I would love to have some REAL chinese food cooked well. All we have are the take out places, mostly fast food types. I do get some freshly made hot&sour soup at times, especially when I have a cold. It's very good.
I envy your statement dcarch, "There are simply no words to describe this incredible eating experience". I bet it was incredible! And I can bet you were tired of it after 20 days, totally understandable.
June Lynn

"Posted by chase --- Another who loves authentic Chinese food. We have some wonderful Chinese restaurants in Toronto's Chinatown but you do have to be careful which you choose. --------"
Yes. I have been to Toronto a few times. Very good Chinese food there also.

"Posted by dedtired ----Dcarch, I'd love to try authentic Chinese food because I really don't like what passes for Chinese around here. -------"
Here is a way: Ask your Chinese friend to recommend a few dishes and write them out in Chinese, then go to a Chinese restaurant and ask them to make them for you. Tell them you are allergic to MSG. They will have a lot of respect for you and do the right thing.

"Posted by foodonastump ------ I wonder how NYC's Chinatown restaurants rank in that regard. ------"
Not very good anymore. With the prosperity in China, good chefs make more money returning to China.
"---- to be fair, the "you've never tasted" statement was in reference to method of deep frying, not quality or freshness of meat. With regard to quality though, I think that by now we all know that the term "free range" is a farce unless you've personally seen your chicken out free in the range"
The chickens are not the same as super market chickens. They have very little fat under the skin, smaller in size, the meat have a better texture, not tough, not mushy and a lot more "chickeny" taste. The chickens also have not been frozen.
" And I'd have to familiarize myself with methods of keeping fish alive in a fish bowl before being convinced that they're better than fish killed straight from the wild. "
No Chinese will go to a Chinese restaurant if they do not have a tank to serve live seafood.

" Posted by annie1992---- I have 6 cattle, 14 hens, a couple of horses. ---"
Have you had silkies? They are fun chickens to have.
" there is no resemblance between an egg from the grocery store and one you just reached under a chicken for. "
Get a few quails. Kids love quail eggs.
"dcarch, didn't your friends do any cooking at home? "
No. Not to offend any Chinese member here. I have very few Chinese friends who can cook well.

" Posted by sffog ------- chinese food is regional as far as spicy and hot from the northern provinces or -----s a delicacy,its very fatty,( i gagged even though i did not know what i was eating) in south fresh prawns hopping on the hot grill or roasted goose. rodents, rabbits and snake,were mostly very inland with the nomads who ate whatever they could trap or snakes would be made into a soup anywhere in china, there was a live baby scorpion salad offered and silk worm lavae omlettes in one high end restaurant in the south. no takers from our group.---"
One very interesting aspect with Chinese cooking is not about taste. They eat strange things not because they dont have food to eat. They are very much into medicinal properties of all foods. A house wife makes a meal frequently based on the general health of the family.

"Posted by junelynn ----- I envy your statement dcarch, "There are simply no words to describe this incredible eating experience". I bet it was incredible! And I can bet you were tired of it after 20 days, totally understandable. "
That reminds me; I was in Paris and had the most wonderful French food everyday. The last days, I was dying for some Chinese food. I found a cheap Chop Suey take-out place and had Egg Foo Young. It was good. " I Cant Stand French Food" LOL

dcarch

???????????? LOL!!!

Happy New Year !!!!!
LOU

dcarch, we had a few silkies only as pets, but they aren't good "Michigan farm" kind of birds. They only lay between 50 and 100 eggs per year as opposed to the 250-300 that are laid by my Rhode Island Reds. They are not extremely hardy birds and don't like our cold winter temperatures. My girls spend their winters in an unheated coop and wander about outside in the snow as it suits them, the Silkies require a heated coop or they die from the extreme cold. They are very docile, though, and unique looking, so they make better pets than they do egg producers. I understand that some cultures attribute healthful benefits to eating them.

When Dad was alive, he wanted Rhode Island Reds. Period. We had a couple of Aracunas that laid blue eggs, a couple of Silkies, some bantam breeds, but they weren't the family "flock", they were simply pets.

Dad was also president of the county's Red and Gun Club, so we raised some quails but you have to eat about two dozen of those for breakfast, LOL. We raised pheasants too for several years.

Ten days of restaurant food, though? No matter how good, I'd be so tired of it that I wouldn't want to eat out again for months, I'd have to go straight home, bake bread and have a peanut butter and jelly sandwich!

Annie

I love Chinese foods, many different kinds. When I am home alone for a few days, I find myself eating Chinese 3 meals a day.

Our trip to China 2 years ago was a dream come true for me!

I did find that while some of the food we had there was different from the food we've enjoyed in restaurants in the US, some was more similar than I would have thought. I don't think it's necessary to be snobby or reverse-snobby and claim that differences are entirely due to restaurateur's "dumbing down" their superior authentic cuisine to appeal to our provincial, foolish, or otherwise inferior palates -- often, it's more a matter of local ingredients being different. (If you've tried to cook your own family favorites in a different country to give friends an authentic US meal, you'll know what I mean. I used my regular recipes for things like apple pie, but the apples, flour, and even the water are just a little different. Even a BBQ tasted different; the buns aren't the same.)

So I learned to think of Chinese-American cuisine as sort of a separate cuisine. I like both. It's certainly true that it's well worthwhile to learn about authentic recipes. But "authenticity" in the sense of purist, originalist-only, isn't the last word. There are amazing cuisines that arose in the US that are just as good as their progenitors. Think of NY Jewish deli, Texas chili, Louisiana jambalaya, Chicago pizza, North Carolina barbecue, Miami Cuban sandwiches, San Francisco sushi ... A real mistake to turn your nose up at them for being "inauthentic" to their "home" countries' cuisines!

Another thing I learned on that trip to China was to have a real respect for the southern, Cantonese cuisine. Once Szechwan and Hunan cuisines became available in the US, we and our friends assumed that they were the "real thing," and the Cantonese style we'd grown up with was unsophisticated -- no point eating it anymore, now that we could get the "good stuff." Wrong, wrong, wrong! The reason we were only familiar with Cantonese here was that most all of the earlier Chinese immigrants to the US were from the south; the northerners and westerners came later (and the south and east of China were more open than the west and north to all kind of influences, in both directions). But it seems that in China, the southern cuisine is sort of like what French food is in Europe -- not that Greek, Italian, etc., aren't wonderful, but French is the "haute cuisine." When we got to Hong Kong, we saw how true that is! The more delicate Cantonese dishes -- and the dim sum -- were revelatory. I came home and finally started exploring the southern and eastern sections in my Chinese cookbooks. I still love the hot stuff, but I'm cursing myself for wasting all those years snubbing Cantonese!

Back to Asia (including and all too short stop in HK) in 12 days! Yay!

She cooked truly Japanese food which was much different than anything "Chinese" I've ever had. Simple and delicious and mostly very economical, no heavy sauces.

I've been to China enough times on business that I've lost count and once for 3 weeks on vacation. I've been to Japan a few times too. Because they are in the same region and similar climates, they share some of the same staple ingredients like rice and soy, but they are very different cuisines (like French and Italian cooking share many ingredients but are very different). One example of the difference is their attitude about rice. In Japan rice is viewed as very special and it is relatively expensive. When we weren't seeing a customer, the team there was likely to go to a noodle shop for lunch rather than a rice based place because the latter would be more expensive. At a business meal in Japan, rice is likely to appear. In China, rice is viewed as a cheap food that you eat when you don't have something else. When you go to a nice restaurant, you are likely to see no rice at all. I remember coming back from a 2-week trip with a great craving for rice and carbs in general.

However, I don't understand the comment about heavy sauces. I don't think of Chinese food as having heavy sauces in general. China is a much bigger country than Japan - there are a lot of styles of food there. Some dishes are very simple and some are more complicated. Both China and Japan have simple economical food and dishes for fancy dinners with exotic expensive ingredients where people are trying to impress.

I would love to have some REAL chinese food cooked well.

You could try cooking some yourself. The Breath of the Wok is a good place to start. This week I made Virginia Yee's braised short ribs from there and hot and sour cabbage from The Food of China (a book I was given as a gift and probably wouldn't have bought because I generally don't think much of "coffee table" format cookbooks this one is quite good).

As far as difference between food here and there, I think that Gellchom has part of it - adapting to the available ingredients caused some change. And differences are also due to the regional variation in China as sffog mentioned. But there is also some cultural adaptation. One of the most noticeable differences to me is that in China meat and poultry are often served chopped into small pieces that include the bones. That would be kind of hard to eat with a fork because the bones would get in the way but with chopsticks, you pick up a piece - eat the meat off it and return the bone to the little plate in front of you. In mainland China at a nice restaurant there was often a waiter or two in near constant attendance so the little plates were changed out when bones and stuff built up on them. They feel that cooking with the bones adds to the flavor of the dish. I agree and often prefer bone in meat.

"--------in China meat and poultry are often served chopped into small pieces that include the bones. That would be kind of hard to eat with a fork because the bones would get in the way but with chopsticks, you pick up a piece - ---"

For the Chinese, it is considered uncivilized and unlucky to have knives and forks on the dinner table because they are weapons. Chopsticks symbolize cooperation.

dcarch

That just reminded me of a story. Years ago I dated a Chinese girl, and one day I was invited to a large dinner gathering at her grandmother's apartment. Now I can manage pretty well with chopsticks, but there were some chunks of meat that I just couldn't figure out how to eat politely. So about half way through the meal I reluctantly asked for a knife. To my surprise, when I was done with it someone asked if they could use it. And then it was passed to someone else. Next thing you know that knife had pretty much made its way around the table. I never did know quite what to make of that!

This is very interesting. I love reading about the different foods from the different regions in China and other places. Thanks for sharing. In one of the publications sent to me by Seed Saver's Exchange a year or so ago, they published a speech given by Lynne Rossetto Kasper. She spoke (wrote) about the food of Italy, and that it's not just Northern Italy or Southern Italy, but each region, and even each village has their own cuisine and style of doing things based on what's available to them. It makes perfect sense, especially in cultures that are very old, and grew in areas with limited transportation.

Sally

Mexico has a highly refined cuisine despite the stereotype of Mexican food in the U.S. Like music and other cultural phenomena, the food varies from region to region. Each region, for example, has its own style of tamales. You don't have to travel far to encounter a different regional cuisine. This leads to an anecdote.

When I see an item I don't recognize on a menu, more often than not I order it. On a trip to Michoacań I ordered corundas two or three times before I got it though my thick head that corundas are a Michoaceño type of tamal which is made in the shape of a tetrahedron.

Jim

Mexico has a highly refined cuisine despite the stereotype of Mexican food in the U.S. Like music and other cultural phenomena, the food varies from region to region. Each region, for example, has its own style of tamales. You don't have to travel far to encounter a different regional cuisine. This leads to an anecdote.

When I see an item I don't recognize on a menu, more often than not I order it. On a trip to Michoacań I ordered corundas two or three times before I got it though my thick head that corundas are a Michoaceño type of tamal which is made in the shape of a tetrahedron.

Jim

Ideefixe, I meant to get that book when it came out--it's supposed to be a pretty fun read and is a fascinating topic. But I didn't know it was written by family of CF!

dcarch, I wish I had a Chinese friend. I used to know lots of Chinese people when I worked at Penn, but now I work in the land of ordinary mostly white people. The closest Chinese person is the little 18 month old girl next door who was adopted from China.

I went for Chinese food last night. I had wonton soup and Walnut Beef. The family at the next table were Asian and using their chopsticks like pro's. I wish I had been next to them or I would have struck up a conversation. I can't use chopsticks to save my life although they make good garden stakes for small plants.

One person at my table had Chinese eggplant and I didn't like it at all.

jkom - I just ordered "Chinese Food." Thanks for the rec; I'll let you know what I think.

foodonastump, hope you like the cookbook, my copy is in pretty fragile condition but still holding up, thank goodness.

Something that no one has mentioned here is that traditionally, there are 3 types of Chinese cooking:
1) home cooking
2) restaurant cooking (this includes deli items)
3) banquet cooking (e.g., nobility & royalty)

Just as in Japanese cuisine you would never have a 'kaiseki' dinner in someone's home, there are certain dishes that are seldom if ever made by a Chinese home cook. Conversely there are many family recipes that will never make it into any restaurant menu - keeping secret recipes is so traditionally ingrained in the culture, we know any number of recipes that have disappeared, even within our own family/friends social circle, as the older generation has died off. They wouldn't even tell their own children how to make certain dishes!

What cloud_swift says about rice is quite accurate. I so much take it for granted it didn't even occur to me to mention it (I'm Japanese-American and my DH and MIL are Chinese-Portugese, foreign-born). Most Chinese home cooks I know do make gravy dishes. Gravy and rice is a much-loved staple of 'home cooking' that many Chinese remember with the same fondness as Americans feel towards chocolate chip cookies warm from the oven. My DH and his mother adore a bowlful of rice with lots of gravy; the meat is almost superfluous.

Traditionally, however, Cantonese cooking is regarded as the pinnacle of Chinese regional cuisine because it is the 'garden' of China. The food is fresh and very lightly sauced so that one tastes what is truly there. After all, before refrigeration gravies in Asia served the same purpose that they did in Europe - they made rotting meat and vegetables palatable as well as extending the number of people that could be fed.

Interestingly - my DH comes from a mixed-blood middle-class culture in Hong Kong - his family doesn't regard vegetables very highly. Prosperity = meat, in their minds. A roast chicken is the equivalent of a hunk of prime rib, to his entire extended family. When they want to show him how much they love him (he was the first-born son in his generation), they make him a roast chicken - one to eat and one to take home!

The first Xmas I spent with my DH, we visited five homes of his relatives in the area. Every single one of them had cooked or deli-purchased at least one, some of them two, roast chickens, solely for him. It was an acknowledgment of his status in the family as much as it was an expression of affection.

This is turning out to be a very nice thread. Thank you everyone.

jkom51 is correct. There is a different kind of meal, a Chinese banquet. It is incredible. Typically 10 or more main courses. You must learn to pace yourself if you are invited to one.

On a different note. Don't expect to be able to get alcoholic drinks in a Chinese restaurant. Drinking is not a very important part of their eating experience.

dcarch

LOL FOAS! I thought you meant you just ordered Chinese food (as in fried rice and won ton soup) and I couldn't figure out why you were thanking Jkom...thud! LOL

Thanks to all of you who have Asian blood, family or have traveled the Far East. I love the insight.

Good points, Jkom. What people eat at home isn't the same as what they eat at restaurants (which can be true here). Rice may not appear at a fancy meal but it is something that will be eaten at home.

When I was first going to China (usually in the role of principle engineer visiting our customers or partners), the Chinese sales guy doing the ordering for business meals would often order dishes that were almost entirely meat. Very little vegetables appeared on the table. I was glad on later trips to be accompanied by a business development person who always ordered some dishes with more vegetables (because he felt it necessary for good health).

The business dinners were often almost banquets with many many dishes.

One thing that I have really enjoyed when eating in China is that the meals often have in season produce of the highest quality. One trip in the spring, almost every meal had at least one dish that was edged with thumb size baby bok choy (I wonder if they overplant the fields and sell the thinnings as the plants grow). And when I was there in late July, every meal was proceeded or followed (or both) by a plate of lovely ripe watermelon.

(I thought a little about whether to eat raw fruit and veg there since it goes against the travel health recommendations I'd seen. I decided that I would at my hotel or in the restaurants where my Chinese colleagues were comfortable with it. I haven't had any problems from that.)

Yes, traditionally a Chinese banquet never has any rice. A restaurant will bring you some if you ask for it, but they're always surprised you would want it, LOL. Like holding the bowl up to your mouth and shoveling food in with your chopsticks, it's a lower-class behavior (nonetheless, we do it in my family all the time, at least at home or in inexpensive restaurants!).

As a matter of fact, Asians drink a lot, and what they drink is very high-alcohol content liquor. More Hennessey and Remy Martin cognac per capita is sold in Hong Kong and China than anywhere else in the world. They often drink it by the tumblerfull, with meals - no dinky little shotglasses.

Most Chinese American restaurants don't carry a liquor license because it's expensive to purchase, not because they don't drink. In a true social banquet setting in Asia, it is not unusual when after the meal ends, the men try to drink one another under the table (literally).

Although most people are only familiar with rice wine (of which Japanese sake is the most well-known), the Chinese have a long history of distilled liquors called "shao jiu" which when served warm, pack a potent alcoholic wallop.

Drunkenness in certain social situations is accepted within Asian cultures. In fact, in Japan it is the one acceptable time to tell someone to their face what your opinion of them (or something else) truly is: you can later disclaim any responsibility for it merely by saying you were drunk at the time. Such an excuse results in no loss of face for you, or your companion. It is perfectly all right for a Japanese businessman to be seen face down in the gutter, as long as hes drunk or at least, says that he is!

Interesting read (I read it earlier today but am now just responding). I'm in the U.S. and I have eaten at several places in our area that are quite authentic. I also have eaten at places that are American style and I like them also.

I was told that most Asians are allergic to alcohol. They just can't drink.

I have many Asian friends. None of them touch the stuff. None. zero.

I have been to the Far East a few times. I don't remember many restaurants there serve alcohol either.

dcarch

Dcarch I worked for years with many Asians new to Canada and they all enjoyed a drink or two. Never wine... but beer, sake and Canadian Whiskey! LOL

Isn't sake fermented rice wine?

I just made a bit of Asian tonite - chix fried rice, and roasted eggplant and cashews in a spicy garlic miso. Didn't suck.

I prefer Thai to Chinese but that's just me. However I agree that American chinese and traditional are very different. In our old neighborhood a Chinese friend ordered Chinese from the local shop but from a "Chinese" menu - marketedly different food, wow!

Darch, I've never seen any evidence of most Asians being allergic to alcohol.

I don't recall being served hard liquor with meals in China, but beer was very commonly served. Tsingtao and other Chinese beers go very well with Chinese food. My Chinese colleagues usually chose to have some beer with their meal. And rice wine or liquor is also drunk there though it usually wasn't offered at the meals I had. When I visited the house of a Chinese-American classmate once, her mom was working on making rice wine.

In Japan at one time, social-business drinking to the point of being sick afterward was rather a problem. Haven't heard much about it lately. But there were a number of articles about it around the time Bush went to Japan.

In Japan, beer and/or sake are often drunk with dinner and sometimes with lunch. When I first traveled there in the late 80's, people kept to the cultural custom that you never pour for yourself. You are suppose to be attentive to your companion and pour when their glass is empty. On more recent trips, that tradition seems to have relaxed and people will often pour for themselves.

If you are the guest of honor at a banquet in Japan, it can get hard to keep track of how much you are drinking because your cup is full all the time.

I live really close to Vancouver, and I am there all the time.Yes....Fabulous Chinese food,and all around Fabulous restaurants in Vancouver !!! Yummy !!!! Diana55 P.S.....The "Markets" there are Wonderful too !!! Can you say Fresh Food !!! LOL

I loved eating in Vancouver Chinatown during my student years there where friends and I would go to an upstairs dining room used only by Chinese families. But when I was married living in Vancouver we used the Chinese varsity grill student diner up on Tenth Avenue many times and my girls learned how to use chopsticks at an early age.
We all drank Jasmine tea when we ate there.

SharonCb

Asian men are heavy drinkers. They go to bars for that. Not a family restaurant. Some Asians develop a bright red "mask" on their face and neck when they imbibe - I don't know if that is an allergy or not. My Korean ping pong buddies like to go out to drink (and eat) after our weekend ping pong games. They drink, drink, drink. And they make you drink. They will bring their empty shot glass or beer glass to you and fill it up for you to drink (straight shot if it is a shot glass full of Soju - Korean vodka-type booze). Then you are expected to drain the glass and give it to another. Dangerous behavior - sometimes fun, but after a while - whoah Nelly! Chinese and Japanese have similar social drinking practices.

at a chinese banquet a common practice is to toast every course usually with liquor, and a banquet normally has no fewer than 9 courses and a toast mean bottoms up, in mainland china , a chinese made hard liquor was served to us , in hong kong it tended to be remy, a black label scotch,hennessy , mentioned by jkom51.the japanese love to drink and then they try to sing, so much fun.one japanese friend would get drunk and he would sing and try to dance. i miss those days

I have not too many Japanese or Korean friends, so I don't know.

This is indeed very interesting how we have such completely different experiences with the Chinese.

I have gone out with many Chinese friends and clients. In general, if I order wine, they will also order wine just to be polite. Seldom have I seen them drink more then a few mouth full.

I have been invited to many big banquets also. Typically the tables with the Westerners there will be plenty of drinking, while all the Chinese tables will have their liquors, typically whiskeys, untouched and someone will take them home.

In deed, most of the Chinese when they touch alcohol, their face will turn bright red, if they drink more, they will get a terrible headache before they get drunk.

I just cannot understand if they are heavy drinkers why then in general no Chinese restaurant serves drinks. They can make a lot more money selling alcohol than selling food.

As I understand, Chinese do have a habit of buying very expensive whiskeys and brandies, but mostly as status symbols and gifts.

dcarch

This is a fabulous thread. Please keep the information coming. I love hearing about other cultures from an insider's point of view.
In fact, I would like to start a new thread about other dining/eating cultures.
jo

I wouldn't want to stereotype all Asian men (or any other group) as heavy drinkers. I expect that some are, but when I've been in Japan, China and Korea, it has been moderate drinking - some beer and saki or Chinese rice wine. Maybe it's because my experience is mainly with engineers. In Taiwan, we went to one of the karaoke places a couple of times, but even then, drinking was just to the point of loosening inhibitions enough for people like me who normally wouldn't sing in public to do so. Not to the point of being physically uncomfortable then or the next morning.

Once the karaoke was in one of those places with a private room for your group and once it was in a bar/restaurant where I was introduced to one of the other participants who was the local police chief.

Wow, I missed a lot in this thread! Been busy lately...

I grew up next door to a Japanese family and through babysitting their youngest and then becoming friends with them, I ended up being what they termed, "daughter number 4." Then, I lived with a Chinese family for about 6 months when I was 18 and then with the son of the family for another 4 years. A good many of my friends were Asian throughout Junior High, High School and College, and then I had a Japanese boyfriend for another 4 years and became very close with his family. I also worked in a Japanese family restaurant for 8 years, learning from the owners as well.

So, I learned to eat and cook Chinese and Japanese home-style foods and the differences between them and the sorts of foods we are often offered in American Chinese and Japanese restaurants.

As others have mentioned, very often the dishes we're offered in menus are dishes that have been "tried and true" as good sellers for White folks. It isn't that these dishes aren't eaten in Japan or China (with some exceptions, like "chop suey", which is a completely American invention), it's just that they are the dishes thought to be most attractive to the clientele, and so are repeated in menu after menu.

American Japanese restaurants, for example, almost always feature beef or chicken teriyaki and tempura in various combinations with other items. Beef in Japan is a celebration food, very expensive, and certainly not doled out in the large portions we expect here. Chicken is less expensive, but still generally served in smaller portions. Tempura is served in restaurants and specialty food stalls, not so much made at home...the Japanese housewife being no more enthusiastic about using vast amounts of vegetable oil and dealing with the mess of frying than any other housewife.

Fish and seafood are more ubiquitous than meat and poultry, though still served in smaller portions than Americans are used to receiving. Simmered, sauteed, and pickled vegetables of many kinds are served with every meal, and soup with most.

In a Chinese home, things that we are accustomed to seeing on a menu like, sweet and sour pork, chow mein, fried rice, egg rolls, walnut prawns, egg foo yung and mushu pork are eaten, but not the way we typically eat them. You wouldn't have fried rice with a stir fry dish for example. Fried rice is a meal in itself, plain rice is used as an accompaniment to other dishes. Noodles are eaten in lieu of rice in many areas of China, but again, fried with meat and vegetables, they are a meal in themselves. Served as an accompaniment, they are more often plain or very lightly seasoned.

A home style Chinese meal will most often consist of several different dishes served at the same time. Many of them are quite a bit more simple and straight forward than what you might get at a restaurant. The Chinese tend to rely more on the quality and flavor of the main ingredient of a dish rather than the elaborate sauces we are accustomed to. A typical meal at the Yee house would start with some simple soup or other, maybe a broth based soup with wintermelon or watercress, tofu and pork, or mustard greens with chicken wings, or a thickened soup like hot and sour or egg drop. There would be a steamed dish, either a whole fish or chicken parts seasoned perhaps with ginger and scallions, maybe a few slices of Chinese sweet sausage or dried scallops and chopped pickled greens. Some sort of vegetable would likely be served after quickly stir frying it with some soy, ginger and rice wine or oyster sauce. Some simmered tofu or stewed meat of some kind and some crisp fresh veggies or pickles. Rice, almost always. Dishes would be combined with the idea of contrasting and complimenting textures and flavors in mind.

China is a huge country, and vast areas (and tiny areas for that matter) were historically isolated from others for centuries, if not thousands of years. This being the case, many distinct differences in cuisine types and food preferences developed.

A few table manners hints...Never leave the ends of your chopstix leaning inside a bowl or plate. That is only done at funerals, to help the spirit eat. Chopstix should always rest across the bowl or plate or against a rest if one is provided. If eating family style (dishes in the middle, with each diner selecting morsels from them with his/her chopstix), never reach into a platter as someone else is, reverse your chopstix so that you pick up the morsel with the end that doesn't enter your mouth (unless dining with family only)and always at least "bounce" the morsel off the rice in your bowl...never take a morsel directly to your mouth from the platter. If your host/hostess speaks of being disappointed with the dish, or is critical of it, never agree or offer suggestions as to how to improve it. Criticizing one's own cooking is almost always a sign that the particular dish is of particular pride...you're meant to protest that it is absolutely perfect the way it is, couldn't possibly be improved! Slurp your soup...if you drink it too quietly, it's as if you are criticizing the cook for not serving it hot enough. Always protest at least twice if you are offered the last serving of a dish, but if you are the guest, allow yourself to be persuaded to take it in the end. Picking up a slice of food too large for one bite with chopstix, bringing it to your mouth to bite part off and replacing the remainder in your ricebowl is not bad manners, it's expected. Removing fish bones or other matter not to be swallowed from your mouth with your chopstix and placing them on the side of your plate is also not bad manners. Do not leave rice in your rice bowl, eat it all.

If you do not know how to use chopstix, don't torture yourself, ask for a fork. Generally, it is appreciated if you at least try them if everyone else is using them, but nobody wants you to starve.

When I say Asian men are heavy drinkers, it's comparable to if I said Americans love hotdogs. However, they are not as heavy drinkers as Russians.

For those who don't know me, I'm half Korean, born there and went back to live for a time, lived in Taipei and Hong Kong, and took many trips around Asia, especially Japan. Had a Korean boyfriend for a time. Hang out with Asians from different countries and regularly play ping pong and socialize with Koreans, Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, etc.

If you need "Asian expert" credentials I mean...

:-)

My husband is currently in Korea and he has some Korean co-workers that definitely like to drink. Not to say that all do, just saying that yes, Asian men are able to consume alcohol.

My brother is also Korean (though he doesn't know the culture at all) and he can certainly consume alcohol, so there's not a genetic reason that Asians in general can't drink.

That said, I am by no means an expert on any or all things Asian (I don't have Gina's "credentials" for sure!).

Brought up in the outskirts of a big city Mom and Dad would treat the family to Chinese food once in a while. It wasn't until later I found out there was nothing Chinese about it. Just a marketing ploy to niche commercial food. Then I got old enough to venture into the core of the city and discovered Chinatown. These restaurants serve food that seemed anything but like what I knew to be Chinese food. Taking it up one more notch every once in a while one of my friends would bring me into a restaurant where the menus were quite useless to us. All written in the Chinese language. The waiters could speak English and my buddy knew what to order. These places we're truly wonderful. Reminiscing I can almost can hear them chopping up a duck!

I just got back to this thread... and you all are making me hungry, and a bit wistful.

I moved to Hong Kong when I was 8, and lived there 2 years (40 years ago). We had a cook who made the BEST spring rolls. I'm glad they are now availavle here. And I remember learning to eat fish (most of which I didn't like until my late 30's) by having the most wonderful Grouper at a restaurant in Hong Kong. So for a long time I would say I don't like fish except for grouper.

As an American kid there before the gloabl takeover of MacDonald's we would torture our school friends with thoughts of a McD's burger or a real american hot dog (NOT a British banger sausage.) Even still, it (and my subsequent 2 years in Australia) did a lot to help expand my palate.

Great thread. I need to get a couple of those cookbooks...

From Wikipedia,
" ------------ Alcohol tolerance in different ethnic groups
People of European descent on average have a high alcohol tolerance compared to Aboriginal Australians, Native Americans and some East Asian groups. This is related to an average higher body mass, but also to the prevalence of high levels of alcohol dehydrogenase in the population. The high alcohol tolerance in Europeans and some other ethnic groups has probably evolved as a consequence of centuries of exposure to alcohol in established agricultural societies. [2]
An estimated one third of persons of East Asian and Native American descent have an alcohol flush reaction, a condition where the body cannot break down ingested alcohol completely because it lacks the genetically coded enzyme that performs this function in the bodies of drinkers with "European" tolerance levels. Flushing, or blushing, is associated with the erythema (reddening caused by dilation of capillaries) of the face, neck, and shoulder, after consumption of alcohol.----------"

BTW, I have never ever seen a Chinese lady use alcohol. (except in cooking)

dcarch

Rachelellen,

Thank you for your wonderful post. Your words really painted a picture of the culture in ways in which a visit to a chinese restaurant never could. I am really loving this thread.

jo

Wickipedia is only as accurate as the info which has been input.
While some of what you have said appears to be factually correct, I am lots happier with the medical study as reported in the link below.
Native Americans are known for having a high tolerance for alcohol....for metabolizing it well.
I guess I would be more inclined to believe the Asians who post here and those who have spent lots of time in Asian countries than Wickipedia which posts what people have contributed.
I have been in many MANY Chinese Restaurants that serve alcohol and actually seen lots of Chinese women drink....although whether they are ladies or not may be a matter of semantics.
I am constantly amazed by the diversity, experience and intelligence of the people who post here, and their willingness to share their backgrounds and experiences.
Linda C

Hey, I'm of Native American descent and I'm a two drink drunk, LOL, so my tolerance level is low. Why? I think because I'm small and because I almost never drink, but I have relatives my size that consume copious amounts of alcohol without noticeable effects. They've had lots of practice, I'm not sure it's genetic!

Notice the study said "many" or "some", it doesn't extend to all. I also note that Wikipedia says "1/3" of Asians, so that's a minority by my numbers, certainly not "most" or "all". I always just assumed that some people of asian descent didn't drink well because they were slender and/or smaller people and so couldn't assimilate large amounts of alcohol, just like everyone else.

As I said, my experience with Chinese culture was limited to several months with a high school Chinese exchange student. She assured Ashley that Chinese teenagers had the same drinking parties that American teenagers had, and kids got in trouble with their parents for drinking too much, if that adds at all to this conversation. So maybe they just had very cheap parties, and only needed to drink a few at those parties.

I can also say, based on my experience in owning a local bar/grille for a lot of years, that Native Americans make the happiest drunks I've ever seen. I don't think there's probably a study on that, though.

So, as usual, we're all "kind of" right...

Annie

Posted by lindac
"Wickipedia is only as accurate as the info which has been input.
While some of what you have said appears to be factually correct, I am lots happier with the medical study as reported in the link below.
Native Americans are known for having a high tolerance for alcohol....for metabolizing it well.
I guess I would be more inclined to believe the Asians who post here and those who have spent lots of time in Asian countries than Wickipedia which posts what people have contributed.
I have been in many MANY Chinese Restaurants that serve alcohol and actually seen lots of Chinese women drink....although whether they are ladies or not may be a matter of semantics. ---- Here is a link that might be useful: Johns Hopkins study "

The J. Hopkins study seem to also confirm this"--- known as "Asian flush." If you haven't noticed, most Asians have a very low alcohol tolerance, and after only a few beers, are usually red in the face and stumbling drunk. According to http://mentalhealthchannel.net, research has shown that many Asians have a deficiency or complete absence of a liver enzyme that breaks down alcohol. Because of this, they experience vomiting, flushing and increased heart rate.----"

True, a lot of Chinese restaurant service alcohol, but mostly those who also expect many Western patrons. The ones who mostly service Chinese will not have alcohol.

I had lunch today with a couple of Chinese. Learned something interesting.

Chinese like to drink coffee. If you go to a Chinese coffee shop and ask for a cup of coffee, they will automatically serve you coffee with cream and sugar already in your coffee.

dcarch

Same thing happens at coffee shops in the Northeast.
"How you do you want your coffee? Regular" and it comes with cream in it and sugar on the side.....at least that's what I found 4 years ago when I was last in a coffee shop in northern New Jersey, and the North east was my home foe many years, and it was ever thus!
Yes...."many" Asians may have a deficiency of a liver enzyme that metabolizes alcohol....just as many Jews are lactose intolerant and many people of Mediterranean ethnicity have Tay-Sach disease....many but not a majority.
To say that Asians don't drink because they get drunk very quickly and that Chinese ladies don't consume alcohol is an inaccurate generalization.
My friend, Jean, would be amazed to know that Chinese "ladies" don't drink!
Linda C

dcarch, I'm sorry but you are beating a dead horse. Not all Asians have the enzyme deficiency, and not all of them who do abstain from alcohol.

If a restaurant has an alcohol license, by golly they are going to serve alcohol, as that is a revenue stream they will not ignore.

I don't care how many wikis and such you post, you are wrong in your assertions.

Ok, regarding alcohol my takeaway is to bring a hip flask when going to a Chinese restuarant - just in case. So... what were we saying about the food? Me, I'm still stuck on the fish tank. That freaks me out a bit. But then again, I eat lobster from a tank so I guess it's just what I'm used to.

FOAS regarding fish in the tank

Ever see Monty Python's 'Meaning of Life'

All restaurant fish tank fish to us is now 'Fred'

LindaC,

Dont get me wrong, I am not making a scientific statistical statement here that Chinese ladies dont drink.

I am only saying that in the many times I have traveled throughout China, many times to Hong Kong, Macau, Toronto, at least 20 times to Vancouver, many years of eating here in NYCs Chinatown, Flushings Chinatown, and Brooklyns Chinatown, I just dont remember ever having seen a Chinese lady consuming alcohol.

I am certainly not disputing your having observed the opposite situation. It is just very interesting that my observations are quite different.

gina_w,

I am also surprised that this alcohol topic is dragging out a little longer than I expected. I do find it an interesting topic of learning because it so different than our Western culture and as part of eating habits.

This is really the first time I look up the information to confirm what I have heard all along, for my own benefit and not for the sake of argument, about alcohol sensitivity. I dont believe that I have said "all Asian" anywhere. I am not making any "assertions" other than my own may be biased observations.

I am sorry that my one-time referencing Wiki seemed to offend you. Sometime people get offended if you dont cite references.

I do understand you have substantial "credential" in these topics, which makes it even more curious to me, for example, your observation that the Chinese and Japanese have similar social drinking practices is very different than mine. The Chinese and the Japanese working and socializing habits are nowhere near in my experience. I ride the train here in NY Westchester back and forth regularly. The train is also known as "Train to Tokyo " because so many Japanese work late into the night. You will not see too many Chinese work that way. I have been invited a few times to Japanese nighttime "entertainment" with the guys, and I know what you mean by their drinking habits.

But as Anne1992 said, " As usual, we are all kind of right"

We all have different friends and travel in different circles and we all have different life experiences.

No more dead horse beating.

dcarch

This might be the first time ever I've seen that being cast as a non-drinker is more offensive than being cast as a heavy drinker. Can't say as I mind though.

Cheers, salut, cin cin!!!

FOAS, my father always said that he didn't understand why people would brag about having a high tolerance for alcohol - it just meant that you were an inefficient user of it and would take more to get the benefit.

Ocean fish are generally very sensitive to water quality because they are evolved for the stable environment of the great big ocean. Creatures that live in smaller bodies of water or shallow tidal areas like fresh water fish and crustaceans tend to accept wider variation. If the tanks aren't well kept, one is likely to see some signs of stress. The places I've been with live fish had walls of tanks with the aerators and filters going.

Annie, two drinks is about my limit. I don't think it is that alcohol affects me more than others - I just like the taste and sometimes the pleasantly detached relaxed feeling that a drink or two generates but I don't like being more out of control or tipsy feeling.

Dcarch, sometimes there were women engineers amongst my colleagues in China and Japan. Their drinking habits were the same as the guys when I was there - a beer or sake or two during dinner. I don't recall any colleagues on trips there ever saying they couldn't or didn't drink alcohol. At a guess, about 10% of my US colleagues are non-drinkers for reasons including religion, personal dislike or health.

Linda, you must be thinking of something other than Tay Sachs disease which is usually fatal in infancy when it occurs. The Tay Sachs gene is present with higher than usual frequency in Ashkenazic Jews, Cajuns and French Canadians - not people of Mediterranean ancestry and even then it isn't very common. About 2 to 3% of Ashkenazic Jews are carriers and it takes two genes to have the disease.

Obviously I am thinking of another disease...also a blood disease....can't say it...
But to keep the metaphor....how about Africans and sickle cell anemia?

lindac- Thalassaemia?