No, I'm sorry - I'm not prepared to give them a break. It's just wrong. No arguments, no excuses. It's just plain WRONG.

OT...Hi, Martin, are you still in Australia? Did you catch up with Kath?

I'm meeting Martin tomorrow :)

I'm old enough that not only did we recite times tables and do mental arithmetic, we also spelt words out loud as a class.

I am a bit of an all-rounder. I have a science degree with included some maths, I love English and literature, and also have enjoyed the two foreign languages I have studied. I was disappointed to have to give up French at high school, and then not be allowed to take English at uni. Nowadays the students seem to be able to do whatever subjects they like.

Kath, a true Renaissance Woman . . . there should be more of us like you; take a bow!

Over here we still here talk about 'Arts' v 'Science' people. My scientist DH reckons that fellow scientists have a more rounded education as they have studied English, languages, history, geography etc whereas too many people (the artsie folk) claim to have a built-in inability to deal with maths/science (as mentioned above). He also points out, with some justification that this has led to journalists/TV pundits coming up with quasi-science when they discuss medical matters and the popular 'Green Energy' debate, about which almost none of them have a true understanding.

I am guilty of speaking colloquial southern, often, because I want to be understood. e.g. I am guilty of saying "Where's it at ?"

Mary, I'm curious: Why do you say you are "guilty of speaking colloquial southern..."? I know it's a common expression, but, in my opinion, you have done nothing that warrants guilt. You are merely speaking, in your case, your adopted home dialect amongst people who speak in a like manner. Wherever I live or visit I wind up adapting my speech to the ways of the speakers I am with. I've readily picked up that Louisiana may be the formal name of that state, but many of the natives and other residents call it "Luzianna." It's their state and they can call it what they like, and I will affectionately follow suit. :-)

Donna, "fixing to do or go" and "y'all" are wonderfully useful expressions, I think. Long live regionalisms. I love them.

Frieda, years ago the comedian Jeff Foxworthy had a show on TV. In each episode they would have a bit about "speaking Southern." One time the challenge was to use the word European in a sentence, and Jeff said, "European on my boots!" LOL

D

Donna, that's a good one! I liked his use of innuendo that went something like "a bird just flew innuendo."

Vee, 'soft' vs. 'hard' sciences are still argued chez G. My hard scientist husband and his ilk still claim superiority, but some of them will admit that there's some value in soft sciences. :-)

I don't think scientists necessarily have a more rounded education. Some of them do, but others are so concentrated in their specialty that they can barely function outside it. I have ghost written many a paper for inarticulate scientists -- with their input, of course. Some don't know how to express themselves except with jargon.

On the other hand, many 'arty' types don't give a fig about science and prefer to remain know-nothings.

I am fascinated with science and love to read about it. I don't often mention here at RP the science stuff I read because I know it is of limited interest.

In high school the science subjects I took were botany, zoology, chemistry, general Earth science, and physics.

In college I enjoyed every science class I took, including advanced botany and zoology courses, microbiology (I loved identifying the unknowns), comparative anatomy (I had to get over the trauma of dissecting a beautiful orange tabby), organic and inorganic chemistry (loved balancing chemical equations), physical geology, historical geology, meteorology, and several others mostly of a general nature.

I didn't take these courses but I feel like I did because I helped my DH get through them: stratigraphy, mineralogy & crystallography (I was actually better at drawing the structures of crystals than DH was), paleontology, and some that don't readily spring to my mind. Sometimes I feel I should have received a degree alongside DH's. ;-)

Friedag, you absolutely deserved one!

I was very proud that I helped my husband get the State Government job he wanted by assisting him with writing the application letter. I hadn't his intellect, he had a genius IQ but I can write a good expressive letter.

He was fine putting out press releases about other people but was modest about his own achievements. Not a good thing when applying for a job!

What a lovely picture! You both look so well and happy.

Great photo, glad you two were able to meet. Make the most of the sunshine Martin, we have forgotten what it feels like.

It was great to meet Martin after many years (we couldn't remember exactly how many) of swapping opinions on here. It certainly was hot today, but you know that saying about mad dogs........

Vee - yes, for all that it's ridiculously hot over here, I utterly refuse to complain about it - we Brits get so little decent weather, we have to be grateful for what we get, wherever we find it!

I was in Sydney two weeks ago - it just rained and rained.....I felt quite at home :)

I sometimes annoy people by mixing British and American English. My spelling is British but my usage is sometimes American, as was pointed out by a pedant who found it so annoying that I should use British spelling but refer to a handbag as a 'purse', that she/he tried to hijack a discussion thread about camera bags and turn it into a thread about correct usage. Do things like that - mixing dialects (or registers) - get up your noses?

--

I like to think I have a good command of the English language, but sometimes when I read certain British newspapers (especially The Daily Mail) I wonder just how far removed the English I learned is from that actually spoken in Britain.

Netla, I sometimes use the local word to make myself understood but when one finds so many variations, such as with a bathing costume which can be referred to as swimmers, bathers, cossies, bikinis, tankinis and even budgie smugglers for a man, things get very tricky!

Ann, I love "budgie smugglers"! LOL Around here (central FL, USA) they are swimsuits or bathing suits. Unless you are referring to a particular style like tankini or bikini.

Kath and Martin, how hot is it in Adelaide? It's still pretty warm here - mid 80s - though we are currently having pretty low humidity which makes it very comfortable outside. Nice to see you!

Donna

I've been trying to remember when I first heard "tankini." I think it's only been within the past five years or so. The style is the same as what used to be called a "maillot." Tankini has probably taken over because so many people don't know how to pronounce or spell maillot.

Netla, pedants who lecture people about mixing dialects are the worst narrow-minded snoots, in my opinion. They obviously don't live in the real world because there is nothing in language use more natural than borrowing and blending.

Kath and Martin, I enjoyed the photo!

Donna, it was about 103°F here yesterday, but a bit cooler today.

Okay, I'll concede that it's hot there! LOL Stay indoors!

Martin, you look just like you did how ever many years ago it was in London. Kath, good to put a face to your name. It's a nice photo.

Netla, once while reading one of my beloved mysteries, the word color was spelled with a u in a blackmail note. I noticed it long enough to think it was odd to see the British spelling in a U.S. book, missing entirely that it was a vital clue.

So glad to read through this thread. Now I know I am not alone. Nice to see a pic of a couple of you getting together.

I remember falling in love with reading somewhere between the 3rd and 4th grades. Went to math contest several times in junior high and high school. I always kinda wondered about the mental block many folks have about math. Or is this a left versus right side of the brain thing???

Kathy, it is a "hurts my brain" thing. Right and left! Calculators are the best thing since sliced bread was invented IMHO.

Question: What was the best thing before the invention of sliced bread? :-)

Annpan, do you have an answer to your question? 'Cause I don't know. :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Out of curiosity, what subjects/classes were required in your (everyone's) secondary education?

I went to a four-year high school (9th through 12th grades) from 1964-1968. My graduation plan was college preparatory and I had to fulfill these requirements (as I remember them):

4 years of English

3 years of mathematics

3 years of science

3 years of social studies (including a half year each of sociology and government/civics)

2 years of a foreign language

2 years of physical education

Since 28 credits (7 for each year) were needed to graduate, the rest of the classes I took were electives. The vocational track was different, but I can't recall those requirements.

Was this similar to your schooling?

Yes, grammar is getting worse. Part of the cause is the decline of academic standards in education. Part of the blame goes to spellcheck and autocorrect tools. The moronic abbreviations and acronyms of texting have also contributed to the decline. Lastly, the love of reading is being supplanted by movies, TV shows, video games, and internet cat videos.

On the upside, never has there been such a widespread proliferation of information and knowledge as there is right now, and IQs continue to rise. Perhaps failing to color inside the lines is an acceptable trade off as the warehouse of everything yet known continues to expand and accelerate.

Frieda, our UK system was/is SO different from that of the US and these days through constant Govt 'interference' (I don't think politics and education mix) the rate of change just escalates and new so-called initiatives appear every few years.

In my, so long ago day, you could leave school at 15 and get a full-time job. You probably wouldn't have taken any exams, but then not everyone is cutout for the academic life.

Back then (50's 60's 70's) public exams were known as the General Certificate of Education at O (ordinary) level followed by A (advanced) level. Usually taken in separate subjects from the age of 16.

If a student (used to be called pupil back then) passed so many O levels (perhaps 6-8?) followed a couple of years later by 2-3 A levels he stood some chance of getting into college or university. To get to a prestigious uni eg Oxford/Cambridge, Latin was required, or to study medicine etc you needed more science based subjects with high grades (still the case today)

During the 70's the 'leaving age' was raised to 16 (probably gone up since?) and gradually a greater range of subject could be taken at 'exam level' eg the dreaded social sciences, various 'humanities', drama, probably Morris dancing and other worthy forms of self-expression . . . ;-(

The Govt (of all political persuasions) try to encourage more and more kids to go to university . . . keeps the unemployment figures down . . . until they enter the 'real world' and find a degree in film-studies or sociology leaves then with nothing better than a job shelf-stacking at the local super market. Is this an issue where you live?

How would you describe an 'elective' class? In my day you were told what classes you would take until 'A' level studies.

I should add that in the early 60's when I left school, university places were few and far between especially for girls. Only the brightest female 'blue-stocking' types got in (or even applied). During the late 60's and beyond many more uni's were built. Some have gone on to have excellent reputations (York, Warwick etc) others are very much 'also-rans'.

There was an 'ad' in our local paper recently congratulating a family-member on her 'degree' in hair-care Later an apology appeared saying they meant she had received a certificate!

Frieda, I had 5 years of high school. I started to write my subjects and had to go and find my report cards to check up. It was a long time ago, after all :)

1st year: English, Maths, Science, Geography, Social Studies, French, Home Science (boys did woodwork and metalwork), Art, Music and Physical Education.

2nd year: English, Maths, Science, Geography, French, Art, Home Science, PE

3rd year: English, Maths, Science, Geography, French, Art, Home Science, PE

4th year (had external exams, that is, competing against all students in the state)

English, Maths 1, Maths 2, Physics, Chemistry, French and one elective and not examined subject - I chose Typing, which has proved very helpful.

5th year (Matriculation external exams) English, Maths 1, Maths 2, Physics and Chemistry.

At the end of 1st year we were streamed into general, technical and 'we don't expect you to stay at school' classes. There was no choice of subjects until 4th year, but English was compulsory, plus a mix of science/maths and arts subjects. Fifth year had no compulsory subjects, but again you had to have at least one subject from each camp.

Frieda...I passed the "aged 11 plus" exam so got into a Grammar School in 1948. They had been changed from fee paying schools just before then. My parents had to agree to keep me in school until I was 16 to take the "O" level that Vee mentions, in 1953.

Girls who went to the Secondary School could leave aged 15 and went into jobs like shop assistants and hairdressing etc.

We had lessons in English (language and literature) French, a choice of Latin or German if you were good at French after the first year, history , geography, mathematics, sciences, Domestic Science (cookery) physical education in the gym and outdoor sports, (hockey, netball, rounders and tennis) and Greek dancing. We could be in the school play after school if we were chosen for acting ability from the English literature class.

I think that was the lot but I may have left something out.

After the "O' level exams were over, some went on to take the "A" level, some went to secretarial school. I opted to work in a library although an aunt offered me the fees to take a two year course training to do cookery demonstrations.

I took the money instead and later used it when I went to Australia!

Kath, thanks for reminding me from your list, we had music too, which was singing in chorus. I have a dreadful voice so stood between the sopranos and contraltos which meant I could take either part depending on my range that day!

Again, the subjects I studied were much like those Ann and Kath described, social studies hadn't been invented and was known as history and geography. Games/PE included gym, netball and lacrosse rather than hockey. French or German and sometimes Spanish were the languages offered.

Ann how did you avoid needlework?! Made much of at a school run by nuns and as it was RC, doctrine lessons every day . . . the 'non Catholics' ie a varied group from Muslims to Buddhist to Baptists had 'special' classes by nuns who spent the time pointing out the errors of our ways. I whiled it awaylooking out of the window or drawing in my rough book while the clever 'A' streamers caught up with their homework or asked the nuns challenging questions.

"We'll have less impertinence from you, young lady. How will you find Salvation with that attitude?"

Were were 'streamed' after the first year . . . a top/A stream and two parallel 'B' classes. Approx 90 - 100 pupils per year.

There was also a very useful (job-wise) secretarial class in the top years with shorthand/typing/book keeping and an extra language. Many girls went on to good jobs in 'The City' of London.

Out of school activities were choir or orchestra practice, sports against other schools . . . and I remember doing some pottery for a while. Music lessons (piano, violin, clarinet etc) were 'extras' and had to be paid for.

School meals (lunch) also had to be paid for . . . but not a great amount. As a 'boarder', of course all my meals were covered by school fees, except for eggs, fruit and jam, considered to be luxuries provided from home!

Wow! There is so much detail in your posts that I don't quite know how to correlate them. Thanks to all! Kath, it tickles me that you still have your report cards handy enough that you can refer to them.

Vee, these are the electives I chose:

Physics -- to give me an extra year of science

Trigonometry -- an extra year

French -- an extra year on top of the two I had already taken

German -- I took this because I thought it would be easy since I grew up among German speakers. Wrong! It gave me fits.

Band -- I took four years of this (marching band during football season; orchestra, stage band, and brass ensemble during the rest of the year)

Most of the other electives were half-year (1 semester) classes, such as:

Home economics -- fundamentals of food preparation, nutrition, garment construction, home & family living, child development

Shorthand -- 3 semesters (1.5 years) which I took because I knew I would need it in those years before pocket tape recorders, since I already had aspirations to be a reporter.

Journalism/Photography -- taken together

Hmm, what else? Oh yes, my single art class that I put off until my senior (12th grade) year. I knew I was talentless and was so apprehensive that I went to my teacher and admitted to her that I was hopeless. She told me: "That's nonsense." She didn't believe that anyone completely lacked artistic ability. She was such a good teacher that I absolutely had a ball learning perspective, etc. I even won a prize for a fire prevention poster I designed and my design for the student handbook cover was used the next year.

I took tons of extracurricular activities for which I received extra credits.

I don't feel that I had a bad education in high school. I do feel that I never had enough time to take every subject that I wanted. That's why when I got to college and university that I felt like the kid in the candy store; I wanted to take everything!

Vee, we did sewing as part of the Domestic Science lessons. We had a project every year. I remember the first year was a white cotton apron which we wore when we started cooking. It was all cut to the same size pattern with hilarious results as some pupils were quite tiny for their age. I remember making a dirndl skirt too.

I forgot that we also had Art classes. I actually had one of my efforts entered for a competition. A great shock to everyone that I produced a good painting as I was normally terrible. We had coloured powder in sectioned Buntins, which was mixed with water to make the paints. Only the ones with mothers who baked realised what they were.

In our last lesson before we left school someone asked why they were called that. Great gusts of laughter when it was pointed out that the useful items were actually tins for cooking buns or muffins as they are now called.

Wow, you all have good memories! I took college-placement classes in HS, and I remember a lot of them, but I sure don't remember the number of required credits and such. I know I took the bare minimum of science classes! And in HS I had a couple years of algebra and geometry. I didn't get trig and calculus till college.

I also managed to skate through 12 years of public school and 4 of college without taking a foreign language. :) I had a couple of singing classes in college that they counted as foreign language.

I also got through all that school without any civics courses. And I vaguely remember having some kind of home-ec class (in HS I guess) where we sewed a skirt.

Donna

I forget to mention Speech. This half-year class was probably the single most-hated requirement. Absences on days that speeches were to be delivered would leave fewer than ten speech-givers with only a sparse student audience and teachers to listen to us. Some of the participants would have such fits of nerves that they couldn't keep their voices from quavering. I think speech class was dropped as a requirement about ten years after I graduated from high school, probably because it made too many students uncomfortable.

Debate class was another of my electives. I also joined the Debate Club team that met and practiced after school.

I graduated from a high school in upstate New York in 1972, so I went through the Regents exams. Math & science were electives after 8th grade, but everyone who wanted a regents diploma was expected to take them.

English literature 4 years. Basically no grammar in high school (I was so disappointed that I didn't get the sentence diagramming lessons that my sister 3 years before me did - it looked like so much fun). I learned most of my grammar in junior high, or from the foreign language classes. One 4-yr comprehensive Regents exam at the end of our senior year.

Social Studies 3 years, a combination of history & civics. Another single comprehensive regents exam, but given after our junior year. I was part of an experimental class that combined history, geography, art & music in an overview of western civilization in my sophomore year. A wonderful class, but short on facts.

Math - i took all 4 years, with regents exams for geometry, trig, and algebra, with a non-regents class in my senior year in calculus, solid geometry & spherical trig. I still remember the wonderful AH-HA moment when the teacher's explanation of a limit finally made sense to me. Then the following year I got to teach it myself during the day when teachers turned their classes over to a student - I explained the circle as a limit to the n-sided polygon and what a fantastic feeling to look at the light in the faces of the other kids.

French and Spanish were offered in 3 year courses, with a comprehensive regents at the end; Latin for some reason took the regents after 2 years. I took the french course which ended when I was a junior, so sat in on a French II class during my senior year, where I read Camus during lessons, and assisted the teacher in the conversational exercises.

Science classes were like the math classes - one year electives with a regents after each one: geology, biology, chemistry and physics, taken in that order. I decided I wanted to take the physics course as a junior, because I thought it more interesting than chemistry, and got permission to take them out of the usual sequence. When a friend heard that, she joined me in class.

There were the business classes, home ec (yuck! how happy I was to drop home ec the year I was transferred to another class, and got to take art twice instead!), music, art, and shop. We originally had more language classes (Russian and German), but they were dropped before I got into high school. There was a speech class, but I stayed away from that one! PE all 4 years. Lots of after-school activities, including drama club, chorus, sports, etc.

By the time I got to my senior year, I'd taken almost every elective I was interested in, and half my day was 'study hall' - which I spent in either the English Dept office or the art room, working on our literary magazine or art projects. I was one of the 'good little girls' and nobody ever worried when I wasn't where I was supposed to be. :)

My goodness Freida, when did you find time to sleep?

Did your High School have a huge number of students/teachers? It seems from a purely practical p-o-view that to offer so many classes in what we would call 'extras' needed a large and committed staff. I honestly cannot think of any school in the UK that had journalism on its curriculum or where trigonometry was studied as a separate subject. Over here it would form part of the maths course.

How many lessons a week did you get in each subject? Over here it was usual to have a 'double' maths lesson (ie an hour) perhaps 4 days out of 5. The same for English. A language, Science, History and Geog a couple of hours a week. Games took up an afternoon (boys schools often played daily). HE (cookery), needlework, Art, Music, Gym perhaps one hour . . .. I think RE is still compulsory for at least one session a week.

The day was divided into blocks with 2 in the morning ie from 9 .30 ish to a 15 min break at 11 then lessons til 12/12.30 lunch break of an hour, then two more 'blocks' 'til 3.30 (obviously this differed slightly place to place).

All English/Welsh schools are required to hold an Assembly with prayers, reading of notices etc. usually held at the start of each day. We don't do flag-related stuff . . perhaps we should do more.

Nor did 'speech' play any part in our school . . . except that 'talking' was heavily frowned on not just in class but in corridors, in line, waiting for meals . . . etc! I do remember a debating society and the one time a joint meeting was arranged with the near-by boys school and all the boys and girls sat on separate sides of the room until the teacher suggested everyone with birthdays Jan to June sit on the right and July to Dec on the left. Everyone got up and changed places so it was just as before . . . English girls and boys were much shyer in those days. ;-(

Vee, I know you asked Frieda, but my school sounds similar - our days ran 8am - 230pm, with 8 45min 'periods', one of which was lunch. All subjects were held daily. After-school activities were usually 1-2hours at most.

Our school day started at 8:50 with a 10 minute class period for notices to be read out, then eight 40 minutes lessons. We had three before a 20 minute recess, two more until lunch, then three after lunch. In the final year we had to take 5 subjects but the time table had six 'slots' so we had a free lesson every day for extra study.

I think that after more than 60 years since I left school the reason I still have such vivid memories is because it was such an important time of my life.

Even getting to school was an adventure. Instead of a five minute walk to the Secondary School, I had to walk to catch a bus or ride my bicycle to the train station then walk from a stop several towns along the line to the school.

All of the education, books and fares were free but my parents had to borrow the money to buy my school uniform until I got an annual grant. This helped with top up clothes as I grew taller, along with money I earned from minding children and clearing tables at a local cafe at weekends and during the school summer holidays from age 12 onwards. The reason why I stopped going to school when I was 1 6, was by then, I had had enough of my busy dual life and just wanted to go to work and have some pleasure time!

However, the experience of all the lessons and training I was given has always influenced me, which is why I can still recall those times so well.

Vee, my high school had about a thousand students and probably close to one hundred teachers (not counting support staff). Using English as an example, there was at least one teacher for every grade level, thus I had a different English teacher every year. One year I actually had two: the one who taught grammar and composition during the fall term, and the one who taught literature in the spring term. Btw, that sequence -- grammar in the fall, literature in the spring -- held through all of my four years of English.

Donnamira, I loved diagramming sentences! I wonder why it was discontinued, as it seemed to me to be a wonderful way to learn the structure of English. I can relate to your experience of understanding a limit in trig! Those breakthroughs were always worth much more than the price of tuition, I think.

You had a lot more exams than I remember taking. I don't think we had anything like your Regents exam. We took the Iowa Achievement Test every year from about third grade; but as it was supposed to be an assessment of how much we had already learned, we were not drilled on what we could expect to appear in it. And I never studied specifically for it -- I don't think anyone did. Neither did I cram, as so many students later have done, to take the ACT and/or SAT. I took both, very casually.

Vee, I don't recall my schedules of classes, but I think we had each subject daily much the same as Kath and Donnamira did. I didn't have "blocks" before college. High school began at 8 a.m. and let out at 3.45 p.m. We had seven class periods and lunch between those times.

We were discouraged from talking, as well, especially during class. I'm always surprised to hear the din in modern classrooms.

Speaking of din. The Asian students at the University library where I worked complained of the noise from students chat which distracted them.

I didn't think the place was very noisy until I visited a University library in Singapore. You could hardly hear anyone breathing there!

Ann, maybe this helps to explain why the new Eastern nations are forging ahead at the expense of us in the 'Old World'.

Bad Grammar Allergy:

(credited to http://whatallergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/AllergicToBadGrammar_550.jpg)

Yesterday there was a traffic sign out reminding folks about school starting this week. It said "School starts soon" and "Drive safe". Maybe the English teachers can use it as a teaching tool. :)

Donna

The weather page in our local newspaper yesterday reported, "I seen the storm coming." Oh, dear.

When my daughter came home from school with a note for me to sign, granting her permission to be on an "incursion", I telephoned the headmaster to ask who they were planning to invade.

Colleen, that's hysterical! What was his answer?

Apparently, when someone comes into the school to provide an activity for the students, as opposed to the students going out of the school for an activity, that's an "incursion" versus an "excursion". I suppose that possibly technically that's correct, but "incursion" has overtones of hostility that "excursion" doesn't.

And surely it's the visitors who are on an incursion?

Oh, I see... :) Here in the US the term "staycation" has become popular for taking time off work but not going on a trip. (It's on my list of terms I really can't stand, right after "selfie" and "hashtag" LOL.)

Donna