Quarryhill is such a woodland that I don't know that I can even remember the shape of the tree. It's the fall color that I remember. I don't think Nyssa is a good stand-alone tree no matter the species, but I'll ask the Director for his thoughts (he's a friend). He sees it every day. There are likely more than one, but there is one near the entrance and so that's the one that I see all the time.

Sweet Lane is strictly wholesale. They sell to me because I have spent years ingratiating myself and the owner went to high school with my next door neighbor, etc etc. Also because we are a ranch we always have equipment to unload deliveries (and helpers). When they send out trees, even in huge boxes, they just send a driver!

Photo Locations: Quarry Hill Botanical Garden - Santa Rosa, CA, Strybing Arboretum - San Francisco, CA, UC Berkeley Botanic Garden - Berkeley, CA, Hoyt Arboretum - Portland, OR and The National Arboretum - Washington, DC

http://selectree.calpoly.edu/tree-detail/nyssa-sinensis

I thought I had located a Nyssa sinensis at Whitman Nursery in Salem, OR, but they are out of stock, as is their referral to Forest Farm Nursery. So Sara, i look forward to what you learn from Quarry Hill. Lucky you to have access to Sweet Lane......

Seed grown Nyssa sylvatica is reported to be quite variable, but there are cultivars that seem to take away the guesswork as to whether they will make good specimen trees. I have wanted 'Afterburner', but I've had no luck finding it anywhere. JfSchmidt in Boring, OR is a big wholesaler with it and also I believe the introducer along with other cultivars of Nyssa (Red Rage is another) but findng one locally or otherwise is another story. Their plants are typically in 24" boxes (not a mail order size!) and the majority are shipped to the East and Midwest. OTOH, I had recently located a cultivar called 'Wildfire'. Its uniqueness is that it leafs out with red burgundy colored leaves and doesn't turn full green until August or so. It is of typical species size (big) so I remain interested in Nyssa sinensis.

Thanks for the helpful web link to those photos of Nyssa sinensis. The two photo examples make it appear quite variable in habit.

Echolane here is Bill McNamara's comment about the one at QH: You are correct that our Nyssa sinensis is on the entry path (we only have one). Ours is very symmetrical, good looking with great red fall color. Not sure about its drought-tolerance, but I doubt it. I have never seen it in the wild, our was a gift from someone.

Hope that helps!

In my area I'd be concerned about it becoming invasive, but CA may be a totally different situation. I know birds love to gobble the fruits and spread them far away.

Can't become invasive here; no summer rain. It might invade your garden, but can't escape! I've never had my Nyssa seed, just sucker.

Nyssa is invasive in another way......I've pursued the root suckering issue and not only does Nyssa sucker, but after cutting one down, it suckers profusely and potentially for several years, and it seems it is very difficult to kill the suckers.

Now I wonder if Nyssa sinensis does the same......I'll have to check on that.

"I wouldn't say the autumn color, on average was better than the Nyssa sylvatica. The smaller size would be the main advantage."

Embo is usually right about these things.

So if you're going to use up precious Bay Area water on a Chinese plant for fall color, might I suggest Parrotia subaequalis? The most breathtaking fall color I have seen on a shrub! Though I admit I probably don't have a picture handy...it's only about 5' tall so far. This year it had a gorgeous 2 tone effect of flame orange and deep burgundy, but I think I was so rushed getting ready to go to AU I didn't have time to take a snap.

It gets to be a small tree and is probably slightly slower growing than Nyssa. An upright cultivar of Parrotia persica might work, too.

Sara - it's cool to have friends in high places ;-). Next time you chat with Bill, ask if they ever tried Dalbergia hupehana, the hardy Chinese rosewood tree. Seed was briefly offered by Sheffield Seed so it is able to be sourced in China. The bark is ornamental if not exactly stunning, off-white and somewhat flaky. As you know I saw Quarryhill on my trip out there and was impressed with how well they have executed their mission so far.

David, not surprisingly, you sent me off to google the two Parrotias, which are certainly interesting. I'll certainly consider them though I've got my sights on the Stewartias too. And in spite of Sara's warnings, the Cladrastis lutes as well.

Stewartia you definitely don't want to let dry out.

I persist in my attachment to non-native plants :-(. The area gets regular summer water for some azaleas, skimmias, dwarf conifers, etc. And I supplement with a deep watering for the Nyssa, (which is the tree I'm going to replace)..

Stewartia tough here unless you happen to have acid soil, but if you can grow Skimmia, you can probably grow Stewartia. I was going suggest Parrotia - my 'Select' was brilliant this year. 'Persian Lace' is gorgeous all summer - no burning in full sun despite the variegated foliage. 'Vanessa' is fastigate. All are reasonably drought tolerant. Bill's comment about the fall color on the N. sinensis should be taken seriously - I remember that tree because it's so brilliant in fall.

David most of what they have at QH they collect themselves (seed) which is why Bill noted that they only had the one Nyssa because it was a gift.

As with other Persion Ironwood I like the foliage but otherwise I tend to be bothered by how congested the interior structure of 'Vanessa' often looks - as though somebody had tied the branches together for transport.

The Parrotias in general look very dense, including Vanessa. I usually like something a little more open. Amelanchier lamarckii is said to be open and airy, but shallow rooted which I'd like to avoid if possible. This is not so easy.... maybe I'm back to Ginkgo Princeton Sentry.

I haven't found any on line source of Nyssa sinensis. Whitman and Forest Farm both out of stock. Seed available from Sheffield.

I have two 'Vanessa' but I have pruned them. They don't look congested. Echolane I suspect that N. sinensis, given its origin, is a high-water tree, not a drought-tolerant one, for what that's worth.

Completely off the wall suggestion, but have you looked at Parkinsonia 'Desert Museum'? It's extremely floriferous (blooms about 4 mo) and very decorative in winter due to the green bark. May be too desert-like for you, but I have quite a few of them, either stand alone or in small groups. Very airy and the bees and hummingbirds love them.

I think you should visit accessible collections in the area and see what looks good to you.

In person.

Maybe the closest one is the San Francisco Botanic Garden. Nearby there is also the arboretum at U.C. Berkeley.

Parkinsonia 'Desert Museum' - What an interesting tree! Complex genetics, thornless, airy, long flowering period, drought tolerant... pretty! But on the downside, it's desert-like nature is the opposite of the companion plants it would join. I think the real con for me is size as it seems to grow like a weed and will quickly get too broad a canopy to be suitable.

I did come across an interesting small tree, a Cercis occidentalis 'Rising Sun'. Good root system too. But too broad to be ideal; might make a good shrub too..

I am back to thinking about a fastigiate Ginkgo, assuming I can count on its described slow growth. The ideal one would be 'Fastigiata', but I can't find it. Princeton Sentry is my second choice. Drat, Urban Tree Farm closed on Tuesday's, so I can't check if they have Princeton Sentry in stock.

Good suggestion, Embo, and something I would ordinarily love (!) to do. Unfortunately, older age, a painful back, and frustratingly, I am not as portable as I used to be. San Francisco's arboretum might be doable. I would also love to visit Quarry Hill that Sara has mentioned and see that Nyssa sinensis for myself.

But that would put me in touch with my other frustration, wouldn't it, which is finding something I want only to find it unobtainable.

"But that would put me in touch with my other frustration, wouldn't it,
which is finding something I want only to find it unobtainable."

Welcome to advanced gardening.

Forest farm is showing this one.

https://www.forestfarm.com/product.php?id=2029

Very cool! Thanks :-). It's a reminder of how fascinating our world of gardening is because of flexible genetics and sports and brooms. In truth, I probably need a tree with a little more width so the skimmias and azaleas can have a little shade. (Or maybe I should take them out and put in something more sun tolerant - hmm)

Can't resist showing this photo I took at nearby Stanford Shopping Center in early fall. Spectacular setting for some Ginkgo trees. Wish I knew the variety.

Here's my wayward growing Nyssa sylvatica that I feel I ought to replace. Notice how the central leader is leaning off quite a bit and how a side branch threatens its leadership. I tried to correct the lean with the stake but my ladder wasn't tall enough to do a better job.

Heres a photo of the bed it's in. It's small. Dimensions from fence to retaining wall about 14'. House is only 20' from fence, hence my wish for a more fastigiate growing tree.

The first tree I grew in the Nyssa spot was a Styrax japonica. Nice tree but I grew to hate the zillions of seedlings I had to root out every year. Zillions. It was replaced by an Acer griseum which looked really good for many years, but eventually sickened with dieback, more every year. As a side note it's fall color was a major disappointment and I hated it's surface roots. Then came the Nyssa, a tree I have long lusted after for its wonderful fall color and it's natural somewhat narrower width than most trees. This Nyssa lives up to its fall color reputation, but the problems with the leader and potential root suckers tarnish things, not to mention that it's eventually a very BIG tree for such a small space and that's beginning to frighten me a little.

Could be that the Nyssa's re-leadering is due to trying to get out of the shade of the nearby conifers.

If you want a fastigate Ginkgo, check out 'Golden Colonnade'. Colors reliably in fall - a beautiful, buttery yellow. I just got one at Sweet Lane after seeing that block in fall color.

Could be that the Nyssa's re-leadering is due to trying to get out of the shade of the nearby conifers.

It had a slight lean when I bought it, but the leader was only a few inches long. I should have tried to correct it immediately because I soon realized that as it grew, the angle of the lean would remain the same, and it would just grow at that same angle and get farther and farther off center. Two years ago, I added the stake, but by then it was too little too late..

Ginkgo Golden Colonnade looks nice. That buttery yellow fall color sounds a strong plus as it's much prettier than some of the harsher yellows in some cultivars (which i hasten to add I've only read about but haven't seen). Would have to search for it, as I can't buy from Sweet Lane. Do you know how it might differ from Princeton Sentry?

Not sure but I do think that the color is better. If you have a local landscaper you could get that person to order it for you. Or you could call them. Ask for Jim, tell him you know me and see what he says. They are closed for the rest of the week (maybe the year). One problem with buying from them is that they probably don't deliver to your area and even if they do, they send the truck out with only the driver. They are really only set up for wholesale. They will sell to Master Gardeners, if you know a Master Gardener that person could buy it for you.

We have pickup trucks so we could pick up. Do they sell things in smaller sizes than 24" boxes? It was hard enough to plant the 15 gallon Nyssa with so many plants around.

I'm pretty sure I can find a local San Mateo Master Gardener in my garden club; we also have a great local forum that helps with things like that.

Yes they have #15s. Not sure if they have GC in #15, but I can check for you if you want.

The plot thickens..... Decision time.

I kept clinging to a hope I can find Nyssa sinensis, so I phoned Forest Farm Nursery, whose catalog says they are out of stock on Nyssa sinensis, but it turns out they have three tiny ones, the largest only 1' tall.

So, finally, it is decision time. Nyssa.sinensis or a Ginkgo. If it's a Ginkgo it should probably be Princeton Sentry because it is narrower and less dense than Golden Colonnade and therefore more suitable for my small bed.

If I want instant gratification the Ginkgo is a no brainer choice. But Nyssa calls out to my plant collector nature. Had it been available I would have already chosen it. But because it so tiny I hesitate. (At my age, it gets harder to wait on things to grow.)

I could plant the little Nyssa very near the existing Nyssa, let both grow until the little Nyssa got large enough to make some sort of statement on its own, then get rid of the older Nyssa. Or grow it in a container until it got big enough and then replace sylvatica with sinensis.

What do you all think?? Which would you put in that spot?

If you want to use less water, the Ginkgo. If you don't care, it's a matter of personal preference.

It wouldn't surprise me if I could find Nyssa sinensis at a retailer here - they have certainly had them before. Have you called around locally?

I've spent the morning calling around for a Nyssa sinensis. It is definitely not in general commerce in my area, but there is one possible - East Bay Nursery/Berkeley has had them, will try to order for me. There is probably a message for me in this: it lacks suitability for this area and will want a lot of water to stay nice. I am hoping my high water table will lend a helping hand.

Meanwhile I am grabbing two little ones from Forest Nursery in Oregon.

It'll be awhile before they are tree size!

Thanks to all for listening and helping while I've stumbled to this decision.

Different specific plants come and go all the time, whether or not you can find any particular item at any given moment doesn't necessarily reflect on local suitability at all. And you already know there are established examples of this one in nearby collections.

These should grow at least a couple feet per year, maybe more, with sufficient care, while young and vigorous. Look how tall they are even in the tubes.

An heir and a spare :-)..

I'm pleased -- they're bigger than I imagined and it looks like they have lots of roots spilling out from the containers. I think I'll leave the existing Nyssa another year and plant them both in containers for a year.

Whatever the reason, there does seem to be a definite lull in online availability of this tree. Still, locally, all but one of the nursery people I talked with this morning had never heard of it and I don't think Nyssa sylvatica is commonly available around here either. I probably should have called nurseries in Sonoma County where it's less urban and nurseries seem more imaginative than in my area. Might still do that.

We also have a lot of nurseries up here. Since QH got it as a gift, they likely don't propagate it (since they still have only one). They have sometimes been a source of interesting plants for me.

Just as a follow up, I've had to give up my search for Nyssa Sinensis. I've called dozens of nurseries in San Mateo, Santa Clara, Alameda and Sonoma Counties. East Bay Nursery in Berkeley was my last hope as they thought they could order it for me. But no, it's just not bring grown. They did comment that the number of wholesale growers are shrinking due to the economy. I'm pretty sure that means that rarer trees will become rarer.

" They did comment that the number of wholesale growers are shrinking due to the economy."

Past tense. From my perspective the process mainly happened from 2008 to 2014. Probably one of the broadest "extinct events" in any industry to have ever happened, recently at least. Though I don't know if that has really been studied by an economist. After all, you can't store wholesale plants in silos, you can't easily export them to other countries, you can't "outsource" to a cheaper country to save money. When the economic downturn happened and the RE bubble collapsed, a lot of them had no choice but to go out of business. Of course there was some wise bargain shopping, like the guy from Vancouver IIRC, who already owned some wholesale nurseries and bought Briggs the fabled rhododendron wholesaler.

it's just not bring grown

This Oregon company is listed for it.

http://nurseryguide.com/find_companies/detail/kinens-big-phat-special-plants

I've given up on it on getting it. Local nurseries have their regular wholesale sources where they have to meet a minimum order. I'm pretty sure there's no way I'll get my local nursery to order enough plants from a non-regular source while meeting some minimum so they can order one plant for me.

I don't think it's just wholesalers that took it hard in the real estate bust. We have fewer retail nurseries in our area today.

Here's an article:

http://archive.vcstar.com/business/nurseries-struggling-to-recover-from-housing-collapse-ep-364019836-352183001.html

It seems the yards in most new developments are smaller now than they used to be. Less room for trees and shrubs. Heck, I used to do some yards in trailer parks that were larger than a lot of new yards in subdivisions today.

Mike, Sad to hear that yards have become smaller which means backyard habitats for wildlife will also be downsized.

Your comments about the industry sent me on a google search and I came across this fairly interesting article. Here's the first paragraph:

It’s estimated that since 2008, around a third of all plant nurseries in the U.S. went out of business. The industry was hit hard by the housing bust, competition from big box stores, and some bad winters, to top it all off. But the plant industry’s roots run too deep for it to disappear, and many nurseries are looking for niches to survive their economic winter: sell online, sell interesting, sell weird.

https://www.marketplace.org/2015/03/26/business/plant-business-trying-sprout-again

Hopefully this means that rare plants won't disappear. I love to roam nurseries in search of something different or unusual and big box stores are the worst sorts of places for my type of gardener/plant addict, but it's hard to find a retail nursery that dares to indulge in the unusual. I'm fairly lucky in that my closest nursery often offers unusual plants, but it's definitely atypical. The other nurseries in my area are not much better than the big box stores.

Yeah, a garden is different than a yard. :-)

I have some potentially bad/sad news to add to this thread.

After buying two seedling plants of Nyssa sinensis, I received a phone call from a Berkeley nursery where I had left word that I was looking for Nyssa sinensis. After we straightened out that it was sinensis, not sylvatica they got back to me indicating they had sourced one at a wholesaler, that it was a bit unsightly, neglected, but it was Nyssa sinensis. We drove to Berkeley, took the tree in a 15 gallon container for $195 plus tax, bridge tolls and gas. We did some judicious pruning which took away a lot of the ugliness, sorted out what should be a good header and sat down to wait. It has turned out to be a very beautiful tree and I’ve been super pleased.

Until this week when I saw how different were the spring leaves. The tree from Berkeley has smaller shiny leaves. The seedling trees have significantly larger, dull leaves with considerable bronzing. Looking up the numerous descriptions of leaf size and other characteristics of sylvatica and the fewer of sinensis, the various descriptions of sylvatica closely fit our Berkeley tree while the descriptions of sinensis closely fit our seedling trees from Oregon, now 4’ and 5’ tall.

i have an iOS app for plant identification. It consistently identifies the Berkeley tree as sinensis. It has several different identifications for the seedling trees from Oregon, doending on which photo I submitted. . For example, Avocado, Emmenoptyris henryi, diospyros virginiana, Hamelin patens, Hymenodictyon flaccidum, another avocado, etc. but never sylvestris or sinensis. I am checking to see if sinensis is in their plant database. I suspect not. But significantly, it isn’t identifying any of the photos I submitted as sylvestris!

i strongly suspect I’ve been mistakenly growing sylvestris the last few years!

Tell me what you think.

Here are leaves of the Berkeley tree. I can’t easily take many photos because the leaves are too high on the tree.

Here are leaves of the Oregon tree. In contrast, I can easily get many photos.

The leaves of the Oregon tree perfectly match the dimension cited for sinensis at 6” long by 3” wide. They are also duller and have much bronzing.

All the leaves for the Berkeley tree match the smaller dimension cited for sylvestris: “The leaf shape is oval, elliptical or obovate. The leaf upsite is green and glossy. The leaf is 5-12 cm (2 – 4.7 in) long. The leaf margin is wavy and smooth.”