The myth of contagious blackspot strains versus bacteria and virus
I start this thread to save rose nurseries the headache of people buying roses that come down blackspots or mildew, then demand money back, or suing the nursery for infecting their garden with a particular BS strain or mildew.
I ordered from High Country Roses. Fantastic nursery, very honest & wonderful customer service, highly recommend. They wrapped their roses damp newspaper to keep moist. But the shipping took many days, by the time I got it, Lilian Austin had blackspots all over. I planted in my soil, and zero blackspots for the next 3 years. BUT if someone believe in the myth of contagious blackspots strains, they could had demanded money back from High Country Roses, or suing the nursery for infecting their garden with mildew or BS.
Just think, if someone want to create a disease-resistant rose, does that person have to travel to every city across the nation to test for every single blackspots strains? That includes the many cities in vast Texas, plus Hawaii and Alaska. That doesn't make sense! Blackspots is a fungus, and it mutates constantly, there's NO fixed strain of blackspots, since they are always mutating. Plus you don't infect your shower curtain with mold by another shower curtain. Mold or fungus grows with the right condition: shade, dampness, neutral to acidic pH, or lack of anti-fungal nutrients in soil.
Below is Golden Celebration, clean for 3 years with horse manure, until I moved it to a poor-drainage spot, it broke out in blackspot. So I dug it up to fix the drainage, still grew new leaves with BS. Last month I raise the pH by dumping alkaline top soil, plus watered with sulfate of potash (for potassium). It grew 100% clean leaves. Pic. taken this Oct:
Comments (17)
strawchicago z5
8 years agoI moved the info. from "Wise quotes" thread to here:
One of the myths, preached in Rose forum: a rose can give another rose blackspots or mildew. I took both microbiology and biochemistry in college. If the condition is right, fungal disease will occur, REGARDLESS of what's next to it.
What are the right conditions for fungal diseases? Soil research showed that fungal growth decreases with increasing pH. Above pH 8, very little fungal growth ... that's the logic for baking soda (pH above 8). As the pH decreases, more fungi, and less bacteria. As the pH decreases, the beneficial bacteria that fixes nitrogen also decreases (less leaves), and the disease-fungi also increases (more mildew and blackspots). Here's an excerpt from below link:
" The growth-based measurements revealed a fivefold decrease in bacterial growth and a fivefold increase in fungal growth with lower pH. This resulted in an approximately 30-fold increase in fungal importance, as indicated by the fungal growth/bacterial growth ratio, from pH 8.3 to pH 4.5."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19151179
When I was at Lowe's checking out their 50% rose sale in mid-Sept, I saw Fire Opal, Hero, mingled with other Easy Elegance roses ... they were sardine-packed outside. Some were infested with mildew, while the ones next to it weren't. In the same way, my Tchaikovsky touches Pat Austin, but Pat Austin is 100% clean, while Tchaikovsky came down with mildew, in less than 3 hours of sun. Years ago I tasted Pat Austin' leaves, it was the yummiest among the bunch, mild and alkaline like lettuce leaves. I also tasted Knock-out leaves, it was bitter like baking soda, too alkaline. I will taste Tchaikosky's leaves today, to compare with Pat Austin.
There's the myth of blackspots strain. Someone told me "you don't have blackspots in your garden, because you don't have a particular strains." Non-sense !! My Comte de Chambord was a BS-fest, with giant-black-spots (the size of a dime) .. that's when it was in an acidic potting soil (pH 6.5), plus poor-drainage, plus tons of rain (pH 5.6). When I moved it my alkaline soil (pH near 8), it was 100% clean for the entire year.
Cass in CA with hundreds of roses reported that diseases occur due to failure of the root-system. She noted that when she put cuttings into the soil, they immediately develop black spots. I tested that, I put cutting of Duchess of Rohan into the potting soil of Perle d' Or. That cutting broke out immediately in blackspots, dropped all leaves ... while Perle d' Or stayed 100% clean, see below pic. taken Oct. 8. If the myth of contagious blackspots strain is correct, Perle d'Or would catch it, and come down with BS, BUT IT DID NOT. See the leafless cutting of Duchess de Rohan on lowest right margin of Perle d'Or:
strawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoRelated Discussions
blackspot truly fatal
Comments (38)Thank you, trospero, for that very interesting info., I appreciate your knowledge. It's only my hunch, so I need your experience on this, trospero, regarding my own-root roses: 1) Meilland in France, a more alkaline soil with hotter summer, bred roses vigorous as own-root in alkaline soil. David Austin, in more acidic soil and cooler climate, bred roses more vigorous as own-roots in such environment. Nahema with Heritage as the parent is wimpy here, only 5 blooms per year. I dug up Nahema and the root is very small. In contrast, Meilland Liv Tyler produces tons of blooms and the bush is 3 times larger in my hot summer near 100 degrees. 2) Kim Rupert bred "Annie L. McDowell" by choosing the best seedling of Renae x Renae in his alkaline soil and water. I bought Annie as a tiny band, now its rootball is huge, at least 2 gallons when I transferred from pot to soil yesterday. Compare that to Nahema with Austin Heritage as pollen parent, bought as gallon-size, but its root shrank here. My conclusion: buy own-roots where it's bred in a climate and soil similar to one's own....See MoreTypes of calcium for best bloom formation
Comments (22)Found a fantastic link which explains the many forms of calcium: http://waltsorganic.com/ag-lime-dolomite-gypsum-oyster-shellwhat-kind-of-calcium-do-you-need/ Agricultural Lime: Calcium carbonate – CaC03 Pure calcium carbonate is used to help prevent the spread of various diseases, such as powdery mildew, black spot, and blossom end rot ... Adding Ag. Lime to your soil will also raise your PH making it more alkaline. Dolomite: Dolomitic Lime contains calcium carbonate, bringing benefits similar to Ag Lime, while also providing magnesium which is important for plants’ utilization of nitrogen, phosphorus and sulfur. Having an excess of magnesium in your soil can cause a break down in soil structure, resulting in hard compact soils. Gypsum: Calcium sulfate, or Sulfate of Lime – CaS042H20, due to its sulfur content Gypsum does not raise the soil PH like lime, and there is some debate as to whether it lowers soil PH. Gypsum helps liberate potash for plant use. Gypsum can also help break up compact and clay filled soils by correcting excess amounts of magnesium in your soil. Oyster Shell Flour: in addition to a large percentage of calcium carbonate, Oyster shell flour contains about 1-% phosphoric acid, which makes oyster shell flour a source of both lime (calcium) and phosphorus. Oyster shell will also slightly raise your soils PH over time. **** From Straw: The horse stable nearby me uses oyster shell lime to deodorize their horse manure. I tested the horse manure pH, and it's over 8. When I applied to my roses, alkaline horse manure (high in calcium & magnesium & potassium & phosphorus) REVERSED blackspots on roses by pumping out new & clean leaves and neutralize the acidity of rain water. Shell lime is best for alkaline clay which needs more phosphorus, plus it raises the pH slowly. Agricultural lime is best to sprinkle on leaves of roses, it's calcium carbonate which is a fungicide, it kills fungus by raising the pH. Dolomitic lime is best for acidic sandy / loamy soil. It will raise the pH, plus supply calcium and magnesium. Magnesium is the "glue" that holds soil together, and is less available in sandy soil. Gypsum also release calcium fast, but doesn't result in pale roses due to 17% sulfur in gypsum. My preference for my alkaline clay: I use shell lime (in horse manure) for heavy-bloomers BEFORE RAIN, and gypsum for wimpy own-roots BEFORE RAIN. Below site sells organic stuff cheap with 5,000 items to choose: 50 lb. of alfalfa pellets for $25, alfalfa seeds, clover seeds (for nitrogen), $9 for 50 lb. of gypsum, $10 for 50lb. of oyster shell lime, $9 for 50 lb. of dolomite lime (best for sandy or loamy soil, since magnesium is the "glue" that retains nutrients). http://www.groworganic.com/search#q=alfalfa hay&p=1 If someone has sandy or loamy soil, the acidic rain will beat up on roots, cause leaching of calcium & magnesium & potassium ... thus leaves become thinner and break out in fungal diseases. I successfully reversed blackspots & mildew on roses just by topping with ALKALINE & HIGH MINERALS & SLOW-RELEASED mulch, such as alfalfa hay (less acidic than alfalfa meal), my dolomitic clay, or horse manure (with oyster shell for calcium & phosphorus for my alkaline clay). Below are some pics. of own-root Golden Celebration. The first one was 2012 pic. in the front of my house, late August 2012: Second pic. below is the base of Golden Celebration, which is 100% clean with horse manure, pic. taken late October 2012 after the 1st frost: Third pic. below is Golden Celebration bloom with horse manure. Golden Cel. got too big for my front walk-way .. when I moved it, there's at least 1 foot of fluffy horse manure, and the root was huge:...See MoreYoung children should be vaccinated against dangerous diseases
Comments (44)Nothing in life is black and white, but we see what we experience, I suppose, and after seeing my children struggle, that's all the proof I need. My job is to protect my child, not to worry about herd immunity. FWIW, my children are rarely ill. My friends who fully vaccinate without even reading the inserts or let their children have shots while ill? Sick monthly. Our bodies are made to handle a lot more than we let them, and we're killing those natural responses. In the end, I just hope that people can respect others' choices and realize that we each have to put our own children first. What I saw happen to my children trumps any 'scientific' proof because no one can yet say what causes autism. (And I do wonder, too, what about meds during pregnancy...ultrasounds, etc. Great point!) If you want to read more, read about the national vaccine court awards. They've continually given away money to families with medical proof that vaccines have critically injuried their children. One of my friends lost her child to seizures immediately following a vaccine...a vaccine whose insert said that a side-effect is seizures. Another friend's child is brain damaged and in diapers in her 20's. No matter what the good side of vaccines may be, the fact is that there are side-effects, and we have a right to protect our child from being one. They are not acceptable losses to protect herd immunity. I hope it never happens to anyone here, but if it did, it sure would make you think differently, I guarantee. Most people survive measles, but autism, brain damage and death...they're pretty permanent. Have a good day....See MoreGot My Flu Shot
Comments (35)"Influenza may cause bad cold symptoms. But in the United States alone,36,000 people die and more than 200,000 are hospitalized each year because of the flu. MYTH: You can't spread the flu if you're feeling well. Actually, 20% to 30% of people carrying the influenza virus have no symptoms." 10 Flu Myths If you’ve ever had the flu, you know how sick you can be. Chances are good that some of the advice friends and family gave you about avoiding or dealing with the flu was wrong. There seems to be no shortage of misinformation and bad advice when it comes to dealing with the flu. Here are 10 common myths about the flu. MYTH: You can catch the flu from the vaccine. The vaccine is made from an inactivated virus that can’t transmit infection. So people who get sick after receiving a flu vaccination were going to get sick anyway. It takes a week or two to get protection from the vaccine. But people assume that because they got sick after getting the vaccine, the shot caused their illness. MYTH: Healthy people don’t need to be vaccinated. It’s true that the flu vaccination is routinely recommended for people who have a chronic illness. But anyone — even healthy folks — can benefit from being vaccinated. Current guidelines suggest that children ages 6 months to 19 years old, pregnant women, and anyone over age 49 be vaccinated each year. In addition, the flu shot is recommended for healthy people who might spread the virus to others who are particularly susceptible. For this reason, health care workers are routinely advised to get the flu vaccination to protect their patients. MYTH: Getting the flu vaccination is all you need to do to protect yourself from the flu. There are a number of steps you can take to protect yourself during flu season besides vaccination. Avoid contact with people who have the flu, wash your hands frequently, and consider taking anti-viral medications if you were exposed to the flu before being vaccinated. MYTH: The flu is just a bad cold. Influenza may cause bad cold symptoms. But in the United States alone, 36,000 people die and more than 200,000 are hospitalized each year because of the flu. MYTH: You can’t spread the flu if you’re feeling well. Actually, 20% to 30% of people carrying the influenza virus have no symptoms. MYTH: You don’t need to get a flu shot every year. The influenza virus changes (mutates) each year. So getting vaccinated each year is important to make sure you have immunity to the strains most likely to cause an outbreak. MYTH: You can catch the flu from going out in cold weather without a coat, with wet hair or by sitting near a drafty window. The only way to catch the flu is by being exposed to the influenza virus. Flu season coincides with the cold weather. So people often associate the flu with a cold, drafty environment. But, they are not related. MYTH: Feed a cold, starve a fever. If you have the flu (or a cold) and a fever, you need more fluids. There’s little reason to increase or decrease how much you eat. Though you may have no appetite, “starving” yourself will accomplish little. And poor nutrition will not help you get better. MYTH: Chicken soup will speed your recovery from the flu. Hot liquids can soothe a sore throat and provide much needed fluids. But chicken soup has no other specific qualities that can help fight the flu. MYTH: If you have a high fever with the flu that lasts more than a day or two, antibiotics may be necessary. Antibiotics work well against bacteria, but they aren’t effective for a viral infection like the flu. Then again, some people develop a bacterial infection as a complication of the flu, so it may be a good idea to get checked out if your symptoms drag on or worsen. The flu is a good example of how medical myths can get in the way of good medical care. When it’s flu season, take the necessary steps to stay healthy. That includes separating fact from myth. http://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/10-flu-myths...See Morestrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years ago
prairie_northrose (3b north of Calgary AB, Canada)
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoThank you, prairie_north, for fantastic info. Re-instated your info: " Those isolates with the same host infection pattern are designated as a race ... These studies and others have uncovered genetic resistance within rose species and cultivars that is race-specific."
My understanding is there are different patterns to BS-infection, and the rose-breeders try to get a variety of rose-species with a variety of resistance to different patterns of infection. Then they incorporate those resistant-rose-species into their breeding line. I observe different patterns of BS-infection in roses in my garden: some have tiny dots of blackspots, but Comte de Chambord has big-size blackspots, some BS cause loss of all leaves, some affect only lowest leaves, some BS occurs after heavy rain, while some BS occur during drought. So a "race" has to do with different ways that blackspots affect a rose.
I appreciate the info. " The optimum pH for growth was 4.8–5.4, and no growth occurred at pH 7.0." I tasted a few leaves this morning. Kordes FlowerCarpet has glossy foliage, tastes really yummy (sweet like my water pH at 8.6), I could had easily eaten a few more. I tasted red-Knock-out's leaves, very bitter, but no sour taste. Bitterness does help to suppress fungal growth, so does sweetness (alkalinity). I also tasted the leaf of Tchaikovsky (has mildew) and it was sour, had to spit out.
The soil pH and composition does change the taste of the leaves. Early spring I bought a clump of Thai Basil at Menards. I split the clump into 2. One planted in alkaline clay soil near pH 8, and the other planted in clay mixed with acidic cracked corn (pH 4), plus cow-manure high in phosphorus ... this bear many flowers, but with black-spotted & pale leaves. I tasted one leaf, it was sour & bitter, see below, pic. taken today, Oct. 12:
The clump in alkaline clay (pH 8) is much taller with healthy leaves, very little flowers. The leaves are thick, sweet, and delicious. We eat that weekly. See pic below, taken today Oct. 12:
strawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoThe below pic. shows that mildew is NOT contagious, and develop only on tissue which is acidic. This is my 4th year of having Pat Austin (glossy leaves), it never mildew on me, even as tiny-own-root. But I planted Tchaikovsky, a French Meilland rose next to it. Those 2 roses intertwine each other while reaching out for sun (less than 3 hours) in late fall. Below pic. shows my hand holding Pat Austin (100% clean), while Tchaikovsky with bloom on the left has mildew leaves (see whitish leaves on left). I taste Tchaikosky's leaf, it's sour. I taste Pat's leaves, it's sweet & yummy like my alkaline-tap-water (pH 8.6). Pic. taken today, Oct. 12
rosecanadian
8 years ago
User
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agostrawchicago z5
8 years agolast modified: 8 years agoSam: Wow! Great insight. Thank you. I admire Jim for his honesty & photography skills, and admire you for your insights & smarts.
You are right that fungi are everywhere, and I agree with "The purpose of fungus is to decay plant material .. A healthy plant should be able to keep the fungus out of the cells of the leaves." We can't get away from fungi, it's everywhere. My kid soaked green-mung-beans in distilled water, put that in a plastic bowl, cover with lid, and put in a dark-pantry. After 24 hours she drained off the water, then put the wet beansprout back (covered). We forgot for a few days, so the sprout grew whitish molds inside the bowl. She planted it anyway, and those moldy sprouts grew healthier & bigger plants than the no-mold-sprouts.
I make pickled cabbage often. I have to make the water salty, plus use a plastic-zip-loc (filled with water) to push the cabbage UNDER the salty-water (plus a cap so there's no air inside) ... otherwise they grow greenish mold on top. Other people put a big rock to push the cabbage under, then cover the top. If air gets in, then the veggies rot, and grow bad mold.
A few conditions to grow fungi such as mold, blackspots, and mildew: organic matter, water, shade, right pH, and air. From the soil research, it's known that fungi decrease at pH above 8 (while bacteria increases). But BOTH are suppressed at pH below 4.5
http://aem.asm.org/content/75/6/1589
What makes leaves healthy so fungi can't grow? We need to supply roses with enough calcium and potassium, both strengthen cell tissue and make leaves thicker. Both JessJennings and I witnessed blackspots STOPPED, plus new 100% clean growth when we use sulfate of potash and gypsum together. Nitrogen should also be supplied while roses are blooming to provide energy for new leaves.
Keeping the surface of soil dry and alkaline helps, so fungi can't germinate on the wet ground, and be splashed up to leaves. Dr. Henry Kuska was the one who shed light to my sufate-of-potash solution. Henry suggested that potassium is depleted AFTER blooming, that's why roses break out black spots right after a heavy blooming. I agree, when roses are stingy with zero blooms ... they are healthier just like my Thai Basil with very little blooms (less potassium used-up for flowers.).
For the 2 years that I topped alkaline horse manure (has lime, with pH 8), on top of lots of alfalfa-meal (pH 5.8, NPK 2-1-2) ... my roses were clean since the pH on top was alkaline, plus a constant slow-released of nutrients. Picture of Francis Blaise rose below, taken late Oct. 2012, when the tomato-branches wilted from frost. When roses are hungry, be it lack of water or nutrients, they break out in fungal diseases. And when roses have too much, be it poor-drainage & too wet, or excess of nutrients (such as phosphorus that zap out anti-fungal agent zinc) ... they also break out in blackspots.
Below is my neighbor's 100% clean hybrid tea (grafted on Dr. Huey), picture taken on a hot summer day with humidity over 80%. She mulched with big-size pea-gravel, and fertilize with MG-soluble (plenty of potassium & nitrogen, and the high phosphorus got zap out by the pea-gravel's high pH).
strawchicago z5
8 years ago
prairie_northrose (3b north of Calgary AB, Canada)