Lecture you? No, what you do with your money and how you feel about it is not up for debate.

With that said, I personally do not lend money to my children. Keyword, lend. If my adult son/s would need money for something unexpected or in a pinch, I consider giving them the money. No strings attached. They have never asked unless really necessary and in the rare cases they have asked my line of giving instead of loaning was that paying back would likely just set them back in other areas of their finances. A couple of times they have mentioned this or that 'emergency' and what it cost and I've pulled my checkbook out and handed them a check to cover it. If they reject the check with a 'no, Mom', I just say stick it in the kids (their children) account.

But not saying that's the way adult children should be treated, it's just my way in my home at my doings.

In your case, the money was a loan and there was an understanding of a 30 day payback. Thirty days is up, past up. It would not be out of line for DH to mention to his son that they had an understanding. Maybe it's as simple as SS is waiting for his tax return and will indeed pay back, but if so, SS owes it to dad and you to tell you that because it was not the agreement.

I'd also think hard before I'd loan again to this same SS since he did not not only pay it back under the agreement, he did not acknowledge he broke the agreement.

The only time I was actually asked for a loan by my oldest was when his now exwife booted him out and took all their account money. I paid to move him back to my state, she did not even leave him any of his last paycheck he had just electronic deposited direct, he had $50 in his pocket and a door locked in his face and she had cancelled their credit card.

I do expect responsiblity from my kids, from 18 my kids had to pay rent and work if still living at home. My idea of giving my children money is because I want to, not because they ask or are irresponsible.

Wow! What insight you have! Your comments are well said. Actually, I did tell DH that I thought that it would be better to give the money as a gift rather than a loan. However, we feel that if a gift of $1000 goes to child #1, then the other 5 adult kids are entitled to something similar. I am sure that each of them could come up with a legitimate case for needing the money too. When you look at it that way, it becomes ridiculous.

I think it's just a matter of DH always being there for his kids, and they continue to except it. It's one thing when they are minors living at home, or college kids (he incidentally paid the entire college bill for a 3 kids too).

I think it's a case of his kids feeling a sense of entitlement. I learned that SS29 "borrowed" $10,000 from his grandfather about 6 years ago. Hasn't paid back a dime!

I agree with being careful about lending. But I also question whether "mature" married couples should really be pooling money. I can't imagine if I were to ever get married, that I would want someone telling whether I could or couldnt give money to my DD.

Justmetoo, I just wanted to say that I was very inspired by your philosophy on lending vs. giving - I believe I might just have to steal it and use it as my own from now on!!! Can you give a little insight as to mom23step23's statement about giving similar amounts to other children as well? I agree with her that it would become ridiculous to dish out the same amount 5 times over so how would you go about soothing any "that's not fair" issues that may arise (with both the other children and yourself as I think I would feel guilty that I was favoring one over the others)?

re: loaning money.

Unless you are a bank or willing to end the friendship/relationship, do not LOAN money. If the person borrowing could get a real loan, they would. Banks won't take a risk on them, that tells you right there how great a risk YOU are taking. In our family, if you can't afford to give it and never see it again, then the answer is no. If it's paid back, great... but money is not worth destroying a family relationship.

My sister's husband came to me last summer and wanted me to co-sign a loan so he could buy my sister an ATV for her birthday. They are losing their house and filed bankruptcy... and still feel the NEED to buy each other big expensive gifts for birthday's and Christmas! They live WAY beyond their means and are irresponsible with money, so it also depends on the reason the money is needed and the asking person's history... and that is the rationale used in our family to why one person may receive a 'gift' when needed and others may not. I would never dream of asking anyone in my family for a 'loan' unless I absolutely needed it for necessities, like food or utilities.

I agree with kkny that if you want to give your child, your money, it's your business. However, when it affects the household (joint bills) then it becomes a joint decision. In other words, if I can meet my household obligations with my husband and I have extra money, it's mine to do with as I please... same with him. But, if I take money that needs to go toward our joint bills to give to my child, then it directly affects him because now he must figure out how to make up the shortfall. That's the difference.

mom23,

You were right that the loan was a bad idea to begin with. As everyone else has said, don't loan more money than you can afford to give meaning, don't loan money to friends and family. Give cash gifts if you must. And keep those limited.

DH only gives money to SS30. And mostly, he makes SS30 work for it doing oddjobs. He still coughs up occasional handouts but never any kind of a "loan." He has been burned like everyone else with family loans.

When I was 23 I borrowed $2000 from my mother to move, pay my car note etc. Like most family borrowers, I did not pay her back on time. Unlike most family lenders though, my mother made me sign a note! Nothing formal, just the amount, the due date and our signatures. After I didn't pay the money back on time, every time I visited my parents house talking about a vacation, going out, buying furniture, she pulled out that note! I finally paid her back and NEVER BORROWED money from my parents or any other family members again. She made me sign the note as an act of accountability, not because she couldn't afford the $2000. She was teaching me a lesson!!
When I've done family loans I make them sign notes as I was made to sign. Nothing formal, something I just type up on Word. They don't like it EVER but they have mostly paid me back. I think having it in writing makes the difference. I've heard all kinds of negative feedback about it, makes them feel I don't trust them (I don't!), am I going to sue them, been called Ebenezer Scrooge and so on. Now I just don't do it anymore at all. There are almost always bad feelings about it on both sides plus you are lucky if you ever see the money again. The closest family member with the largest loan still hasn't paid me back in over 6 years. I haven't forgiven the debt, it's too large, but I don't bring it up because of the hostility it creates.

Your DH should defnitely talk to SS29. And, as everyone else here has said, whether you get the $1000 back or not, never loan him any more. Maybe you can ask that SS29 work it off in some way?

does SS29 work? if he does not work, is irresponsible and is lazy just sucking money of you then why lending him more? if he is hard working just got himself into a predicament then a different story.

Yes SS29 works. He received his Phd in Genetic Science from Stanford last spring.

Talked with DH about my concerns. He feels that loaning $1000 to a kid in a predicament is OK as long as they keep their end of the bargain and pay it back per the agreement. He has chosen NOT to bring the subject up just yet to SS29. Rather, he wants to sit back and observe how SS29 handles the situation. He won't let it go too much longer before he confronts him though. He says that it is important to give a kid a chance to pass, or fail on their own.

I remember now that you wrote in the past about your SKs' greediness. It seems the issue of money in regards to SKs keeps coming up. As I recall it was common for you to buy very expensive gifts, lavish vacations or give them large amounts of money.

SS does not sound like irresponsible loser, getting PhD is a lot of work and money plus he has 3 children. I think I'd rather not buy expensive gifts yet give them money when they are in need. Whose idea was it to lend him money rather than just help him? Yours or DH's?

Frankly in comparison to many SKs and BKs I read about, this SS is very accomplished, not troubled, not a drop out, educated, has a decent family, right?

Honestly if I don't have money I would not give, if I have money though i would just give it to my DD if it is for necessities. There is nothing more important than family, it is not like he is a neighbour. i would just let your DH deal with it and kiss that money good bye. It is a family, not worth to spoil the relationship over $1000. There is more to life than money.

Now if money is very important thing for you personally, then you need to decide to never lend and never help. Well doesn't sound good, does it..

Your comments were offensive to me. I am not the one on trial here. Yes, SS29 is educated. I don't see how that has anything to do with the situation. He knew well in advance that he would be needing the money, and could have saved up for it. Or, he could have told his wife that she wouldn't be able to fly home to visit her mother so often, or they could have bought a few less electronic gadgets for their home or their kids. Why save up when he can just go to Dad? It is a matter of priorities.

We give each of our kids $100 cash for Christmas, the grandkids gift budget is $35 each. For birthdays, we give $50 cash, for anniversaries we give $50 cash (enough for a modest dinner for two out). Every person comes to this with a different point of view, but I have not come across many in America that would say the above is "very expensive gifts or large amounts of money". My gift budget is far, far less that what my coworkers spend for their kids. I think my coworkers feel sorry for our kids because they get so little. My girlfriend told me tonight that she spends $500 for each kid for Christmas. It's all relative.

DH and I are the ones who work for our money. And I am told that I seem to have issues with money. I have been very generous with DHs kids, and I have learned the hard way, that no matter how much I give, it's is not quite enough. I would not say that we give expensive gifts to them, with the exception of the one time gift of $1000 for a second honeymoon. That was my idea, I wanted to give $600, and somehow the figure crept up to $1000 (that was NOT my idea). After not receiving a "Thank You" for the $1000, I decided that the gift was not appreciated by them. I was new in the marriage at that time, and we had the money at the time. SS29 was having marriage trouble, and we thought sending them on a trip was an investment in their marriage. I gave them the gift of money because I cared about them and their marriage. If I was a greedy money person, then I would hoard my money to myself, but I have been generous with them. Too generous. Both DH and I realized that we'd made a mistake by giving the $1000 for the trip. We vowed that we would never do that again. We wanted SS29 to look at the honeymoon gift as a "Wow!!!" once in a lifetime gift. It must not have "wowed" him too much, since he hasn't mentioned it to me and the trip was two years ago. Instead, it left him with the impression that we are moneybags, and when he plans poorly, that we can bail him out.

My sister was married to a doctor for 13 years. He was obviously very educated. He was also very financially irresponsible. They lived was beyond their means, having $50,000 in credit card debt for just "stuff". He couldn't even get a second mortgage on their house because his credit was so poor.

How's this for yet another example of how DHs kids expect money things from him. SD24 left home to live with her Aunt prior to the start of college in the fall (back when she was 19 years old). She and DH signed the paper work for her fall semister at the University, he paid her full tuition and room& board. She had him sign the papers for a full year in the dormitory, $8000, knowing that she had no intention of living the dorm, but that she was secretly living with her boyfriend in the Aunt's basement. A month into the semester, SD24 told DH that it was "too noisy" in the dorm, and that she'd have to move back into her Aunt's basement. (Really she was there all along). DH got stuck with the $8000 of nonrefundable dorm fees! So, SS24 signed the papers for the dorm, knowing that DH would have to pay, but that she knew that she had absolutely no intentions to move into the dorm. She lied to him about where the boyfriend lived. Then she later rages at him for neglecting her and depriving her financially!

SS29 had to fly from Cali to stand up in my DS23s wedding. SS29 phoned us to ask us to buy his airflight. Wow! DS23 lived in Cali too, should we pay his airflight also? How does that work? Pay for the son standing up in the wedding to fly in from Cali, but the groom pays his own flight!? We told DS23 that SS29 wanted us to pay his flight and he just laughed! He thought it was a joke. We didn't pay for either flight, they both are big boys now.

Had to vent! It feels better. I am just sick of his kids thinking that he can always be there financially for them. My kids ages 23, 21, and 18 all out on their own, and haven't asked for a dime since they move out. And DHs kids bleed him every chance they get.

I guess I don't think any of those examples are so unusual or way out there, I think what the Daughter did is kind of crappy but I don't know the exact sitch.

I think the wedding example is odd too, usually if it is a destination wedding or members of the wedding party have to travel..the bride/groom pay for travel costs. At least that's how it works where I grew up. If you want to ask someone to have a wedding duty and it involves that person traveling, you pay so that there is no problem with the person being asked having to say no to your request or feeling bad because they don't have the money to travel etc. I guess since your DS didn't pay for his travel, that's why he asked his Dad for the money.

I don't think times are the same as even 10 years ago. Financially it is much more difficult for young people starting out. It's good you and DH get on the same page in regards to money, but it reads more me that it is less about the actual money but principle in regards to your children vs. his.

They do sound too demanding, but it does not seem that unusual. SO's DD is 29 and makes a very good money yet she always wants dad to pay her tickets, vacations etc, she continued asking for it even after she got married. He finally had to say no, cannot do it anymore.

Now saying all that I agree with nivea that it seems to be about how good are your kids and how bad are his. I somewhat shocked to hear that your 18-year-old is on his/her own. How is that possible, isn't she/he in high school? college? something? 18 seems a bit extreme. Even if your kids opt not to attend college, do they go to some form of training. I know one is in army, but what about others?

I have never heard of paying for travel expenses for someone who is standing up in a wedding, even for destination weddings. I work with lots of young women in their mid 20s who have destination weddings, and everyone attending the wedding pays their own travel expenses. SS29 stands up in probably 1 wedding per year, I am sure that he has NEVER had anyone pay his travel expenses. Maybe it happens in some circles, but I have never heard of it. Both son and step son flew 1200 miles for the wedding. I have heard my skids say that they have to shell out anywhere from $300 to $500 to stand up in weddings (formal wear, travel, overnight lodging, gift for couple). I am totally convinced that SS29 had absolutely no expectation that his SB would be paying his air flight. SS29 pays for his airflights for all of the other weddings that he stands up in, why would this one be different?

Both DS23 and DS18 are Marines. DS18 left home in October, so he hasn't been gone long. He went on a foreign exchange trip to Germany last year, which we told him he would have to pay $1500 to attend. The money had to be paid to the tour company up front. DS18 gave us his paychecks from his high school job, and paid back every penny on time per our agreement.

I can see where you can say that it seems like how bad his kids are vs how good mine are. I just don't have any "bleeding money from Mom" stories from my kids, because there are not any. My kids are not angels, but they were raised to not expect handouts, and they don't.

From my earlier posts you might remember that DH lost his house, had to split his retirement account with his ex, had to pay $18,000 in attorney's fees, and got stuck with the college loans for the kids, and has to pay approx $2000 monthly in alimony. That is what he walked away from the divorce with. It was a tough nut to swallow. But then his adult kids keep bleeding him for more. And when a special day rolls around for them to honor him, like Father's Day, he gets gifts from my kids, NOT HIS KIDS!

He is a gentle, quiet man, and has cried several times over his kids behavior and treatment of him, he has expressed disappointment in his kids regarding these issues.

I agree that paying travel expenses is unheard of. nobody can afford that.

as about kids are on their own, they are on their own because they are in a military. not everyone is joining the army. most college bound kids do need parental support. I agree that SKs sound unreasonably demanding but it is unfair to compare them to your kids who are in the army. It is unfair to compare people who choose completely different path. one is not better than the other. Most 18 year olds are not on their own and are not expected to be.

His kids sound resentful about something. maybe Dh needs to investigate that, they might be angry about something. Might not be about money. Every family is different. that's how his family is rolling, and that's how yours. maybe he is trying to compensate for something else by giving them money. I have a sense there is more to the story...How and why did he get divorced? If all of his kids treating him this way there is something in that story that needs to be investigated.

lol and I have never heard of anyone not paying the wedding parties travel expenses, how funny. This board always gives me new perspectives. It would totally shock me if someone asked me to be their bridesmaid and btw, the wedding is in costa rica lol.

FD, I'm not talking about all guests travel expenses. Just the wedding party - bridesmaids/groomsmen.

mom, I see what you're saying and it IS a tough nut to swallow. But it's his beef and it's with Mom/the divorce. Just curious, was Mom a stay at home mom?

Please, my boys are not in the army. They are Marines! DS18 lives in a barrack with other men his age. And don't for a minute think that he cannot bleed me for money because he is in the Marines. Many young Marines buy new cars or motorcycles right after Boot Camp is over. They are given a big check, and it wears on them to spend it. They tend to overspend, and ask parents to bail them out. You should see the pawn shops right next to the Marine Corp base at Camp Pendleton!

SS23, almost SS24 has been married for 2 years, lives in an apartment with his wife near the base @ Camp Pendleton. He has monthly bills, rent, insurance, car payments, utilities, food, and everything else just like you and I. The two Skids I mentioned are Marines also. They know the Marine drill. Altogether we have 4 Marines. DS23 has been on 3 deployments overseas, and is getting ready to deploy to Afghanastan in late summer. These young people who deploy typically sell everything that they own (that won't fit into one car) when they deploy. Typically the wives move back in with the parents during the deployment. Then when their Marines return, they start over buying furniture, lamps, tables, beds, etc again. We've seen it happen 3 times already! They try to buy from yard sales. Actually, there are so many Marines buying and selling their stuff before/after deployments, that they have created an online cyber sale for Marines called "Pendleton Yard Sales". So, please don't imply that my son doesn't bleed money because the military takes care of him. He sets up his own household, and manages his own money.

The difference is in how they were raised.

Why DHs divorce? His Ex had Borderline Personality Disorder, and a pretty bad case of it. He stayed until his youngest was out of high school, because he knew that he wouldn't get sole custody, and he didn't want to subject his kids to the Ex when he wasn't there (which is what would have happened had he divorced, they would have had shared custody). The ex was abusive to DH as well as abusive to her kids. Her kids have nothing to do with her. They haven't seen her in almost 6 years! No contact. People with BPD expect alot from those around them. They are takers. They take, and give nothing back. BPDs are not thankful when you give, only wishing that you would give more. Skids were raised in that environment. It would be almost impossible for them to walk away from that without some damage themselves. We have suggested therapy, and even offered to pay for therapy for them, but they are not interested.

I have never heard of anyone paying for travel expenses for anyone other than themselves in regards to weddings, including asking someone to stand up in your wedding in Mexico or somewhere else. With the young gals that I work with, the people standing in their weddings pay their own way to the resort! Sounds crazy to me too!

Yes, the Ex was a stay at home Mom. She had a teaching degree, but was fired from schools for physically abusing school kids! She then got jobs at local retail stores, and lost over 6 jobs for shoplifting!

She left a terrible example for her kids.

nivea I know you are talking about wedding party, it still seems too much but i agree it is impossible to expect people to attend destination weddings nowadays. SO paid for younger DD's ticket to be a maid of honor at older DD's destination wedding because otherwise she would not be able to attend. Many people did not attend due to the cost of tickets. I think it is OK not to attend due to expenses. Sounds like SS attended nonetheless.

All of them in the marines?
I was right there was more to the story, there always is. kids are angry maybe because dad let them stay in abusive environment and now they believe he owes them. sad. I think that if she abused school chidren he had a chance of full custody, but it is all in the past. It sounds like they did OK though, it could be worse. I think 1000 is the least of the problems here. There is always more to the story.

I think it is unfair to compare children though especially if his were brought up in unhealthy environment.

DHs two Marines were Marine Reservists (signed up for 6 years of one weekend a month duty), they were never deployed, spent no time overseas. My two are active duty Marines.

About the abuse, funny thing is that both DH and I divorced for the same reasons. I too was married to a man with Borderline Personality Disorder, and my children grew up in an atmosphere of abuse. Why didn't I leave sooner? The ironic thing about abuse, it that you cannot see it when you are in the middle of it. It took a large event to get me to see it. When I saw it, I kicked him out immediately.

Comparing kids is not necessary, I agree. But comparing each to themselves, or comparing them to what is healthy behavior, or common courtesy is just fine. Overall, they are good kids, but you're right, they feel that Dad owes them, and they bleed everything that they can get out of him.

mom23,

It definitely sounds like your adult SKs still expect handouts and FD is probably right, in a way it may be to pay their father back for the broken family life. The SD college dorm thing was lousy but you might chalk that one up to immaturity combined with just really wanting to shack up with her BF without telling Dad first. I didn't remember or know all of the background when I posted about making SS29 sign a note although that worked for my mother to wean me off of my parents financially.

To Nivea's point, on paying for things like wedding travel especially destination wedding travel, I have been to three destination weddings, two in Jamaica including my own, and one in Mexico. We had 15 guests at my wedding in Jamiaca and I did not pay for any of the the travel expenses just the wedding expenses there for everyone like any other wedding. I've been in 3 out of town weddings meaning I had to travel out of town to participate plus more just to attend. Out of my own pocket. I'm sure that people help out family members who they really want to attend with travel and for whom money is tight. But travel costs being expected, nope. But, hey, SS29 had to try right? Those who don't ask don't get!

im fairly certain that there is a saying that says something to the extent of you dont loan money to family you give it

I just loaned my sis 500.00 and i really hope i get it back... but if I dont I dont ... trials and tribulations of family life

Reminds of that movie ... a bronx tale calogero chasing that kid for $15 .... and sonny tells him ... look at it this way cost you $15 to get rid of him

:)

Some get away cheaper than others.

Finally, got a check in the mail for $1000!!! Came just before 4 months. Better late than never!

" The ironic thing about abuse, it that you cannot see it when you are in the middle of it. It took a large event to get me to see it. When I saw it, I kicked him out immediately."

Been there. Done that. Amazing in retrospect, isn't it?

I lent a girlfriend from high school $300 about 10 years ago. She needed it for her mortgage. I think it was my entire check for the week. I never saw a penny back. And I learned, don't ever lend. Give, if you can afford it. But never lend.

mom23,
"Finally, got a check in the mail for $1000!!! Came just before 4 months. Better late than never!"

Congratulations and don't ever lend again. I'm sure your SS29 is patting himself on the back for paying what he owed to you although he paid late. Why do people pat themselves on the back when they pay back family but not American Express.

Cash the check, say great but not a big deal and don't do it again! Your SS probabably feels like he has built up some credit, knock that idea down fast.

4 months is not that long.

well let's face it American Express is not family. when you are sick, American Express won't bring you a cup of tea, family members might.

i don't understand any of this..

"i don't understand any of this.."

I'm guessing you don't have any deadbeat family members...

sweeby I was under impression that SS is not dead beat, he has PhD, has a job, takes care of his family and just needed some money to move in to a new place, he borrowed the money and paid it back, yes he took 4 months. I don't consider it deadbeat.

Finedreams, from the OP:
>>Adult SS29 asked his Dad on Dec 15 if we could lend him $1000 for "just 30 days" so he could put up his security deposit on a house that he was moving his family of 5 into. Saying that he would get back his other security deposit (from the house that they were currently in) in 30 days, and then he would be able to pay us back. ..... It is [now] Feb 19. We have not heard anything [from] SS29.Four months is considerably longer than the 30 days promised. Even if SS did not get his security deposit back as promised, the very least he could have done was to let the people who lent him money and spent two days helping him to move and paint his new home, know what was happening, why the repayment would be late, and when he expected to be able to repay.

I agree, SS had to explain why he cannot repay on time, maybe he did tell his dad, who knows. Or maybe he is being passive-aggressive. Like i said before there is more to the story, they don't buy dad father day's gifts and other stuff...

"well let's face it American Express is not family. when you are sick, American Express won't bring you a cup of tea, family members might. " FD

And that's my point in mentioning American Express and other creditors. They usually get paid before family!