Oh my. With all due respect, Annie. I think you've posted for layout help around ten different times in the past year or so.

http://www.houzz.com/activities/user/annekreel/posts

The last layout thread I was involved in, I posted this layout with a huge island that doesn't require any changes to the dining room wall. I think it was mama g's suggestion.

What has changed since the last thread? Did you get an estimate to replace the bay with a simple picture window?

ETA: I still believe that your bay window is not a feature worth designing an entire kitchen around. Especially if a large island is a priority to you.

benjesbride, I am sorry if my regular posts are annoying, but with each one, I get more ideas to improve my layout, bit by bit. I am far from skilled in this arena and am using the information I can from people like you to try and get a functional kitchen that will work for my family and be within budget. I was surprised to see the layout suggested by the KD because of the distances between work surfaces.

We did get a quote for the replacement of the bay and it is doable. My only issue with the layout referenced above is the distance from the sink to the fridge. I don't feel the need for two sinks (nor do I probably have the budget) in our kitchen and am trying to see if others have different suggestions for alternate layouts.

I thought the purposes of this site is to solicit feedback from others. I read dozens of posts per week to learn more and if I don't have anything constructive to say I move onto the next one.

Well, I'm hesitant to write this because of my past experience here, but it might help you. I have almost that exact layout. I had it in my old kitchen, and we tweeked it and did it again because we liked it. Not one person on here thought it was a good idea, but we don't regret it. It's your kitchen. The 32" is a bit tight. We had that and extended the straight part so we could have 36" there after the reno. I assume you need seating for 5? We just kept the hockey stick shape and can sit 4. Funny, 'cause my KD did almost the same thing with the big rounded end but we thought it was too much. Can you make the fridge counter depth? We did with two teenagers and it's plenty big enough. If you message me I will send pictures privately.

All that being said I would not ditch my table for a bigger island. We also have room for a table so the amount of seating really wasn't an issue for us. I wouldn't want the island to be the only place to eat, unless you use the dining room on a regular basis. Can't you turn the table the other way and still get a decent island in there? Good luck!

A second sink is probably less expensive than moving a load bearing wall (and way less disruptive during the remodel). I like the plan benjesbride posted a lot.

It gives you your large island (a desire I understand completely since it's a driving factor in our house design). It gets the refrigerator out of the walkway area. It gives you seating for five at the island (counter or bar height). It gives you a large prep area on the island, with a prep sink. There are lots of threads about 2nd sinks!

Other than the 2nd sink, what are your qualms about this plan? One of the problems is that you would like some conflicting things:

• Large kitchen
• Large island
• Single sink
• Sink close to refrigerator and cooktop
• Efficient work zones
• Seating for 5

I don't see anyway you can have all of these things, so something is going to have to give. Which of these are most important to you? Which of these, if you don't have, would make you not feel good about your new kitchen?

One more thing I'd like to add is that non-professionals are really bad at estimating costs. I do software requirements for a living and I've learned that I can't estimate how hard/easy something is going to be to build in software. (Hard/easy translates to money). I think something is going to be easy and the developers tell me why it's more complicated than I thought. I think something is going to be hard and the developers tell me that it's straightforward and no big deal. I've learned not to guess--I have to get the right team members together and ask.

My point is that when we say "I can't afford", unless we've gotten an estimate, we're guessing. How expensive is a second sink? I don't know. When I put a second sink in a hall bathroom when building my house (years ago, I admit), the extra plumbing and labor was $300. (I had to buy a sink and faucet, of course). Depending on what is under your kitchen,it might not be a big deal. How much is moving a load bearing wall? Do you want to give up dining room space?

Years ago, we re-did a bathroom in a house on a slab and moved the toilet--and it wasn't that big of a deal or that expensive, although the jackhammer was loud.

My point is that before discarding the 2nd sink because of cost, you might want to find out what that cost really is.

I like what BenjesBride posted as well. It seems to really meet the needs and wants that you've expressed - with the exception of the second sink.

Be aware that in most "large Kitchens", you usually need a second sink to avoid excessive distances b/w work zones and key appliances/fixtures.

Our second sink also wasn't very expensive - it was probably one of the cheapest things of our remodel!

BethOhio3 has very good points - please read them carefully.

In the benjesbride layout, couldn't you switch the cleanup sink with the range and then be able to eliminate the 2nd sink in the island?

Are you on a slab foundation? What about taking benjes plan and moving the clean up sink to island and then having the cooktop between two windows. The window replacing bay would be smaller. Another option is close up bay window and move fridge there. Both of these aren't as ideal as benjesbrides plan as you are giving up window size in exchange. You can also swap the sink and cooktop from her plan, again, requiring a change to the bay window.

doc5md, I hear what you are saying about the aisles. I was rather disappointed to see that. I think this KD was telling me what I wanted to hear rather than giving good design (according to all I have read on GW).

I think the large island is very visually appealing, if our floor plan accommodates it. It is where I envision my family gathering and my kids doing their school projects. I want it to accommodate five people because I don't want a kitchen table in that location since we have a dining room table adjacent to the space and can use it when we need a regular table.

I am not necessarily restricting us from other designs. However, we currently have a peninsula and I feel trapped when I am in my kitchen when my husband or kids are around. You know, one way in and one way out. Because of our walkway to our garage entrance, we can't do a true u-shape.

beenzmail, we do need seating for five. I will send you a message because I would love to see your photos. We probably will end of making the fridge counter depth. I hate spending the money since our current fridge isn't that old, but we may have to take the plunge and sacrifice something else. We will be eliminating that table because we have another one in our dining room and don't feel the need for both.

bethohio3, I have a fairly good idea of what the second sink would cost because of some other work we had done in our house about six months ago. We *may* be able to swing it but having a good idea of where this current design would fall price-wise, I am not sure it would trump (I am sick of that word, aren't you?) some of the other wish list items we have. But it is a possibility.

Regarding "Other than the 2nd sink, what are your qualms about this plan?"...

I think the long run of cabinets may be too long (and expensive). Also, the main sink would end of being one of the first things people see when they enter the front door. Unfortunately, in our household, dishes have the tendency to pile up and I would like to keep them out of sight as much as possible.

Here is the order of importance for the things you mentioned:

• Efficient work zones
• large island
• Sink close to refrigerator and cooktop
• Large kitchen
• Single sink

course411, we can't switch the range and cleanup sink because that would put the range under the window.

Lily'smom...totally agree about the island and that is what I am trying to figure out. Is it time to scrap the big island and try to find another layout?

Annie, just take out the bay and have the range flanked by two smaller windows. Solves all your issues and gets you a large island. It will be a nice focal point when you enter from front door

Martina · More Info

And here's what a clean up sink would look like in the bay

Does your floor plan say "unused office space"? If so, that's your mudroom, powder room, and laundry space to allow you to expand your kitchen without moving the load bearing wall, if for some reason you are hesitant to take out the bay window.