Best wayJody is start a load of laundry but don't add any products, once the clothes are in and the water fills add about 1/8 cup stpp and let it agitate a few seconds, than feel the water it should feel nice and slippery if it isn't add some more and agitate again, once you get the water slippery that's the amount you want to add. Dont be alarmed if it takes more than you thought it would, much depends on the amount of water being used and the water hardness.. the slippery water indicates the stpp conditioned your water and your ready to add detergent....but when you add your detergent I recommend you start with 1/2 the dose you would normally use.

Jody, actually I was taught the measurements are by weight but I doubt most people weigh the products. If you think about it and your not going by weight...one ten pound bag of stpp after mixed with powder detergent gives you 30 pounds. Lol.

It depends on how hard your water is and how much water you use for a wash. A non HE top loader will need much more than a front loader. I have a HE FL, moderately hard water and use 1/2 to 3/4 tbsp of STPP to 2 TBSP of Tide/Persil or 1 TBSP of CS. Most powders have some water softening added (zeolites more likely than not)

I know Charlie's is hit or miss around here, but they do have a nice document addressing it as they don't use any water softening agents, which is part of the reason many don't get the results they expect. TKPP should be very similar to STPP.

http://www.charliesoap.com/images/b2b/fab_sheets/hardwater.pdf

Can anyone shed some light on how STPP and TKKP would be similar?

What I'm getting at is...is this TKKP a complex phosphate so that it holds soils and water ions in suspension and prevents it from settling back on fabrics...or is it just a water softener?

I thought TKPP and STPP were similar in that they are both phosphate based suspend minerals versus precipitating them like zeolites.

Jody, water softener, anti deposit agents..either one of these could be phosphates..like I said p&g no longer lists sodium tripolyphodphates on the package.

Back in the day when phosphates were a part of

detergent phosphate % often were 50% or more, phosphates were cheap and they worked.

I can only tell you what I've learned from whom i consider an expert in this matter about adding STPP to the wash with modern day detergent. ...add the amount it takes to condition the water, and if your premixing 1 part stpp to 2 parts detergent by weight....

The phosphates have to condition the water in order to do the job...some peoples water may be conditioned at 16%, others maybe less and others more..you will have to add your stpp to a tub of water with no other detergents or boosters and find out your sweet spot. I will say its not a one size fits all.

Jody...which old detergent had 8% phosphates??

Mich....see what I mean...you would excell at this.

I am assuming your weighing the products Jody?

Another thing back when we had phosphate laden detergent there was much much less washing soda in the product.

Personally I don't weigh lol...I hate scales haha.

Really Jody best advice I can give you is do the water conditioning test than you will know how much stpp you need to add. I have soft city water it ranges between 0gr/gal to 1. If I'm doing a full load of laundry I need just shy of 1/4 cup of STPP to condition my water. Now you may think that's not very cost effective, but remember I'm adding less detergent. Also if that Ariel has phosphates in it you would be adding more, I suspect it does still have phosphates.P$G made a decision to remove phosphates from all of their detergents in Latin America sometime this year, now they have decided to stop making powdered Ariel in Latin America. .I can't see them reformulating the Ariel just to take it off the market.

Before adding the phosphates why don't you give it a few test runs and see how well it does, than you arnt wasting your stpp and there's the factor that you can add to much to the wash preventing a clean rinse.

Ok, I have been out so I had to catch up on all the responses, lol.

I used a measuring cup to measure both the detergent and the STPP.

On AW I believe it was the FAB detergent that was 8%....I will go back and make sure of that and try to post the link to the message.

Here is the link, it mentions the vintage FAB a few messages from the top.

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?41947

Jody..I don't know how to figure it out when a package says 8.0% phosphous in the form of phosphates ..because that does not mean it the way it sounds...if you go to this laundry rooms FAQ page there's a post about stpp...it explains much. Sudsmaster wrote that and he recommends a mixture of1 part stpp to 2 parts ddetergent by weight. This probably works out to 33% and 8.0% ...whatever Sudsmaster says you can absolutly bank that its accurate..I have done a lot of reading on this subject and Sudsmaster is brilliant in thos field.

But whatever you choose to do...the whole point of using this stuff is to soften the water AND hold soils,and water ions in suspension and prevent it from redepositing on clothing...in order to know how much you need if your adding it seperatly is doing the test, otherwise how will you know if you've added too much or not enough..if it doesn't soften the water than it can't do its job. The test is quite simple and only takes minutes.

In a nutshell I can only say how to do the test and the leading amount of stpp to add to detergent..I don't understand the weight vs volume ...no one can tell you how much to use..even if its premixed you would have to test the waters and see if you've added enough.

I know this is hard to understand Jody, that's why I recommend you do the test .

Oh mama, I just wanted to say I get what you are saying now about the 33% and 8%. I am a little slow on the uptake sometimes, especially when it comes to math...lol. I just can't see spending that much money on adding phospates myself to every single load in that amount, so I will just have to pick and choose. It's a damn shame that phosphates had to be taken out in the first place. Oh well, I got along ok before I became wise to phospates...when I was all innocent and naive and all....

Jody...lets say you mixed 10 pounds of STPP at a cost of 20$ and 20 pounds of Foca at about 18 $..that's 38 pounds of excellent phosphated detergent for 38 bucks, and that much detergent with phosphates is gonna last awhile.....or a large 9 pound box of Tide Mountain Spring 14 $ and just about 5 pounds of stpp at 10$ would give you 15 pounds of super charged TOL detergent for 24 $...and as this is a powerful mix will also last a good while...I know how much you like your phosphates so I'm just showing you the cost ...in the long run it probably won't cost more adding the stpp this way because you would be adding much less product. I'm not trying to sway you from your system here just trying to show you the cost factor. Problem with stpp is too much is a waste of money but too little is also a waste...but of course you should do what works best for you. ..on the other hand Jody, do all of your loads even require phosphates? LOL

No, they don't. I usually only bother with the Ariel on my towels because of the water softening ablilty and whites. I add the STPP to the really dirty work clothes, so you are right, I guess I don't really have to stress over cost too much. I just wish I knew if the Ariel on the shelf now has phosphates already in it. The ingredients list hasn't changed, just the customs sticker is gone.