You do have a lot of "mass" concentrated in that area. The other thing is the "step" that I see at the ceiling line: deep pantry/cabinet above coffee maker/end of wall/deep above fridge/slightly shallower above oven (or is that the software) The cabinets kinda zigzag at the ceiling line depth-wise...I think this could be tweaked very easily to line things up.

palimpsest, thanks for the input. Yes, I probably can get those cabinets lined up better in the software. Certainly the fridge and ovens would be the same line. I fiddle forever with that stuff and it's still never perfect!

Do you think it would be worth it to give up the stacked ovens and put them both under the counter as two singles? Maybe one under the cooktop and one next to the fridge? That would eliminate one of the "talls". I don't mind bending to get to the oven (I'm plenty short enough) but I'd give up a lot of undercounter storage.

I like 'walls of tall,' but the problem I have with this particular plan is that the oven is so close to the corner, that it will create a corner cave there. If the oven and fridge could move over about a foot or more, that corner would be so much more usable. My sister had her fridge located similarly in her kitchen and it was one of the main things she wanted to change in her remodel.

Also, you say you use the backyard a lot for entertaining, but have the door to it very blocked by the island. It's pretty close to the door and if anyone is seated, it'll be difficult to get through, especially with food. Even without anyone seated, if you're carrying food outside to the barbecue or something, the island is a pretty big barrier.

I'd be curious to see what the cabinet rep/KD comes up with, since I don't see a lot of options for relocating those tall appliances.

Are your walls built/must stay as drawn?

I agree that the island is inconveniently positioned, and I'm not at all fond of the Wall of Tall, either. Have you considered something like this? This would give you much better flow through the kitchen and in and out of the back yard.

I thought about switching the oven and fridge, so you wouldn't have the oven opening into that passage way, but I really prefer the fridge where it is--easily accessible from kitchen, dining room, family room, and back yard, all without getting in the cook's way. If you use your ovens a lot, then this placement might be problematic.

This type of plan also allows for a much deeper island, if you'd like.

How important is it to you to have two ovens? Would you consider switching to a range? If you need two ovens, would one of the ranges that have two smaller ovens work for you? Maybe it makes sense to sacrifice one oven to get more pantry and refrigerator space.

Is that dead space behind the refrigerator? It would be great if you could use that space to recess a full-depth refrigerator.

Agree with Rhome that the island is a barrier. Maybe you plan to use it just for entertaining; I think it is too far from the range to be used as a prep space and it would be inconvenient to serve there. Maybe you could have a bar height eating area behind the main sink, and put bar stools there.

If you eliminate the island maybe you could make the U bigger.

Sorry, these are a few random thoughts, I wish I could give you more of a solution!

You do have a bit of a monolith there, and your island in front of the door is going to be pretty frustrating in very short order. I think the range idea is a good one. Can you get by with a range and some smaller convection or speed ovens built in under counters ? If you moved your seating over to where the peninsula is now and used some cabinets with glass on both sides for the base, you'd get a nice open space.

I like holligator's plan a lot. It gives you a huge pantry which makes up for any lost storage switching the U to an L, leaves the frig convenient to the yard and eliminates the barrier island. The only change I'd make is sliding the prep sink to the left so it would be closer to the frig for salad prep and outside snackers.

Each space and homeowner has there own ideal but if you just want to modify your first layout I can't see the prep sink on an island that far away from the main cooking area being that useful (as has already been pointed out). I'd move it to the coffee bar (perhaps a good spot for a different sort of bar later in the day) and save myself some money as you are already running water near there for the fridge. To me the wall of tall is a no, I would prefer the counterspace (I appreciate the advantages of wall mounted ovens but I would go with a slide in range and one under counter oven as suggested). Also it looks like you have gone to a lot of trouble to open up the space I think you are weighing it down with too much cabinetry. I would take the upper off of the wall that is parallel to the pony wall and just have the cabinet on you cooktop wall run into the corner. I would think about some open shelves or glass cabinets if you eliminate the wall of tall. Good luck!

Wow. Go to sleep. Wake up to a whole new kitchen! You guys are awesome!

I will really have to take a look at this again.

To holligator - thank you very much for taking the time to come up with a different layout. I actually looked at something very similar before. I LOVE the walk-in pantry idea - what awesome storage that would be!

Re: the island. I hear everyone about blocking the door. The door is actually a picture window now and we use the exit from the FR to the screen porch, so maybe I'm underestimating how much the new door would be used. The island is more a replacement for our breakfast table than a prep area. I did envision it as a secondary work triangle between the fridge, prep sink and micro drawer - kids could make a snack without getting into my workspace.

Re: other ideas: I am willing to do 2 UC ovens instead of a double stack. I can't seat on the peninsula side to have enough walkway behind furniture in the family room.

Below is a birdseye view of the whole floor plan with holligators layout. I'm concerned the DR will 'feel' to far from the kitchen. We will be eating in the DR everyday.

Same view of my original layout that might help everyone.

Hmmm...I just got an email from KD saying he "nailed it" and can't wait to show me tomorrow. Trying to pique my interest I guess...(OR maybe he's on GW and just say holligators idea :)

Thanks a bunch everyone

Caryscott I hadn't seen your post when I was following up on the others and wanted to thank you for your input. You had several ideas I've thought of before - I'll revisit them.

To me the dining room seems 'closer' to the kitchen, in terms of getting food and dishes back and forth, and maybe visually, too, than with the original plan with the island blocking off the path. I don't think the island in the first plan looks like an integral part of the kitchen.

Rhome, thanks for your input. I realized as I was reading back over this I didn't answer your questions.

The only interior walls that aren't being built new are those around the stairwell. That said, I have calculated how much space I need in the new piano/front room to make it usuable, and likewise with the family room, so there's not anymore room for the kitchen than in my original layout.

And yes, I've contemplated the corner cave A LOT. My mom has one too and I don't like it. One solution was to do cabinets down to counter height on the 'tall wall' then elminate the wall cabinet to left of cooktop which would open that corner up. As to your idea, if I scoot everthing down to make the corner longer, I loose the coffee bar at the end and I would have the 'tall' fridge on the corner which makes it seem even bigger to me.

so many options...just not the perfect one yet!

As one who has a huge pantry, I'll add that you will love having one as shown in holligator's plan (great plan). I can't imagine not having mine. One of my oldest son's friends has stood in it and said, "I LOVE your pantry!" (keep in mind he's one of those bottomless teenagers).

Also, something I haven't seen mentioned but advice I've been given by appliance salespeople and various magazines and such is that it's not a good idea to put ovens next to the refrigerator. All that heat next to something trying to stay cold should be avoided when possible. That said, I see this done all the time.

One other thing to keep in mind is that when your 3 kids have their friends over, that passel of kids will look for the shortest route outside after grabbing snacks - that would be your new door from the kitchen. Your plan's island may be more of a barrier than you foresee.

I think Holligator's plan is great, too. It doesn't look like it on her plan, but in your rendering, it looks like you still could have room for the coffee area at the end by the fridge. If the coffee area spanned that whole end, it would shorten the pantry and you'd have to open it on the dining room side, which might be better since it seems pretty narrow to walk into.

I like holligator's suggestion. I like the way the island relates to the family room for causal seating rather than just being an obstacle in every path.

If you couldn't move the island for some reason, I would either break up the talls or place a tall wall at the back where your cooktop was drawn. That way you can have balance on the sides. I have a wall of talls and like it -- but mine is a backdrop to everything else and the sides seem balanced. Putting a wall of talls on one side of a U doesn't allow you to have balance unless you close off the other side -- which doesn't sound very appealing.

I just saw this post and I can see you've already moved on from the "wall of tall," but I wanted to show you I have it, I have my ovens near the corner and for me it works out so well!

my walls of tall, as seen from the family room -- to the right of the passageway is fridge, ovens, baking corner, and on the left are freezer and pantry:

a better view of just the fridge (to the left of the ovens), ovens and my beloved baking corner

I don't mind the 'wall of tall', but I do like holligator's island layout a lot more. It seems much more functional and useful, and I agree the island in the original layout will serve as an annoying barrier in short order.

Oh, and the pantry! Love that idea. I changed my original layout to include one and even the contractors keep commenting on how useful the space will be. Thanks, bmorepanic!

rmkitchen, thanks for sharing. I've seen yours before and think it's beautiful, and never would have thought it looks 'off balance'. Maybe because you've got more tall stuff going on further down and your more dramatic hood.

We'll see what the KD comes up with tomorrow on mine. He's never commented on the island - so I don't know if he'll change that. I'll keep ya posted.

I'll be curious to see what your KD has come up with, and feel free to send me his fee if his plan looks suspiciously like mine. ;)

Back to your original issue for a moment, though. The problem that I see with your tall wall isn't the tall items themselves. There are several other issues that bother me with that setup.

You have no nearby landing space for your fridge. If you have to unload several ingredients at once, you'll either be juggling or running back and forth to set things down.

The cave in the corner is an issue. At first glance, rmkitchen's beautiful finished product makes me think "hmmm, maybe it could work for jujusmama, too." But then I look a little closer and notice that she has much more space between her oven and corner. Even more importantly, though, is that her kitchen is white on white. Her gorgeous marble and white cabs eliminate the problem of a dark corner. Assuming the cabs in your mock-ups are similar in color to what you'll have, you won't have the benefit of the bright whiteness to lift that corner.

Just a thought...you've got all that room there - what about combining the dining and cooking areas ??

Here is a link that might be useful:

I like holligator's plan as well, but here's my wall of tall just in case you needed another visual....

Do you have the third designer's plan yet? I'm very curious at this point.

FWIW, the plan Holligator offers is tried and very true, and simplifies and opens everything up nicely, but if you still prefer the layout you came up with for yourself, I think it would work very well with a little tweaking. Even as it clutters the passage a bit, it also offers yet another place for your family's active living to take place.

BTW, I LOVE that you guys use your dining room as it deserves to be. Whatever you do, its quality as a space you are drawn into for constant use has to be preserved. Big priority.

As the kitchens posted show, the wall of tall can be designed to look good. The mass would also be appropriately positioned at the core of the house, where designers of open modern homes tend to place it to ground and balance them visually.

That said, I personally would do whatever I had to do to lose the feeling of mass (not just the dead corner) looming at my shoulder as I worked at the stove. As someone pointed out, keeping a nice open feel is worth working for.

Regarding openness, since you have lots of space in the kitchen, could you shorten it by 6" or so and give that space to the passage? I also didn't see it mentioned before, but since the breakfast bar isn't being used to block kitchen mess from view I don't see a benefit to its raised height. Unless you're one of those tall families that make me feel like evolution passed me by?

Okay...here we go

Below is my rendition of the KD/cabinet sales rep revised plan. I guess the 'wall of tall' wasn't his concern, as much as using the dead space? He set the fridge back and made a 'message center/coffee bar' next to the double oven. It's not really working for me. Any thoughts?

So, I've been thinking A LOT about everyone's comments, and here's where I am at (at least for today).

I do think the island the way it is will work for what I'm looking for, a work/snack area for kids, a place for buffet food, etc. 90% of the time adults are going to use the family room exit to the yard, because it goes to the screen porch and that's where we eat and visit. Yes, kids will probably 'bee-line' it across the deck, but they can use slowing down anyway :)

My main concern over holligator's version, (and I've looked previously for a long time at something like that) is that I wanted to keep the kitchen from feeling like it is in the middle of the family room. I want more seperation of the two spaces.

So, I'm back to my plan & the wall of tall.

One thing I'm thinking of to lighten it up on the end, is to use flip-up cabinets over the coffee bar, in a stainless/textured glass type finish so there's no wood cabinetry there.

2) I still considering 2 UC ovens. I'm okay with them functionally, but am concerned about the amount of UC storage I will lose (33" I give up for the 2nd oven, plus the 33" of tray storage), although I'd gain counter and wall storageand I'd solve the 'corner cave' problem. However, 2 singles cost about $1500 more than a double in the KA models I've been looking at!

So that's where I'm at, at least for tonight. I really appreciate everyone's help. It was a little harder than I thought it would be to take the critiques, but I'm comforting myself in the fact that I know everyone means well, so thank you!

rmkitchens wall of tall is well balanced and 1nersesians is monolithic. Jujusmamas' wall of tall kind of undulates around a corner, so it does't really work for me yet.

Rosie, I forgot to respond to your comments/questions in my last post - I wanted to 1st thank you for supporting my eating in the dining room plan, I get some people who kind of smirk at me when I say we'll eat in there everyday. I guess they think it's stuffy or old-fashined - but I dont!

And I wanted you to know the island is all counter-height. The ponywall behind the sink will be bar height but there is no sitting there.

thanks again

Where will you put 2 UC ovens? One, I assume where the oven is, but what about the other?

Only to help you be sure this is the plan for you:

1) If the island is used as a buffet, where will the people be taking their food after loading their plates? You might want to put some thought into traffic pattern.

2) Also, while that's being used as a buffet, or while people are seated at the island, will you need to get out to the patio with food for the barbecue or whatever? I understand that there's another exit, but I worry about you navigating the space when you're trying to cook and entertain.

and...

3) If that's where the food and drink are, will people use that other exit or try to come in and out there? Options on paper are fine, but it's what will realistically happen that counts.

Best wishes.

When I look at lnersesian's wonderful "u", it completely belongs within the room it's in. If the family room is next door, the kitchen also belongs in the family room.

When I look at yours, I see the same thing in either plan - but your version intrudes a bit more by having the prep area in the hallway - completely part of the dining room as well as the family room. The little 42" pony wall doesn't provide a visual barrier to anyone over 50" tall.

You could get the same "separation" by raising the seating area in holligator's to bar height. But I really would encourage you not to because of the loss of function of the island top when you need it. I think being part of the family room is a good thing (well ok, teenagers, maybe not).

If you see yourself cooking while facing those windows, you still will be able to see out them most of the time and you will be able to walk out easily, even carrying trays of food.

I can almost guarantee that you won't use the prep island in your plan cause it will be too far away and covered in kids stuff. From looking at the plan, it will be a lot easier just to use the clean up sink because you won't have to move all the stuff back to the cooktop. And it will connect you to the action in the family room.

Now you can arrest me. I'll go peacefully and stop ranting.

Looks to me like in the KD's version the fridge door will bang against the coffee bar.

I think the KD's latest version makes problem worse. The talls now seem to go on forever. Also, by recessing the refrigerator, you make it even farther away from any real landing space. It just seems like it would be a real ordeal to get out more than a couple of ingredients at a time.

I certainly don't want to push my plan on you, but I also don't want you to lose out so dramatically on function in an effort to create a visual separation that I don't think the pony wall accomplishes any better.

I've seen many islands that seem to do a nice job of separating the kitchen from the family room. If you don't like this look, you might want to consider exploring other ways to create that visual separation. You have space for such a large island that adding some architectural accents like columns at each end and, perhaps, an arch of some kind above it would create a real feeling of separateness without sacrificing good kitchen functioning. There are several kitchens in the FKB that have this set up. Perhaps others can name a few. You could even use part of the island that faces the family room for shelving or something else that might look less kitchen-y.

Even if you decide to stick with the U and the pony wall, I really think you should reconsider putting that island where you have it. Others have pointed out the many functional drawbacks. In addition to those, I think it would just look awkward.

The KD's new plan is even worse, and if this is what they call nailing it, I'm worried about this person's ability to designs a good looking, much less a functional space. Be careful.

I don't think you have room to put 2 undercounter ovens and keep the space functioning well. You'd almost be better off doing a 48" range if you really need 2 ovens. You could try combining that idea with the Kd's new fridge placement and see if it works.

I don't want to beat you up about this, but do think about the island placement. It wouldn't be so terrible if you didn't have the exterior door right behind it, but that is a problem. Even if you are okay with it, it strikes me as the kind of thing that buyers who normally don't see functional problems with kitchens would notice and knock a major portion off what they would be willing to pay for your house because they'd plan a major kitchen redo. Dogs would love it though. They would be willing to walk around it for the occasional meal tripped and flipped over it.

Just wondering what you finally ended up with......

If a regular size and small oven will work for you, GE, Maytag, and Electrolux make a range like that. The small oven is small in height but regular size in width and depth. The GE and Maytag small oven is on the top, the Electrolux is on the bottom. The Electrolux is a slide in. Although I'm not interested in convection and I'd prefer the small oven on the top, I'm considering the Electrolux because it is slide in and I love the look of it. I'll use the small oven a lot - roasted vegetables, baked fish, etc., and then I'll have the large oven when I need it.

I don't like that 3rd KD's plan at all - the fridge and coffee counter block each other for one thing.

Ok I will give you my 2 cents although it is probably worth only 1!. I love the walk in pantry, can you still do that with your layout? Also if you are going to put cabinet panels over the fridge, like rmkitchen's that makes the fridge blend better. Then it doesn't look so much like a wall of tall! I agree with caryscott about putting the prep sink over by the coffee bar.

Also, you could extend the pony wall a little and have the counter turn there with seating? Gives you more room by the door and more counter space.

Take it for what it is worth,hope you are able to figure it out.

Oh

Here is a link I found in the FKB that may work.

This is kansaskathy's kitchen She has the DO along that far wall like holligator, but then has a passageway there as well, with the island then turning around from the family room to the doorway area. Might work?

Toodles,

Laura