Would be absolutely fine!

Thanks, Carmen Grower. That's what I was hoping to hear. :o)

Yes - that would work and once the broth is chilled, you could skim off some of the fat if you so desire.

Teresa, good idea!! I hope it will turn out well, it sounds kinda gruesome to me to make bone broth. :O

Personally I don't even refrigerate. Just cover and shut the burner off at night and in the morning, bring to boil, continue boiling for a while, then resume simmering. This is what I do when making stuff like demi-glace that needs more than 1 waking day's simmering.

Okay, I know all the food safety folks will jump all over me. They say that food that has been unrefrigerated for over 2 hours should be thrown out and that reheating will not make it safe, and they apply this to stock too. Even the link I'm giving you below says that. Here is my reasoning. I'm not a food safety expert so you have to decide for yourself.

Prolonged temps above 160-170F (which is more than merely ''reheating'' usually involves) will kill most relevant bacteria. It won't necessarily kill toxins created by those bacteria when the food was in the so-called danger zone (40F to 140F). The most relevant one, for food safety purposes, seems to be the toxin from staphylococcus aureus. But staph is not intrinsically a food-borne bacteria, it usually comes from the skin of the person handling or processing the food. And the staph bacteria itself is killed by heat - the problem is if it is in the food long enough to produce the toxins that are heat-resistant. So, if you have clean hands when handling the bones (don't transfer staph), then get the bones into boiling water (kill any staph that is transferred), then don't introduce staph when the broth is below 140F or so (via dirty utensils, hands, etc), there is not much risk of staph-produced toxin contaminating the broth. Well, unless the bones were already contaminated with toxin before entering your freezer, but in that case it wouldn't matter if you refrigerated the stock-in-process or not.

I will say that when growing up in my culture (Chinese) it was perfectly common to leave food unrefrigerated overnight. Ducks and other meats are left hanging in Chinese food shops all the time. Maybe I have a tough stomach as a result. But, while this practice horrified SWMBO when we first met, and still does I think, after 20 years even her delicate Western tummy still has not suffered. I will also say that being 100% safe is one thing, being 99% safe is another, and when cooking for myself I find 99% good enough. If one were preparing food commercially, I'd think 100% would have to be the goal. Finally, when the broth is done, just enjoy a cup-ful - make some ramen, say. If there is a problem, you'll know before you use a gallon-ful to make holiday dinner.

The other option is to buy a cheap electric hotplate that you are willing to leave on all night. Maybe do it in the garage or even outside.

Note that putting 10 qts of 200F stock in a home refrigerator will raise the temp in the refrigerator to well above the desired 40F, and it will stay high for hours. Unlike commercial refrigerators, home refrigerators are not powerful enough to rapidly cool down large quantities of hot stuff. So, in pursuit of that last 1% safety for your stock, you would be risking spoliage of everything else in the refrigerator.

Here is a link that might be useful: More about staph and food

I use my electric nesco roaster for broth, I can roast the bones, add the liquid and vegetables or seasonings, usually carrots, celery, onion, bay leaf, salt and pepper, and then let it simmer. Sometimes I stick it out on the back porch or in the garage, sometimes I just leave it on the counter to simmer.

Works like a charm and I can turn it way, way down....

It's fine to refrigerate overnight and start again in the morning, though.

Annie

1. I would not leave a gas fire on unsupervised over night. You never know what could happen to the low flame. Electric, OK.

2. There is no problem to simmer all night long with low heat. With the cover on, you will not dry out the pot much.

3. A large pot will take a long time to cool down in the refrigerator and heat up everything else in your refrigerator, then it will take a lot of energy to get it boiling again.

4. A pressure cooker is the best and quickest way to make bone broth.

5. Pure bones do not have a lot of flavor. It's the meat around the bones that gives the most flavor. Bones give you a lot of fat from the marrow.

dcarch

I guess I was writing at the same time as John. I am in 100% agreement with John.

One more thing. A home refrigerator temperature adjustments between the freezer and refrigerator is very tricky. Depending on the model, some times it will take serveral days for the settings to be normal again once they have been upset by unusual situaltions.

dcarch

You can get great broth without cooking it overnight, especially if you feel uncomfortable with the long process or just plain don't have the time. But long cooking times certainly gives it great flavor.

A large batch of broth (as well as soup or chili) should be brought down to a safe temperature quickly before refrigerating it by sitting the stock pot in a sink (or other large container) filled with ice and water. Stir the contents of the stock pot frequently in order to keep the inside temperature cooling as well as the outside portion closest to the ice water. This is also the advised method for food safety.

When it's chilled, place it in small, shallow containers when transferring it to the refrigerator. Shallow containers will chill to a safe food temperature much faster. It's those large containers in a refrigerator where the temperature remains too warm at the inner-most portion of the container for too long that is the concern for food safety.

After I refrigerate the broth I remove the fat; then I like to slice the congealed broth into cubes which I place on a cookie sheet and quick-freeze. Then I place the broth "cubes" in Food-Saver bags. It's easy to remove any amount, small or large, as needed.

I generally do a 10- or 12-hour broth with good results. You may find the information and recipes at the link below helpful.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Broth is Beautiful

Gee, this is lot more complicated than I thought. Didn't even occur to me that all that stock would heat up the fridge contents. That's why I love asking questions on this forum. :o)
I think I will cool the broth in the pot for an hour or so, and then put the pot in some ice water in the sink. That should cool it down fast enough to where it does not heat up the fridge when I put it away for the night.

Grainlady, you posted while I was still writing!! :o) I am glad I was on the right track with the ice water. But I wouldn't have thought about stirring the broth, I would have just left it sitting in the sink for a while. Thanks for the additional info, and thanks for the link.
Also nice to read that it does not have to be simmered for quite as long as I've read. Do you add vinegar to your bones while simmering? The recipes I have suggest doing so because it helps extract minerals and other healthy stuff.

petra-

I add the vinegar for just the reasons you stated. I also save the fat to use outside for the birds.

One of the finer points I've read about making stock/broth... Once you have the roasted meaty bones, use cold water when you start to cook them. "As the ingredients warm in the water, their fibers open slowly, releasing their juices to add flavor. Off flavors can result if the broth is not skimmed."

Also important is to keep the broth/stock to a bare simmer throughout the cooking process. This will help maintain clarity.

If you want to clarify your stock:
2 quarts defatted stock
2 egg whites, lightly beaten

Add egg whites and bring to a boil, whisking with a wire whisk. When the stock begins to boil, stop whisking. Let boil for 3 to 5 minutes. A white foam, gradually becoming a spongy crust, will form on the surface. Turn the heat off, lift off the "crust" and strain the stock through a lined strainer (I use a coffee filter).

-Grainlady

Petra, I hope you plan to roast the bones first. Your broth will be much richer if you do.

Also, roast the onions, celery and carrots if you are adding them to your pot.

Once the meat and vegetables have been roasted add them to the stock pot and add your liquid.

Ann

Grainlady, thanks much for the additional tips. I didn't know about the cold water, I'll be sure to use that. Don't think I need to clarify as I am planning to freeze to make soups and sauces. But that's interesting about clarifying, I wonder how they figured out how to use egg whites for that purpose.

AnnT, yes, the recipes all specify to roast the bones and veggies at 400 until they brown.

Grainlady and Annie, great idea to use the fat for the birds. We usually buy suet cakes in the winter, so we already have the metal holders that could hold the beef fat. It'll have to stay in the freezer for a while yet though, it's still in lower 90's here, yuck.

I must agree with those who leave it out overnight. I know, I know, current food safety rules aside, I have been doing this for my whole life and have never made anybody sick.

If I were cooking for someone with a immune system problem or serious illness, I'd follow all the current rules, just to be absolutely safe. But I figure I'm ingesting far more harmful bacteria eating in restaurants and at street fairs than I ever would in my own, clean kitchen. I've seen how many times restaurant employees pick things up off the floor and use them. They routinely run their fingers through their hair, scratch themselves, sneeze into their hands (or all over everything), handle customers' dirty plates, use the restroom, come in and get started working right away, clean up dirty napkins and other tainted trash(dirty diapers!) from tables,handle filthy cash money, eat with their fingers as they work, wipe their hands & tables with filthy towels and aprons etc...all without washing their hands.

Sorry if I'm grossing people out, but it's nothing but fact. If restaurant employees stopped to wash their hands every time they are supposed to, according to health department rules, their hands would be bleeding by the end of a busy shift, and you'd never get your food. Now you see line cooks wearing plastic gloves,as if the gloves can't get just as filthy as hands. Filthier really, because they shield the employee from feeling like his hands are dirty which might just make him wash them.

No, if something is too hot to put into the fridge overnight, I leave it out and deal with it in the morning. I can't get worried about it.

^^ Ewwwwwwwwwwwww, we don't eat out frequently anyway, but after reading this, I am leaning toward NEVER AGAIN!!

Rachelellen - I couldn't agree with you more. I was in the food industry for a number of years, and I rarely eat out now.

And you're right about the handwashing. Have you ever looked at the hands of people working in a hospital? Their hands generally look very dry and sometimes chafed from all the washing they do.

Smear the bones w/ a little tomato paste. Kind of a cheat but adds flavour without any particular "tomato-ness" in the end result. I assume the reason has something to do w/ glutamates but anyway it works.

Another cheat is to crack or cut up the bones. Don't know if you want to go as far as bringing heavy beef bones to the bench vise in the garage, and no I don't have a bandsaw either, but if you're using something lighter (veal, poultry, etc) may be practical.

Everyone does what is comfortable to oneself.

I leave out soup, meat, and other food stuff overnight all the time, my entire life.

If I invite friends for a meal, I follow the strictest cleaning and preperation routines. I even have a powerful germicidal UV light to sanitize the entire kitchen.

As to cracking bones, I do the same. Your butcher may quickly saw cut them for you. I also use a hammer to crack bones. After making stock, the bones go into my garden shredder and get pulverized for the compost heap.

dcarch

I don't think you have to boil bones that long. Nice if you have time and want to reduce it to a thick broth. I boil bones for a 3-4 hours and get plenty of geletin out of them. Never strained out the blood and marrow that comes out. Pre-cooked bones I only boil an hour like the carcass of a smoked chicken. Once it is in the fridge there is enough geletin out of the bones to set everything up like jello... it melts when reheated.

Recipe this forum linked to called for 15lbs of beef bones, a pound of veal, and an old hen. We are all eating cheap weak quickie broth!

Bunnyman, from what I've read in the recipes, the longer you simmer the bones, the more nutritious stuff like minerals and potassium and such you get out of them. That's also why they recommend adding the vinegar, to help extract all of that. I figure might as well go for the minerals if I am going to be domestic and make broth. :o)

Bone broth, as opposed to regular broth made from bones, does indeed have to be simmered for a very long time. The point is to get the minerals to leach out of the bones into the broth. It is not merely an ingredient one would use in cooking, but a tonic with specific qualities believed to support health.

I use a crock pot and simmer for 24 hours with a splash of vinegar. I occasionally drink a cup for breakfast. It is insanely satiating.

There is a physician I work with who had been confined to a wheelchair due to MS. No conventional treatments would help her, because 'nothing' reverses MS. She did a lot of research into supportive nutrition, and designed and adopted a diet which, along with physical therapy, actually reversed her MS! I would not have believed it if i didn't see her walk into a meeting one day after years of seeing her arrive in a wheelchair. She can ride a bike now. Bone broth (not simply broth) is a central feature in the diet she advocates. (Currently there is a pilot study starting up here to try this in more patients)

Bone broth is good stuff!

greenmulberry - do you know what the rest of the diet consists of? My 28 year old niece discovered in the last year that she has MS.

I make bone broth all the time in my Hamilton Beach crock pot - roast bones first then in crock pot for 48 hours - very nourishing and flavorful.

And I too am one that leaves food out all the time and never get sick. I also eat stuff that's been in the fridge for a long time, too.

greenmulberry's post about the health benefits of bone broth is really interesting. I read a bit and apparently it is said to be good for joint conditions too, in particular the gelatin in the broth. If anyone knows more, I'd love to hear. (As I sit here downing another colchicine tablet for my ankle.)

I've mentioned this before, more than once, but in Asian meat stores you can buy cow tendons, pig's feet, all sorts of cartilagenous bits that one wouldn't normally think of eating, for $2/lb. 1 lb of this in the stockpot will break down into lots of gelatin. More, and you can make a broth that sets at room temperature. You discard the remains along with the bones, so no need to actually eat Wilbur's big toe. Chicken feet and oxtail do the same but people actually eat them so they cost more.

Yes, I leave mine out overnight too, although I don't worry about leaving a very large pot on low all night. If the low heat setting has the broth cooking too fast for me I have plenty of heat diffusers, and put one or two under the pot. I love heat diffusers. I have some modern ones that are cast iron, very nice. I'd much rather leave the pot out overnight, off the heat, than put anything in the refrigerator while still too hot/warm. In restaurants I've seen soooo many people put stock pots in the walk in when too hot and come back in the morning and it's turned sour. Ever had a soup that tastes a bit sour in a restaurant? Put away too hot.

I think if I were going to make the bone broth, which sounds like a good idea, I'd have to make it in a Nesco or some type of crock pot to save fuel. That long on the stove just gives me palpitations at the energy cost.

Good info about the pull down capacity of a home fridge. It just isn't there.

I'm a fan of entry level commercial equipment used in the home. Its big, bulky and sometimes noisy but it works forever. So I have pretty large stock pots.

I keep litre pop bottles, frozen full of water on hand. Whenever I have a stock, stew or some such that needs cooling I buy a couple of bags of ice, fill the sink, plop in the pot and drop in a frozen bottle or two. Stir, replace bottles as needed, stir. We use a dilute bleach/water spray in the kitchen, so I just grab a fresh bar wipe, spritz the bottle and wipe it and pop them in. They last a good long time, which is good as we don't use litre bottles of pop very often.

I can pull down my largest stock pot full of chili or stew in a half hour or so, stock takes a bit longer for some reason, but well under an hour.

Johnliu, I so miss living close enough to Chinatown to shop there regularly. The meats and seafoods are so good, and there is such a variety. Sigh...fresh, whole fish. I remember taking a friend once, who'd never shopped there, and seeing her face when we went to the back of one store and she got a look at the "specialty meat" counter. A tray of pig snouts first caught her eye, all nostrils aligned and pointing up. Then a tray of bull's penis. The pigs ears and the various piles of innards didn't even phase her after those, LOL.

I loved the stocks I made back then. :)

I have never made a bone stock though...I'm going to have to try.

I'm another who would be interested in any info on that diet, as I've a friend with MS.

Yes, rachelellen, Asian food stores are great.

The only thing is, I'm increasingly distrustful of the fish in my local Asian markets. I look at the rows of whole fish on ice and wonder, hmm, which of these was raised in a dirty antibiotic-filled fish farm in China, frozen, and shipped over here to thaw and sell? I already tend to avoid frozen fish and shellfish that was processed in China (or Vietnam, or . . . ) Nowadays I look at the tanks of live fish and start to wonder, what might they be dumping in those tanks to keep the fish alive? I do not have any facts to support that worry, so I sometimes buy the fish anyway. I'm increasingly trying to buy fresh, local-caught, local-raised, or at least US-caught/raised fish. But, wow, local halibut fillets at $25/lb or whole fish in Chinatown at $5/lb.

Sigh. I wish I wasn't so distrustful of Chinese environmental and food safety standards. Since I am Chinese by ethnicity (but born in NYC, yo), it kind of makes me a self-hater. But then again, even Chinese living in China don't trust their local companies.

I don't have any problem with the meat in Asian stores. They aren't shipping pigs and cows over from Asia.

I will say that it is surprisingly hard to find really good fish in Portland. For me, anyway. Sometimes I'm reduced to going to the Japanese stores and buying the sashimi-grade stuff. And telling myself that my diet wants me to stick to 6 oz portions anyway.

I don't think that makes you any kind of self-hater. You aren't distrustful of Chinese people, you're distrustful of a country's safety standards because you've reason to be...that the people living in that country share your ethnicity is coincidence. If Zimbabwe had similar safety standards (or lack thereof), you'd be distrustful of Zimbabwean (wow, I just winged that spelling, and spell check didn't object!)market fish as well.

For myself, I don't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I'm healthy and fit, I don't think a fish dinner or two, poop pond raised or not, is going to kill me. Anyway, you're pretty safe with Rock Cod (my FAV for steaming) as it's so abundantly caught along the CA coast that I doubt they buy it from China. In fact, years ago, I had a fisher buddy who used to go catch it and then sell it to the markets by the back door, and he wasn't the only one. Yeah, so it wasn't inspected...I'd eat it if I caught it!

(Sorry folks, for hijacking the bone broth thread!)

To get it back on topic...sort of...

Does anyone make pork stock? I've never seen a recipe for it and wondered. I've never tried, myself. But I do make several pork dishes in which I use stock, and generally I mix chicken and beef half and half for them. But pork ribs go on sale hereabouts fairly regularly and they would make a great stock I should think. Unless, does pork stock get just too darn strong?

1. Re. long simmering energy use: In the winter time, every BTU/watt used is kept inside to warm your house. Nothing wasted. If you want to save money in the summer time, use flame retardant fabric, sew an insulated pot cover/warmer to put on the pot. Make sure the bottom is far enough from the fire.

2. Re. Chinese food safety: The longest world life span/expectancy is around Macao, Hong Kong, and Singapore where 100% of the food source is from China.

3. Re: Bone Broth and MS: Yes, there is talk that bone broth may be beneficial.
Also, you may want to think about this: A few years ago I traveled to China; I was shown to make bone broth with seaweed. It was delicious. I do that all the time now. There is also talk that in Japan, there are very few MS cases. Some believe that may be because they eat a lot of seaweed.

dcarch

What a Really Good thread !! Thanks to "johnliu" and "grainlady" and also to everyone else that has contributed.

Am saving John's and Grainlady's posts to my file on Broths & Soups !

Well, I got up early, roasted everything, and it is simmering as I write this. Grainlady, I followed your advice and added cold water. It has been on for less than 2 hours, but smells good already.
Green Mulberry, that is so interesting. Do you know what else she adds to the broth, any vegetables or herbs, or just the bones?

I guess I never thought of it as "pork stock" but boiling a ham bone is just that. A favorite soup is boiled ham bone, cabbage, onion, and a couple jalapeno/serreno peppers.... high taste, high fiber, and low cal. I get a ham from work at winter solstice every year... being single that makes a good 3-4 pots of soup with a couple sandwiches on the side. Grandma's traditional christmas gift to us is a ham... another 10 lbs on top of my work ham. In general I'm eating soup until the first of April.

Almost all bean based soups have some pork broth.... sometimes I cheat and use a couple drops of liquid smoke rather then meat.

Only use pork with large bones. I boiled pork chops with sourkraut one time... while delicious it was filled with the small bones. About time I made pork with kraut and taters again.

Now I'm hungry!

: )
lyra

I too have made ham stock with the remains of a holiday ham. Not too strong, very tasty, nice substitute for chicken stock in some soups (hot and sour, etc). It is the other white meat after all.

I save my pork bones (steaks, roasts, etc.) in the freezer and just toss them in with the beef for stock.

Smoked hocks and ham bones go in beans!

I love to use my crockpot for stock, but wish it was much larger! I still do it, just in smaller amounts.

Deanna

teresa, the Dr's. name is Terry Wahls. http://www.terrywahls.org/

Her diet is very heavy in leafy dark green veggies, emphasizes variety of veggies, and also includes things like liver, and the bone broth, no dairy. we always joke that she eats 6 cups of kale a day, but I think she comes close to that. Also, no dairy. she says dairy causes a return of her symptoms.

I went to a party she had (I was helping her with her research study) and she typically uses the broth in soups. Onion soup is a regular feature in her menu, apparently onions have some good properties that make them worthwhile to eat in quantity.

I think she does have some books for sale, but I just want to say she never had anything for sale until people started clamoring for more information. So she isn't into this to hawk her wares.

Thanks Mulberry! I'll pass it along to my sister and her daughter.

Does anyone know the water to bones ratio? Also how much vinegar. I have a lot of bones (from 1/2 a beef). Thanks.

countrygal -

I'll reference the same link I did above. It will give you a good general reference, as well as other information you need....

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Broth is Beautiful

grainlady - Thanks. Sorry, I should have checked that out before.