens no, not in this forum" contingent is overblown by you, as I know you put me in there--even though you completely misrepresented what I wrote. The oh, woe I cannot post stuff routine is not an attractive suit. If you want to have a meaningful discussion about the ad, at least provide some excerpts or a way for us to see it.

Everyone has the right to say whatever they wish. Of course. I just think what they said is inappropriate and offensive. The premise of my comment was, this isn't a religious holiday and I think efforts to slant it in that direction are an insult to everyone.

Let them waste their money buying print ads like this daily because the more thoughtful people see how extreme their views are, the less that company's words will be listened to. If so, it could get to the point where that message becomes widely ignored. I'm all for that.

Try This link To download a PDF

Turn the page.

I also didn't care to see that ad this morning. Nationalism and religion are two separate entities and implying that they go hand-in-hand is offensive to me. Good thing we decided finally end our 34-year subscription when it's up in August.

Ok, that is multi-gag-worthy. But they are talking to "their base"/ the people that shop there or don't care about the business' religious practices. So how is it a waste of their money, when so many of their customers agree with what it says?

I have intentionally not set foot in their stores for many, many years, so I am certain they don't care about my opinion. They have a right to run the ad; we have a right to think what we want about it's content. Personally, I am offended by it, too. But that business became political with their health coverage case, and the resulting ruling. Frankly, I care more about that, which has substantial consequences.

Elmer, you really need to take this over to Hot Topics.

And what is a textural comment? I assume you mean textual. But what is a textual comment? Is it a Biblical quote?

Dh mentioned that. I still haven't looked at the paper. Grabbing it now.

Ok, like Gyr_falcon said ... multi-gag-worthy. I refuse to set foot in that store. If Michael's doesn't have what I'm looking for I don't buy it. Here Chick-Fil-A sits in the same shopping center. Another business I don't support.

David Green buys crap made in other countries by slave labor. WWJS about that?

See gyr, I'm sure there are many more things we agree on. And the forum police are patrolling, as I suspected.

Why did I say waste of money? They may not realize that the effect of pieces like this may be to develop more opposition than followers of their positions. As before, we have free speech as do most developed countries. Both what they say and what anyone says in reaction to same can and should be expressed.

A typo, graywings. I type too fast sometimes.

Hobby lobby has run similar full paged ads on all holidays for years. I don't share their religious beliefs. But I also don't get offended by those who do.

I respect them for standing on their convictions and running their business the way they see fit. Feel the same way about Chick-fil-A. I find boycotts over politics and religion to be rather silly but to each their own.

Here is the link to the history of the ads for those who are interested or curious.
http://www.hobbylobby.com/about-us/holiday-messages?modal=god+bless+america

In my old age, I can live and let live. There are a lot of things in this world that I don't completely agree with. But it's OK.

I don't find their ads as offensive as I do the completely anti-religious comments often found in the pages (the Comments sections in particular) of the NYTimes. I don't happen to share Hobby Lobby's believes but am religious.

I do think that many people today who identify as Christian (not "born again" - just plain old Christians) find comments that we are "not a Christian nation" offensive. God is mentioned in the founding documents of this country, and was a Christian God at that time as that's what the vast majority of our early settles/founders where, having come from Christian nations. We may not have a "state religion" such as England and some other countries, but most of our laws and customs are based on the Judio/Christian codes and commandments. The growing secularlization, much of it with overt religious hostility, is very troubling to many people of good will and moderate philosophy.

I have no problem with people standing up for their own beliefs, even if I don't agree with them. It is their right and I will defend it.

anglo, I think you're a thoughtful person and I respect your personal beliefs. But some of the things you've said aren't quite as you describe them.

- American law is a combination of common law and civil law in its roots. These are human in origin, not divine nor Biblical, though of course some of the human creators may have had religious influence. And many didn't.

- Many of the founding fathers, certainly many of the more influential ones, were deists, not evangelical Christians or even practicing Christians. And not to forget that they were all land-owning white men who viewed women as sub-equal, the common man as sub-equal, and each African American slave as 3/5ths of one human for census purposes. Should we aspire to follow all of their views, only the ones we like, none, or something in between?

- Many people who prefer an inclusive and strictly secular society are also people of goodwill and moderate philosophy.

Here's an article from today's Washington Post on this topic

What religious beliefs were and weren't held by the founders

I would never set foot in a Hobby Lobby store.

See gyr, I'm sure there are many more things we agree on.

*shrug* I have never thought otherwise. Agreeing with you tends to go smoothly; unfortunately, disagreeing with you results in replies that are almost always condescending in nature. Even on topics where you are not the most informed, or in a position to be in the know. I don't respect that type of uneven behavior, so often I refrain from commenting directly to your posts, regardless of whether I agree or disagree.

Why did I say waste of money? They may not realize that the effect of pieces like this may be to develop more opposition than followers of their positions.

I feel most people already know the type of company policies and beliefs HL embraces, so whatever damage would be the result has already long ago been accounted. They are reinforcing the loyalty of the believers, who sometimes pretend to be under some type of national persecution. The apathetic customers don't care one way or the other. But it is a small point overall. They probably run those ads because with their beliefs they want to, and they legally can.

Ah, it is back. I posted the above last night, and the thread got flagged out from under me. That is why I suggest Hot Topics sometimes. I don't care personally, but there are enough KT members that don't want any topics of this nature in this forum, that they flag it and it gets pulled--often never to be seen again. It makes trying to have a discussion frustrating and, especially when people have taken a lot of time to research their contributing information, a waste of time.

I love Hobby Lobby. We live in the good ole USA and are free to express our opinions openly. If you don't like their ad turn the page. There are a lot of things I don't care to see or read. TV shows are awful these days. Turn the channel and it is gone.. That is what freedom is all about.

"It makes trying to have a discussion frustrating and, especially when people have taken a lot of time to research their contributing information, a waste of time."

Well said.

"If you don't like their ad turn the page."

Those who suggest turning the page or changing the channel are missing the point. This isn't about personal beliefs and preferences, it's about public opinions in the public square. When a public statement is made that one disagrees with, I believe the only reasonable response MUST BE to speak up and politely offer that different point of view. That's the other side of "free speech" This isn't a personal theological or moral conversation in a religious setting, it's a public one.

Turn the page/change the channel means ignore it and be passive. Speaking up and having a conversation means to engage with it so that both sides learn more about the others perspective. Otherwise, only one side is heard. The sponsors of that ad are welcome to state their opinion. Only by hearing other opinions is it possible to understand and make an informed decision. And yes, some people don't go through that step to understand and make informed decisions. They act on and embrace what they hear without further thought.

When a public statement is made that one disagrees with, I believe the only reasonable response MUST BE to speak up and politely offer that different point of view.

You MUST BE exhausted. :)

The heart of the problem is the lack of basic education in America about the *history* of America. It's necessary to call attention to 'alternative reality', not let it be passed off as truth because "it's not polite" to question personal beliefs.

Haven't read all the posts, but I agree with Elmer, and with those who note that Hobby Lobby can say what they want. Just as I have the right not to patronize their stores (If there were any around here).

That is truly a laugh-out-loud post, gyr falcon.

Hobby Lobby ... too "moral" to provide contraceptive coverage to employees, not moral enough to refrain from illegally looting war-torn country.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/united-states-files-civil-action-forfeit-thousands-ancient-iraqi-artifacts-imported

United States Files Civil Action To Forfeit Thousands Of Ancient Iraqi Artifacts Imported By Hobby Lobby ... Cuneiform
Tablets Were Falsely Labeled as Product “Samples” and Shipped to Hobby
Lobby Stores, Inc., and Two Corporate Affiliates

"Earlier today, the United States filed a civil complaint to forfeit thousands of cuneiform tablets and clay bullae.
As alleged in the complaint, these ancient clay artifacts originated in
the area of modern-day Iraq and were smuggled into the United States
through the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Israel, contrary to federal
law. Packages containing the artifacts were shipped to Hobby Lobby
Stores, Inc. (“Hobby Lobby”), a nationwide arts-and-crafts retailer
based in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, and two of Hobby Lobby’s corporate
affiliates. The shipping labels on these packages falsely described
cuneiform tablets as tile “samples.”

The government also filed a
stipulation of settlement with Hobby Lobby, in which Hobby Lobby
consented to the forfeiture of the artifacts in the complaint,
approximately 144 cylinder seals and an additional sum of $3 million,
resolving the civil action. Hobby Lobby further agreed to adopt internal
policies and procedures governing its importation and purchase of
cultural property, provide appropriate training to its personnel, hire
qualified outside customs counsel and customs brokers, and submit
quarterly reports to the government on any cultural property
acquisitions for the next eighteen months.

The complaint
and stipulation of settlement were announced by Bridget M. Rohde, Acting
United States Attorney for the Eastern District of New York, and Angel
M. Melendez, Special Agent-in-Charge, U.S. Immigration and Customs
Enforcement (ICE), Homeland Security Investigations (HSI), New York.

“American
collectors and importers must ensure compliance with laws and
regulations that require truthful declarations to U.S. Customs and
Border Protection, so that Customs officers are able to scrutinize
cultural property crossing our borders and prevent the inappropriate
entry of such property,” stated Acting United States Attorney Rohde. “If
they do not, and shippers use false declarations to try to
clandestinely enter property into the United States, this Office and our
law enforcement partners will discover the deceit and seize the
property.” Ms. Rohde thanked U.S. Customs and Border Protection for its
role in intercepting shipments and safeguarding the seized antiquities.

“The protection
of cultural heritage is a mission that HSI and its partner U.S. Customs
and Border Protection (CBP) take very seriously as we recognize that
while some may put a price on these artifacts, the people of Iraq
consider them priceless,” stated Special Agent-in-Charge Melendez.

According to
the complaint and stipulated statement of facts filed with the court, in
or around 2009, Hobby Lobby began to assemble a collection of
historically significant manuscripts, antiquities and other cultural
materials. In connection with this effort, Hobby Lobby’s president and a
consultant traveled to the UAE in July 2010 to inspect a large number
of cuneiform tablets and other antiquities being offered for sale (the
“Artifacts”). Cuneiform is an ancient system of writing on clay tablets
that was used in ancient Mesopotamia thousands of years ago.

In October 2010, an expert on cultural property law retained by Hobby Lobby warned the company that the acquisition
of cultural property likely from Iraq, including cuneiform tablets and
cylinder seals, carries a risk that such objects may have been looted
from archaeological sites in Iraq. The expert also advised Hobby Lobby
to review its collection of antiquities for any objects of Iraqi origin
and to verify that their country of origin was properly declared at the
time of importation into the United States. The expert warned Hobby
Lobby that an improper declaration of country of origin for cultural
property could lead to seizure and forfeiture of the artifacts by CBP.

Notwithstanding
these warnings, in December 2010, Hobby Lobby executed an agreement to
purchase over 5,500 Artifacts, comprised of cuneiform tablets and
bricks, clay bullae and cylinder seals, for $1.6 million. The
acquisition of the Artifacts was fraught with red flags. For example,
Hobby Lobby received conflicting information where the Artifacts had
been stored prior to the inspection in the UAE. Further, when the
Artifacts were presented for inspection to Hobby Lobby’s president and
consultant in July 2010, they were displayed informally. In
addition, Hobby Lobby representatives had not met or communicated with
the dealer who purportedly owned the Artifacts, nor did they pay him for
the Artifacts. Rather, following instructions from another dealer,
Hobby Lobby wired payment for the Artifacts to seven personal bank
accounts held in the names of other individuals.

With Hobby
Lobby’s consent, a UAE-based dealer shipped packages containing the
Artifacts to three different corporate addresses in Oklahoma City,
Oklahoma. Between one and three shipments arrived at a time, without the
required customs entry documentation being filed with CBP, and bore
shipping labels that falsely and misleadingly described their contents
as “ceramic tiles” or “clay tiles (sample).” . After approximately 10
packages shipped in this manner were received by Hobby Lobby and its
affiliates, CBP intercepted five shipments. All of the intercepted
packages bore shipping labels that falsely declared that the Artifacts’
country of origin was Turkey. No further shipments were received until
September 2011, when a package containing approximately 1,000 clay
bullae from the same purchase was received by Hobby Lobby. It was
shipped by an Israeli dealer and accompanied by a false declaration
stating that the bullae’s country of origin was Israel.

In executing
the stipulation of settlement, Hobby Lobby has accepted responsibility
for its past conduct and agreed to take steps to remedy the deficiencies
that resulted in its unlawful importation of the Artifacts. Hobby Lobby
has agreed to the forfeiture of all of the Artifacts shipped to the
United States.

The government’s case is being handled by Assistant United States Attorneys Karin Orenstein and Ameet B. Kabrawala."

I saw the ad, and i was not offended. Im a christian, and i believe the United States was founded on christian principles. Our constitution has served us well, and in my opinion we are the most successful republic in the history of the world. Are we perfect? Certainly not. But i wouldnt want to live anywhere else. Our founders risked everything...all their possessions, their homes, their lives. We are so blessed that they had such wisdom and courage.

Proud to say I've never spent even a nickel in HL. Their type of religious freedom is tantamount to intolerance for anything and anyone who doesn't lock step with them.

We all have the right to do say whatever the heck we want, but I think our President has shown us that just because we have the right to do something, doesn't necessarily make it right and that's all I'm going to say.

ETA: This is in response to all the posts here that have responded to Elmer's thread with, "Freedom of speech, they have the right to do it."

I don't know how much a full page ad in the San Jose Mercury News costs but I would be willing to make a small contribution along with others so that Elmer could run a full page ad of his choosing across from Hobby Lobby.

It would be totally worth it and the look on the face of the HL CEO and other big frogs in the the HL pond would be priceless.

Come on Elmer. Make your bones.

I'm a big fan of the separation of church and state.

Nah, Lucille, I don't believe in shouting down those I disagree with. As I said before, much to the amusement of some at the words/phrases I produce when typing quickly and not paying much attention, let everyone have their say. And no matter what's said, let those who disagree say so and why.

I'm sorry but it's instructive that there were several instances of cliché comments of sound bite length on both sides of this issue. chisue's comment is appropriate.

CindyMac, thanks for the information about more of Hobby Lobby's hypocritical conduct.