Cold food, cold canner, need reference to advise NOT to do this

8 years ago

I follow NCHFP guidelines. I always start off with hot jars and water in the canner pre-heated, regardless of whether doing hot pack or raw pack.

On another site, which claims to promote safe canning and NCHFP guidelines,
I have seen people advise it is ok to start with cold jars in cold water in a
cold canner when starting with cold food, such as raw pack veggies, meat, or
pre-prepared cooked foods such as soup or chicken stock from the refrigerator,
then start the heating process with the cold canner.

I know this is NOT okay, but I can't find a reference that specifically
states you can't start cold food in a cold canner. The people who on that
site who usually correct bad, incorrect, or unsafe information have been silent
on this topic.

My understanding from previous Harvest Forum posts (which I can't find) is
that the water temp in the canner, hot jars, temperature of the food, and
temperature of the liquid added to the jars are all factored into the tested
processing times, but I need to find references.

I just re-read the instructions from Bulletin 539, USDA Complete guide to Home Canning, and the instructions are all there for pre-heating jars and canner, but no mention is made of what NOT to do.

Can anyone point me towards a reliable source for this
information? Our instructions and
recipes tell us how we should do it, but I haven't been able to find anything
specifically about how NOT to do it or why.

Thanks,
Jill in Texas

Featured Answer

digdirt2

8 years ago

"Specific instructions about how NOT to do it" likely don't exist as it is impossible to prove a negative. That's why we can only advise against rather than disprove the methods some insist on using, the "I've never been sick yet" camp of home canners.

Further common sense and common scientific fact underlie most of the guidelines. One should not have to prove to others that cold foods won't reach 240 degrees temperature in the same amount of time that hot foods will reach 240 degrees. That it will take longer amount of time. That is something we should learn in elementary school or at least by high school chemistry. :-)

Rather these folks on the other forum are making the assumption that by the time the cold water they start with comes to a boil and the canner begins to vent the cold foods inside the jars - ALL the food inside the jars - will have also reached the boiling temp. They are disregarding the effects of density on the penetration of heat. They are disregarding the differences between heat penetrating liquids vs. solids. So while their jar of plain liquid broth might (although they can't prove it) have reached boiling, their jar of vegetables or meat will not have. They will still have what are called "cold pockets" of food in the jars where bacteria can still survive. As the temperature climbs to 240 those cold pockets will continue to lag behind UNLESS sufficient time is added to the calculated processing to also bring them up to 240 for the required amount of time.

So, NCHFP Publication: Heat Processing of Home-canned Foods

states:

The time and temperature combinations at which C. botulinum, its spores and other bacteria are killed are established under certain conditions. However, the substrate (food) in which these bacteria are found is an important variable factor in the rate of destruction. The food factors that will influence the amount of heating needed to kill bacteria include: the consistency of the food; the pH (acidity); and, the presence of nutrients that are “protective” for bacteria (e.g., high protein and sugar levels). Other influences on the amount of heat delivered to the food in the jar are: the shape and size of the jar; the size, shape and texture of food pieces; the solid to liquid ratio; the temperature of the food at the beginning of the process; and, the temperature inside the canner. For example, heat penetration through a mass of liquid (faster) will be very different from heat penetration through puréed or mashed food (slower). This is apparent during stove-top cooking too, where different foods heat up differently based on their composition and consistency.

If the food is thick, puréed, or mashed; if there are large pieces of food in the jar; or, if the food is packed in too tightly, heat penetration can be slower than in more liquid or loosely packed foods. If a specific heat process is not calculated for each food and style of pack, the heating may not be adequate, and the food will be underprocessed. (The bold marking above is mine.)

It then goes on to explain how, with the use of thermocouples and extensive testing, the correct processing times are determined. So unless these folks are duplicating that thermocouple testing in their home kitchens, their cold food into cold water is being underprocessed.

They will ask, if that is true then why then do some foods have the same processing times for both hot and raw packed foods. The answer is that during testing it was determined that in many cases they actually aren't the same. Hot processing requires a few minutes less but the hot processing time was rounded up to the same times for user convenience once it was determined that quality was not affected much.

Why are hot and raw pack processing times sometimes the same?

Hot pack and raw pack variations, if they are offered in USDA recommendations, have each been researched separately. This includes collecting heat penetration data and calculating an independent process time for each. So the process time is determined by the actual heating characteristics of the pack. Depending on preparation procedures and the type of process, the final result may be the same. Other times, it might be different. The temperature of the process (boiling water or pressure) and the length of the process needed can influence the differences between hot and rack pack rates of heating. Another consideration is that USDA home-canning processes are rounded off to the next higher 5-minute interval. If the hot and raw pack process times vary by less than 5 minutes, but in the same interval, the recommended process time will be the same. For example, if the hot pack is calculated as 11 minutes and the raw pack requires 14 minutes, they will both get rounded off to, and published as, a 15-minute process time.

Of course you and I and most well-informed canners recognize that all this debate wouldn't even be necessary if not for the fact that some flat out insist on finding personal shortcuts or doing what is convenient for them rather than simply following the tested and approved guidelines. But sadly you likely aren't going to change their minds.

Hope this helps.

Dave

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Comments (7)

theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
8 years ago
last modified: 8 years ago
The people advising starting with cold water and cold foods aren't going to listen regardless of what you say or what publications you show to them. It's so much easier to just let stuff like this go. I've seen discussions like this before and it almost never ends well.

In this instance the water in the canner will heat up faster than the food in the jars. It's a fact and there's no getting around it. However, people try to by saying you need to slowly bring the canner to temperature. Apparently they think it is a waste of time to do things the right way and they'd rather wait for an unspecified amount of time for the jars of food to hopefully heat up inside the canner before they start processing.

Rodney

P.S. I am still far away from being an experienced canner. Very far. haha
pqtex thanked theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)
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pqtex
Original Author
8 years ago
Thank you both for the information and words of wisdom. I hate getting into discussions like that, and Rodney, you are right, they never seem to end well. I have not said anything the times I've seen this subject come up, and it's been hard not to say anything, but I'm not able to articulate the reasons or rules like Dave can. I know to follow the guidelines and to make sure I understand those guidelines in such a way that know I'm following them correctly, but I don't worry anymore so much about the whys and wherefores, as long as I do it the way I'm supposed to. It has just been hard to see this topic come up a few times and not see it corrected. There are several people on that site that do seem to know what they're talking about and always promote NCHFP, and they are usually the ones who correct misconceptions, but they have been silent on this topic time and time again. I wish the harvest forum was as active as it used to be because the information here is so good.
gardengalrn6
8 years ago
Yes, there are more than a few people here that absolutely know what they are talking about and will give the very safest advice as they know it, even if it might seem an unpopular view. I'm not one, LOL. Usually, if someone posts an "unsafe" recipe, someone will pipe up that it is not a safe way to go. I've learned through the years who I can trust and I gauge that by comparing their advice to what I research via the Ball's Blue Book or NCHFP. There are some very good people here, some really knowledgeable, some very experienced. Lori
pqtex
Original Author
8 years ago
Yes, I feel that way, too, Lori. Harvest Forum isn't as active as it used to be and I miss the frequency of new topics and new posts. I thought (for a while) that I'd found a facebook group that was as grounded in safe canning as I'd found garden web harvest to be. I learned so much here when I was first beginning and was lucky enough to find a "smart and safe" group right off the bat. so I never had to unlearn bad habits...just keep learning! I've been canning over 10 years now, and feel quite competent. I can't explain things the way some of the others can. The facebook group is very active and I was heartened to find that they state upfront that they promote only safe methods and recommend guidelines from NCHFP, although they acknowledge that some members are worldwide with different outlook on canning procedures. They also state that they don't tolerate repeated posts of "we've always done it this way and no one died yet." I figured out pretty quick that there were several knowledgeable posters. who I began to trust, much like several here on Harvest. I even learned a couple of new things from them. On the other hand, I guess with a membership as large as it is, some things get through, or the really knowledgeable folks run out of energy to catch or correct all errors.

The first time I saw someone post about filling cold jars, using cold liquid, and putting in a cold canner, I was so surprised that no one corrected them. I saw people agreeing with them, and stating it would take longer for the canner to boil or come up to pressure, but no one said anything about it being wrong. I let it go several times, thinking the experts would speak up, and then finally I couldn't stand it any longer. I made a quiet, non-confrontational comment, not telling them it was wrong, just stated to please follow the instructions of hot jars, hot liquid, preheated water in canner, regardless of whether raw or hot pack. Then I posted link to canning instructions for NCHFP. No one jumped on me (yet).

There are a few other specific instances of things not being corrected, and it bothers me. On the other hand, I do see quite a bit of bad information being politely corrected, with references and links to NCHFP. My feeling though, is that if some of the information is bad, and isn't corrected, then I can't trust the site enough to rely on it. I'd rather not visit at all and may end my association there. It's a let down, because there is valuable information there.

Jill in Texas
digdirt2
8 years ago
I do a lot of forums and learned way back in the age of the dinosaurs that you'll never change someone's mind set. :-) Especially the "we've always done it this way and no one died yet" bunch. So the best you can do, for the benefit of other/future readers, is just post a note about the correct alternative (with link if available) and a brief explanation of why when you know the reason. Then hope that the other/future readers are at least inclined to give the alternative some thought and/or investigation. If they choose to ignore it they are the ones who pay the price.

I too wish we were as active on this forum as we used to be and wish I knew why so many past regulars have disappeared or moved on. I honestly can't understand why the forum move alone should have cost us so many participants. But I continue to hope at least some of them will return and things will pick up as we move into this year's canning season.

Dave
pqtex thanked digdirt2
pqtex
Original Author
8 years ago
If it were just an "old" canner doing it , I could accept their attitude and know I couldn't change their mind. I worry about the new ones just getting started and not knowing the difference between good advice and bad advice. I have done exactly what you have said...posted the link, and try to keep the explanation brief and non-confrontational. I never get into arguments with people. I post the right way and move on. I will answer a question if asked, but I don't debate it.

I've tried to be grateful that our forum was rescued by Houzz and old posts saved because those archives are a wonderful resource. I think the format is a little off-putting because we no longer see the list of people responding to the posts and which posts are new to the thread. I have no idea if that is the reason people aren't as active or not. I'm certainly doing my part! LOL!

Cold food, cold canner, need reference to advise NOT to do this

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theforgottenone1013 (SE MI zone 5b/6a)

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