Foodon:
I thought you were all set on the Pizza Dough.
Didn't know you were having all these problems.

Here is the Dough recipe again.

Dough recipe:

1 Package of Active Dry Yeast, 1 tablesps sugar,in a half cup of warm water.

1 cup of warm water (not hot)
1/4 Cup of Veg. Oil
1 teasp. Salt
About 3 1/2 cups Flour
1/2 cup of Whole Wheat flour or up to 1 cup

Place in a mixing bowl, the Water, 1 cup of flour, wheat flour , yeast if risen
Add the oil and salt and more flour.
Add enough flour to make a soft ball of dough, that doesn't stick to your hands.
Knead until smooth. Put it back in the bowl , Smooth side up and Rub on some Veg. Oil
Cover and set in a warm place to rise until it doubles in bulk.
I put it in a warm oven, Covered with a damp towel. It rises in about 1 hour.
On the bottom shelf I place a pan of hot water.

When doubled, ( about 1/2 to 3/4 hour )punch it down and knead it well.
Divide into Balls , about 11 to 12 ounces and place in oiled pans. 12" round
Dough should be about 3/16 " thick on the bottom and about " around the edge.
For Sicilian Pizza , I used most of the dough in a 11" X 16" pan.
If any dough is left over, I'll make a small prebaked Pizza Dough.

I put the dough in Oiled Pans, flatten slightly and let them rest a few minutes.
Go back every few minutes and stretch the dough out towards the edge a little more.
Do this until the dough is all the way out to the edge and up the side about a half inch.

If you want to Bake it right on the Stone, you can roll it out with a Rolling Pin but
you most likely can't roll it out to size, all at one time.
It will want to spring back. Let it rest a few minutes.
Then roll it more each time.

Other that this I don't know what the problem may be.

How is the oven temperature ? Check it out.

Lou

Sorry you are having such trouble with something that can be so fun and delicious.

"how do I know when the dough is kneaded enough?"

Yeast dough that has been properly kneaded will hold together in a cohesive ball; it will be resilient and spring back when indented with your finger; it may sometimes have slight striations or wrinkles on the surface. It is hard to over knead dough, but rather beyond achieving the description above, you are just expending time and energy not necessary after about 15 minutes.

Over rising does not contribute to a too dry dough unless you have left the surface exposed to the air for too long. Drizzle some olive oil (about 2 t.) into the bowl that you plan to use for rising. Spread the oil around in the bottom of the bowl and up the sides with your hands. Plop in your ball of dough; turn the dough in the oil in the bottom of the bowl to coat the dough with some of the oil; then, turn the greased surface facing up to rise. Cover the bowl with plastic wrap and then cover with a clean woven dish cloth.

"Because often it rises so fast I catch it only after it's gone well past double."

Are you using too much yeast? Check on the dough after 30 minutes, again at 45 minutes, again at 60 minutes, again at 75 minutes, etc. Press an indentation with your finger into to the dough; if it immediately starts to fill up with dough, then it needs to rise some more. If the indention stays, it has risen enough. If the dough starts to collapse when pressed it has risen too much -- but that doesn't mean the dough is a flop and cannot be used. Just turn it out and knead about 2 minutes to press out most of the air. Set the dough aside, cover it, and let it rest while you get the rest of your toppings prepared.

When shaping the dough, you aren't supposed to stretch it by hand very much, because the dough has a natural tendency to shrink back up when stretched. Instead, on a lightly floured surface, press the dough out with your finger tips to start enlarging it. Press a bit, then let the dough rest a minute; then continue pressing and repeat the resting period if the dough wants to shrink up.

You can roll out the dough to make a larger thinner crust, again resting the dough between rolling actions. What you are doing is letting the dough rest a minute or two for it to become accustomed to its new (enlarged) size. Sounds silly, I know, but that is what is needed.

This is the dough I really like at the moment from Becky on the Recipe Exchange. I like the flavor and texture of this dough and it is really, really, easy!

"Like a lot of us, I have been working on perfecting my pizza making skills for a long time. I was telling a friend about my new favorite pizza crust recipe, and thought I'd share it since I'd formatted it to send to her.

While it's definitely better if it's made the full 24 hours in advance, I have a hard time thinking that far ahead sometimes. So I've been making it in the morning, leaving it to rise all day in my oven with the light on for a little heat, and while it's not quite as good as after the full 24 hours, it's still pretty tasty. I also don't bother with putting the dough in a fresh bowl - I leave it in the bowl it was mixed in, and scrape it out with a bench scraper at the end. Enjoy :-)

Becky"

* Exported from MasterCook *

Artisanal Pizza Dough

3 cups bread or all purpose flour
1/2 teaspoon active dry yeast
3/4 teaspoon kosher salt
1 1/4 cups 2% low-fat milk
2 tablespoons olive oil -- plus more for bowl

Whisk the flour, yeast and salt together in a large bowl, then pour in the milk and oil. Mix together with a large fork or your hands. Knead once or twice to form a ball. It may be sticky, but that's okay.

Oil a bowl and set the dough in it. Lay a sheet of waxed paper loosely over the top, then cover with plastic wrap. Place a clean dish towel over the bowl and allow to rise at room temperature and undisturbed for 24 hours. Turn the dough once in the bowl about 3 hours before you want to use it. The 24 hour fermentation process takes the place of kneading the dough.

When you are ready to make your pizza, divide the dough in half on a lightly floured board, then proceed with your pizza making. The dough can be frozen for up to a month; Thaw at room temperature before using.

Makes two 12"-14" pizza crusts

Source:
""Pizza on the Grill" by Elizabeth Karmel and Bob Blumer

Teresa's note: Turn the dough in the bowl means to me to turn the ball of dough over so that the top is on the bottom and the bottom is now on the top.

FOAS, I usually press my dough onto the pizza pan with oiled hands. Sometimes, when it's being 'ornery', a little more oil(on my hands), and letting it rest momentarily helps it to relax and not fight me so much. Also, I only let the dough rise once, punch down, let rest a minute or so, then turn onto the pan and press from the middle out to fit the pan, then add sauce and toppings. I don't knead it a second time.

Foodon - PS:

I forgot ! You can bake the Pizza using the fresh dough or
make prebaked Pizza Dough and freeze them.

To make the prebaked and freeze, dock the dough and
bake until slight tan specks start to show.
Cool fast on racks and freeze.

To use the fresh Dough:
I dock the Dough, spread on the Pizza Sauce and bake it,
about 8 minutes.
Take it out and put on the toppings and finish baking.
I do it this way so the cheese doesn't overcook.
Add ,if any, pepperoni about 5 minutes before it is done.

If you have anymore problems , call the cops !!!

Lou

Regarding "ornery" dough, I agree with the others about letting it rest a bit between stretches, pattings, or rolllngs. Just be sure it's covered so it doesn't dry out. I read or saw another helpful hint (in Cook's Illustrated, I think) that I've used successfully for a couple of years now. After I get the dough close to where I want it, I drape it over a flour dusted bowl that has been turned upside down. Gravity works to enlarge the dough without fussing with a bunch of rolling or patting. Then I can just pull down a bit on the dough edges that are hanging down. I pick a bowl that's large enough to give me the size I'm going for, and, of course, I cover the dough with some plastic wrap so it won't dry out. I can work on slicing up mushrooms, sauteing sausage, or whatever. And then every once in a while tug on the dough edges. Then I just transfer the dough round onto a peel covered with parchment paper and bake on a stone. About two minutes before the pizza is done, I remove the parchment.

If you really want help, visit the pizza making forum. The guys there are very serious about making pizza, and many of them run pizza restaurants and are very generous with their help. They helped me with my pizza dough recipe until I got it down to a science, and I am very pleased with the results.

Lars

Another thing that will aid in relaxing the dough is to add a tablespoon of Vital Wheat Gluten. You should be able to find it in your grocery store near the flour or in the organic section. Your dough will be softer and a little easier to handle when adding VWG. I've been adding it for years to my breads and pizza doughs. If I forget to add it, I notice a definite difference.

Lori

Thanks for all the suggestions. It sounds to me it's more a matter of my patience while shaping than anything recipe-related. I'll try letting it rest as I work it. (Not that they seem to need much more than 15 seconds to shape a pie at the pizza shop, but whatever.)

To try something new I will try the recipe Theresa posted. Heading out for 2% now. And hoping that the "doesn't really matter" from the yeast thread holds true for this recipe, because all I've got on hand is instant. And that my high gluten flour will be acceptable.

Thanks again; I'll post my results tonight.

also, adding a couple of tablespoons of corn meal helps relax the gluten.
And a softer dough...less flour more water is easier to roll out, but harder to slide off the peel onto the stone.
Also fat added to the dough helps make it a little more stretchable....but I prefer a chewey bread like crust.
Adding milk to the dough will make it brown faster....maybe a good thing...maybe not.

FOAS, that's a good point. I didn't know about the resting periods during shaping, and I've had trouble shaping pizza dough into nice rounds, also. I'll try the resting thing next time I make pizza. But, what about pizza shops? What do they do? Use a dough relaxer or something?

Sally

FOAS, your high gluten flour will be perfect. I use high gluten flour for all my breads and pizza. I have a batch of French bread dough in the fridge destined for pizza tonight. I made a triple batch of dough on Wednesday. I used half to bake bread Wednesday and the remaining dough was put in the fridge, giving the dough a chance to develop. I'm working today so Moe will take the dough out of the fridge around 3:00 PM so that the dough will have time to come to room temperature. I'll have enough dough to bake a large pizza and at least one more loaf of bread.

I have found that almost any decent bread dough will make a great pizza crust. And if you give the dough a day or two in the fridge to develop the flavour and the texture will be even better. When patting out the dough the idea is to get the dough a little thinner in the middle with a slight thickness around the other edge. The tip about letting the dough rest is a good one. Each time you start to feel some resistance, give it a couple of minutes before working it again. And once shaped get it into the oven immediately. You don't want the dough rising again before baking otherwise you will have a thick crust.

Good luck tonight.

Ann

Lars, was it you that originally posted the link to the 'pizza making forum'? If so, thank you! Although it gets pretty technical over there, they helped me tweak my method and recipe for my particular circumstance. I can't make too many changes...I'm in a rental so I'm stuck with the oven that's here, but my pizzas are slowly getting better. Thanks again!

I usually don't have time to make the dough when the pizza urge strikes, so I often buy it locally, to have it on hand. The most well behaved dough is one which has sat in my fridge for a few days. Fresh dough has a mind of its own. I bake it on the lower-middle rack, (as opposed to the middle to upper rack) at 500 degrees. works for me.

Like the others said, letting it rest is key. For me, that can take anywhere from 15-20 minutes, so be sure to give it enough time before you try forming the dough. If it's giving you trouble, leave it along a little longer. Good luck! It's a good day when you learn how to make pizza!

The dough in Pizza Shops is made, doubled, kneaded, weighed, rolled into a ball and
flattened slightly .
Then it is put into recepticles with a lid and it is placed in refrigeration.

It relaxes there and makes it easier to stretch, when needed.
Lou

Success!!! Well, almost.

Theresa's recipe is simple enough. If you follow it. Shortly after mixing I realized she called for kosher salt and I used regular. The annoying part about that is that I spent quite some time looking for the regular salt as I rarely use it. I don't know if effectively doubling the salt had a negative effect or not because...

About an hour before I wanted to use the dough, I remembered that I was supposed to turn it two hours ago. So I went to turn it and by that point it had a thick dry skin on it. Maybe something to do with the fact that I forgot the wax paper?

I quickly lost confidence in that dough and quickly threw together Cook's Illustrated's recipe using the FP. I decided to eliminate a huge potential for failure and patiently pressed half the dough into a pan rather than attempt to slide it onto the stone. It actually went quite easily this time. Half-way through baking I wasn't loving the crust so I made sure the pie wasn't sticking to the pan and slid it directly onto the stone.

It came out really well! It looked good and the family loved it. Not quite the crust I was looking for but I was very happy.

Tried to duplicate that exactly with the second pie. Unfortunately I missed that a section in front was stuck, so about a third of the pie got folded under and splatted cheese side down on the stone. What a mess. I still have to contend with that.

But at least we all had enough to eat and it was good!

Quick question - Was I wrong to place the pans on the stone? In retrospect that sounds like maybe not a great idea.

I think next time I'll again form in the pan (don't know why that was easier but it was) but on parchment paper so I can slide it easily onto the stone from the start. That's how I do my calzones.

The recipe I put together (a combination of CI's crust - I love their FP recipe, Ann's sauce and Pizza guys technique) is exactly that. I form mine onto the parchment, and slide it onto the stone. That works really well and as you already know, makes more direct contact with the dough.

FOAS :

All recipes are basically the same but everyone has the Best.

The recipe and instructions that I put in above are mine and very easy to Follow.

The Thick Dry Skin could have been avoided,
if you put it in a warm oven with a Damp towel over the Pan,( not touching the Dough ) and
placing a pan of hot water on the bottom shelf for humidity.
This force raises the dough too ( someone will comment )
In the Pizzeria I built a Cabinet for this, to hold 100 Pans.
Used a electric heat Plate on the bottom with a pot of water. That was to make heat and Humidity.
Worked great, many moons ago and now.
Lou

I avoid drying out my dough by mixing, kneading and raising it in a big yellow tupperware bowl(you know the one LOL). I don't have a large FP or mixer, and I'm only making one 16" pie(which serves as dinner and breakfast for two), so I do it by hand. After kneading(just to the non-sticky point, about 5 min), I drizzle a bit of oil on the dough ball, roll it around in the bowl to coat and put the lid on. It's usually very warm in the apartment, so I just leave the bowl on the counter for rising. I usually make what is called 'emergency dough', which has a short rise time, as opposed to the long, cold fermentation used for better crusts. But this old brain can't think ahead in terms of pizza, as I consider it a quick dinner(as in "Oh carp it's late, what's for dinner...pizza!!"). I usually stock up on bags of shredded Mozz for the freezer, and keep portioned sauce in the freezer, too.
I'd like to get some of the unglazed tiles for the oven which I'm sure would improve my crust, but I haven't seen any at Menard's and we don't live near HD. The large baking stones are too pricey(for me, anyway).

noinwi:
Is there a tile store or outlet near you that sells to tile contractors ???

You can probably pick up chipped tiles almost for nothing.
2 - 12 inch tiles would work good but be sure it don't close the sides all the way.
Leave about 1 1/2 inches on each side, for air circulation.
The tile can be cut.

A Ceramic Tile contractor may be able to help you.

" Seek and Shall find "

Lou

Never even thought of a tile store...I'll have to start looking. Thanks, Lou!

Don't forget to ask for seconds with a slighht chip.
You may be able to cut off the chipped part.

or tell them to cut it off for you. LOL !!!!!
Lou

For years I used unglazed quarry tiles to line my oven rack for baking pizza and breads. I bought the tiles at Lowe's for very little money; it only took about 8 tiles to line the rack, 4 on the back and 4 up front. If one tile broke, I just pulled another one out of the pantry to replace it. They were so cheap that I bought a few extras just in case of breakage.

Whatever tile or pizza stone you buy, remember to have an inch or two clearance all around for good air circulation.

Here is very easy recipe for making delicious pizza dough which I have used for years.

PIZZA CRUST DOUGH

Proof 1 package of rapid rise yeast in 1 teaspoon of honey and 1 1/2 cups of warm water.

Combine in food processor (using metal blade):
3 cups all purpose flour
3 tablespoons olive oil
1 teaspoon salt.

Turn on processor and quickly pour proofed yeast mixture in and process for 40 seconds into a ball, adding a small amount of flour if dough sticks to sides of bowl.

Remove dough, knead lightly a few times and place in a one gallon baggie secured at the end. Let rise one hour covered with a towel. Remove risen dough from baggie and create pizzas of your choice. One recipe makes two pizzas. Bake at 425 degrees on a bake stone.

Also: This dough recipe makes an excellent bread. After the first rising remove dough from baggie, form into a round loaf, cover with a towel and let rise a second time on a pizza paddle coated with cornmeal. Please, please do the following just before sliding off paddle into oven onto bake stone. Thinly slice extra sharp cheddar cheese pieces and lay them on top of bread, then dust all lightly with garlic salt. Do NOT slash the top of this bread before baking. It is not necessary. Bake bread at 425 degrees until it sounds hollow when tapped on the bottom or about 20 minutes.

FOAS:
Think I mentioned , all the Pizza Dough recipes are basically the same for 100 years.
Except for little Tweaks.
Reread all these Threads !!!!!
- - - - - - - - - - - -
How could so many people have the Best,
all these years.?????
Lou

I bought a round baking stone at Wal Mart for $10, and it works great - just as good as the really expensive and much heavier one from Pampered Chef. I have two - I put them on the lower and middle racks to preheat at 500F for about 30 minutes while I get toppings together and they're good to go.

FOAS - I was the OP of the dough recipe that Teresa shared, and it's the best dough I've ever made, and certainly the easiest - other than the having to plan ahead factor which I find challenging sometimes. I made that same dough last week and also forgot the wax paper over the top, but I had covered the top of the bowl with plastic wrap and hooked a large rubber band around it to hold the moisture in. When I went to give it a turn in the bowl it also had a dry-ish crust on the top - I was sharing the dough with a friend and after I divided it I kneaded each portion a few times and shaped them into balls. The dough baked up perfectly that night, so I don't think the dry crust had any negative effect. The salt however, might have been a different story...

The other thing I wanted to share is that this dough is pretty forgiving as far as the timing goes - I turned, kneaded and divided it about 6 hours before baking, and it was gorgeous when I took it out of the bowl, and it behaved beautifully. It was so relaxed I was able to shape it for the most part just by pulling and stretching and I just used a rolling pin for a couple of passes to even out the thickness.

I'm glad you were successful in the end - just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in :-)

Becky