Brenda -

There are many good HE deterents out there, but if you are looking for a good all-around detergent for use on light or dark colors, I would recommend trying Sears Ultra Plus HE. They used to have a Free & Clear version, but I'm not sure if they still carry it. I have the "Stain Fighting Formula", which is not unscented but it has a very light scent that you can't detect on the laundry once it's finished. Though it is VERY DIFFICULT to find a detergent that does not contain ANY optical brighteners, the Sears detergents use much less than your "top-shelf" powders such as Tide and most other store brands.

As far as your concerns on water softeners, you will find them in both powders and liquids, so that should not be a concern. Liquids, however, tend to be quite sudsy (even those labeled "HE"), especially in soft water. Liquids, when used exclusively, can also cause build up in your machine - especially when only lower water temperatures are used.

What do you currently use for whites? Do you use liquid chlorine bleach? If you don't use bleach and want to have bright whites, I would recommend adding some Oxiclean to your white load and increasing the water temperature a bit. Your Duet 9400 has a great internal heater, which when used with a quality detergent, will give you brilliantly clean and bright whites without the use of harsh chlorine bleach.

Good luck and let us know if there is anything we can do to help!

Tex

Tex,
Thanks for your reply. I do have one question with cold water washing. Will the powder detergents dissolve well? Even when I wash clothes now that call for cold water, I make it more tepid for better cleaning. With so little water being used in the FLs, I wonder if HE powders are a problem in cold.

That will all depend on how "cold" your cold is. Here in Texas, only in the dead of winter is our water almost "freezing". Essentially, your water needs to be 80*F for your powder detergent to work properly. The Duet 9400 does have ATC (automatic temperature control), which mixes in a bit of hot water from the other tap to get a "controlled cold", which should be warm enough to dissolve your detergent and allow it to work properly.

If you try this and don't feel like it's working the best for you, then you may want to try some liquid Tide HE Free & Clear and try it on your cold loads. If you start with using much less than the recommended dosage, you may not develop oversudsing.

Tex

You might want to try Cheer powder which, IIRC, is without optical brightenrs. It comes in a scent-free version which some other users have reported works well.

Neither the reg. Cheer powder or the scent-free version are "official" HE products, but both are low-sudsing so they are quite compatible with Fl machines.

Whatever product you choose to begin with, try measuring it out in tablespoons full (1 to 3) at first until you get squared away. FLs use considerably less detergent than TL machines and their washing peformance is actually degraded if you use too much detergent. Less is definitely more in FL world.

Molly~

I appreciate all your comments on the detergent. I am really looking forward to using the new Duet next weekend, but I know there is a learning curve.

I have never purchased HE products for my washer. I use very, very little in it and have never had a problem.

As for powder, I have never seen any clumps or had any problems with it disolving in my wash. Everything has come out great.

Enjoy your new toys!! :)

You might want to try some of the environmentally friendly products that are also low sudsing. Do you have a Whole Foods market in your area? You can also find these products on line and some health food stores. They come unscented and scented.

Tide HE
Gain HE
Cheer HE
Wisk HE
All HE
Purex HE
Arm Hammer HE
Sears HE
Quixtar Amway HE
Use no less than 1/4 cup of soap!
Tide HE Free Clear
All HE Free Clear
Sears HE Free Clear
Quixtar Amway HE Free Clear

Hi,

I wonder if anyone is using Melaleuca MelaPower laundry detergent in their HE machines? I know itÂs very low foam in a TL, but I am not sure about the FL's.

Here is a nice beginner guide for those of us who are new to the HE - FL world.

http://www.cleaning101.com/laundry/HE.pdf

Our 13 year old Kenmore TL has just died on us and the cost of the motor itself may justify replacing it for a HE model as we are on a private well.

Can anyone tell me about Gain HE powder? I have used a box of Tide HE & presently have Sears Stain Fighter HE and both seem good. I got the Tide before my Fl was delivered and had to run all over looking for it, as my grocery store only carries liquid HE. I like the powder in the FL with the dispenser and have had no problem with it disolving. I ran to Walmart last week hoping to find any kind of HE powder and they had none. In fact they have less powder than my grocery. Found Tide and Gain HE at an online retailer and with free shipping & a $10 discount I got a case (4/31 load boxes) of each for less than I paid in the store. I decided to try Gain w/ the Tide for something different. Gain says the HE is the original scent. I am already tired of searching for powders around here. To the original poster, I too only used a free & clear detergent in my TL,because of the strong smell of Tide liquid etc. Even with the Tide HE which smells pretty strong in the box, my laundry comes out with barely a scent. I did use Downy, but have picked up a bottle of Fresh Start softener which seems much less gooey. Does everyone have a tough time getting powder? Thanks.

environmentally friendly products that are also low sudsing

The problem with many of these is that by the time you use enough to match the cleaning power of most mainstream detergents, they are neither low-sudsing nor environmentally friendly.

Barrybud, we've discussed melaleuca before on this forum now and again, but mainly in the context of the aggressive MLM marketing they use. However, I would be leery of a plant oil based detergent in a FL, as it might provide sustenance for mold and other biofilm. - DR

With the purchse of the Duet 9400, I am going from a TL to a FL washer. I have seen more than one recommendation that said the first time clothes were washed in the FL, use no detergent since there would probably be plenty of residue detergent left from the old TL. How many of you who switched from a TL to a FL stuck with this advice?

Our new Duet 9400 - our first FL also - is coming this week, too, so I am very interested in this discussion. I read in some other threads that the use of STPP was recommended where allowed. Would this just be for whites? Should it be used with an HE detergent that has optical brighteners, or is it only needed for detergents that don't have the brighteners? Also, is it added to the same amount of detergent you would usually use in your FL, or, does it substitute for a portion of the detergent?

Thanks,

Susan

Barrybud,
NO--I do NOT recommend MelaPower in an HE machine. I love Melaleuca products, but this detergent is about the HIGHEST SUDSING one I have ever tried. And, when I had a normal top-loader machine, I still had to use less than half the recommended dose of MelaPower because my water was soft.
Andrea

I purchased Tide Cold Water detergent (liquid). I had a water softener installed. It is my understanding that the water softener recommends using less detergent, soap, etc. The instructions on the bottle of Tide show fill lines for the amount for a medium sized load and a full-sized load. Should I reduce them somewhat so it doesn't get so sudsy? If so, how much? Thanks. I check Tide website, and there is no way to contact them via the site unless you register., etc. Too much bother for a simple answer.

Gosh, this doesn't have to be so hard. Just use the lesser amount of detergent and see what happens. Not clean enough? Then add more next time. Too much suds? Use less. The correct detergent dosage (and product) is the one that works well in your water, in your machine with the kind of stuff and dirt you have to wash. Since all that is lost is the annoyance of messing up a single load of wash, it isn't a big deal if you get it wrong.

If you are surprised by an unexpected, or alarming, amount of suds and you think it's causing the machine to wash improperly an emergency fix is stop the machine, grate up a tablespoon of so of bar soap, put it in the detergent hatch along with a quart of water to wash it down and restart the machine. This will quell the suds at once and you can continue on the cycle. It isn't a good way to handle it on a long-term basis, but it's excellent first aid for a load with too many bubbles.

Molly~

i have commented on this before, but speaking with industry insiders they recommend "UNILEVER" Brands such as ALL also there is not much truth to the dry vs liquid argument about one containing additives..unilever holds the original patent to HE detergent in which most HE laundry products were designed. In order for Tide, proctor and gamble and other brands to produce HE detergent "they (the competition) have to add additives to the formula so they do not impose on copyright infringements of UNILEVER....thus I would recommend ALL or a brand of UNilever you are most comfortable with. Another thing about HE detergent regardless of brand, use less that they recommend, after all they want you to use it up quickly to by more...here is a test if you use the recommended amount run the machine the next load without detergent, if you see suds you had too much the load before...you should not have suds...these means your clothes more than likely has suds still in them when you placed them in the dryer.

Laundrytech

What is an industry insider?

I remember many many years ago my mother used to use DASH in our top loader, then in our front loader. She liked it because it was low sudsing. I don't know who made it. Was this made by the company that is now called UNILEVER?

Also wondering if the UNILEVER patent applies in Europe since I think UNILEVER is based from there. Would this mean that detergents made in Europe would also have to use additives so as to not not infringe?

In order for Tide, proctor and gamble and other brands to produce HE detergent "they (the competition) have to add additives to the formula so they do not impose on copyright infringements of UNILEVER....

I have a number of problems with this one. First of all Tide and most all other P&G laundry detergents have enzymes in it which Unilever does not with the exception of Wisk. All does not. Enzymes are well known to aid in cleaning. To not have these "additives" is not necessarily the best in the way of performance. Additives are not in and of themselves bad.

IMO if P&G needed to change what it wanted to do to their detriment, they'd simply buy out Unilever and avoid the problem altogether. It'd be a very minor purchase if such were the case. Unilever is a puppy by comparison in the detergent market. If memory serves correctly, Tide is something like 60% of the laundry detergent market, by itself to say nothing of Cheer, Gain, Dreft, Ivory, etc.

It would have to be a patent infringement rather than copyright (not trying to be nitpicky, but for the sake of accuracy) and I doubt they would be forced to add something. I would think it would simply have to be a different formula. Maxwell House has their formula. This doesn't mean that Folgers must put in additives to avoid infringements, just be a different formula. Not all that difficult. What's difficult could be getting the formula to be and do what you want.

What's in the patent anyway? I'd be curious to see it. Seems to me there's a number of ways to gain a "High Efficiency" formula. AFAIK there is no real standard for it anyway is there? So I'm skeptical if Unilever owns the rights to HE.

I could be totally wrong on this whole thing, but I'm skeptical of this claim. Just wondering if they happened to be Unilever "insiders"? LOL Just kidding... Well, sort of.

I am very sceptical as well about Unilever holding an HE detergent patent. I am not sure about the American market, but I have never seen the 'HE' logo on any of the European laundry detergents. The technology of FLs is not new at all. Europe has used FLs or H-axis TLs for over 50 years and these washers became increasingly efficient. All the detergents you can buy in Europe are suitable for FLs, so I guess you could call all of them HE detergents. They all use some fillers and additives. Similar to medicine - detergents also have active and inactive ingredients and additives with various functions. Enzymes, water softeners and perfumes are just some of the 'good' additives.

cynic,
I have to disagree with you on the size and market share of Unilever. P&G could not just go ahead and buy Unilever. It is one of their major competitors. Unilever is much bigger than you may think. They actually have the right to make Persil in certain countries including the UK. Don't just focus on the US market, Unilever is a European based company. To compare the market share you'd have to do so globally.

Here is an interesting article about HE detergents. I find it pretty amusing that they claim that HE washers and detergents have been developed 'over the past few years' by home appliance engineers and detergent scientists...;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: High Efficiency Washers and Detergents

I've become a huge fan of Method brand cleaning supplies. None of them contain animal ingredients or are tested on animals (which is very important to me). I really like their HE detergents and that the fabric softener doesn't cause mildew to grow in the dispenser the way Downey did.

looser, I was speaking of the US market and I have to disagree with you on the global requirement. "Market" by nature is broken down. I was referring to the US market, though I didn't say specifically and to try to speak globally is difficult. My point is, and I stand by it, that if P&G wanted to sell "All" it would be a minor purchase for them. They're big enough to get it. And All is not a truly "big seller" by market share in the US or worldwide. I'm not suggesting that Unilever is a small company, rather that the detergent market they have here isn't that big and just like when RJ Reynolds bought the Butterfinger candy brand, they soon sold it to someone more into the candy field. Unilever would probably be very willing to sell off that brand if the offer was made, just as if Unilever (being big enough) were to make an offer to buy Dreft or Ivory Snow brand, P&G would likely sell it. It's total speculation and not something that can be proven so I'm not trying to make an argument. Rather just offer a humble opinion.

The other point about comparing globally, then you would have to take into account the other brands, such as Arial, Daz, etc. Different brands are marketed differently in different areas. And having the right to make something is tenuous at best. That can change rather easily. And though there's many loyal Persil fans, again, in the US, Persil isn't something that the average grocery store will sell, since it doesn't have the market share here. I can't address whether it's a big player in Europe. Different market.

FWIW, I tried to get some quick stats on market shares mostly to satisfy my own curiosity. (I am the curious type!) Tough to get! LOL But the one I looked at suggested that the 60% figure is likely total P&G US sales to include Cheer, Gain, etc, and as I think back somehow 40% rings a bell which would sound about right. 40 for Tide and another 20% for the other brands. The one quoted year 2000 figures as:

Brand/Manufacturer /Market Share 2000
Tide Procter & Gamble 34.8%
Gain Procter & Gamble 11.8%
Cheer Procter & Gamble 8.4%
Ultra Tide with bleach Procter & Gamble 5.4%
Surf Unilever 4.3%
Tide Free Procter & Gamble 3.8%
Arm & Hammer Church & Dwight 3.6%
Ultra Surf Unilever 2.7%
Private label brands 2.6%
Wisk Unilever 2.4%

The Wisk surprised me. I thought that would be the Unilever flagship brand. But again, these are OLD numbers and clearly not a complete list so the number could be skewed depending on what their point was. BTW, I make no representation as to the reliability of the site used nor the accuracy of their figures.

After a much longer post than intended (!) I guess I am still curious as to the veracity of the previously mentioned industry insider. I'm still skeptical on those claims.

Happy laundering all, er, everybody!

Here is a link that might be useful: Not my #s - here's the source I used...

cynic,
I agree with you that either P&G could buy Unilever's U.S. detergents segment or the rights to market their detergents, but I don't believe that Unilever is willing to sell it. I don't doubt at all that P&G has a much larger market share in the U.S. than the other manufacturers combined.
And I am all for that since we own some stock in P&G...;-)

However, I think it is still very profitable for Unilever to sell their detergents here as well. I am almost certain that they don't have to do any additional R&D just for this country, so they just have to produce, package and sell something that is probably not too difficult to make. The marketing done by Unilever for their laundry detergents is not nearly as aggressive (and expensive) as P&G's campaigns. I think they are doing just fine by co-existing. As a consumer, I don't want all my options regarding any type of product to be made by a single company. Competition is a good thing.

HE detergents are different from traditional detergents, but I don't think that there are any meaningful differences in the patenting of certain ingredients. HE or not, detergents with enzymes are better able to remove food stains and I am happy that P&G adds them!