Still having bread probs...Over or underkneaded?

13 years ago

I have had SUCH good luck with bread for years now, but now NOT. We discussed this in another thread, and came to the conclusion that my current batch of Prairie Gold wheat berries may not have enough protein.

Today I made sure to add vital wheat gluten and dough enhancer, which as ascorbic acid, among other things. I used freshly milled flour, made from my usual combo of 5 cups Prairie Gold wheat and 3 cups spelt. I also add 2 c. freshly cracked mixed grains. I add flour to the recipe (tried and true for several years) just until the dough no longer sticks to the sides of the bowl of my Bosch bread mixer to keep from adding too much flour, then knead 7 - 8 minutes.

When finished kneading today, even though it wasn't sticking to the sides of the bowl, it felt sticky and didn't want to keep its shape. I would usually guess that it didn't have enough flour and didn't get kneaded enough, but with the advice I got last discussion, I'm not sure if it's that, or if it was overworked.

I'm sure it's an elementary problem and solution, but I feel that I tripped onto making good bread, and now that it isn't working, have no knowledge from which to draw for fixing it. I feel like using a mix of flours that includes all-purpose flour would probably solve the problem, but I don't want to go back to that, but keep making whole grain bread for my family.

This is what my bread usually looks like:

This is today's sorry batch, which I'm ashamed to show. Just cut it...Crumbly, soft... and more like cake than bread?:

Thanks so much!

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Comments (14)

gldno1
13 years ago
I will be following this closely. I have no solution, but know how you feel. Since I started adding enhancer to my dough, I have a good high rise.

Now I am worried about the wheat berries you refer to. My plan is to buy a grinder and the berries this fall to have fresh flour. I hate to spend that kind of money if this can be an issue.

Hope some serious bread makers will chime in here.

glenda
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
Glenda, I still would encourage you to get the grinder and berries. I LOVE making bread with fresh flour, and have had years of success of making it weekly or more. I'm sure the wise ones here will help me figure this out, and then you and I will both know what to do when/if we encounter it again. :-)
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1. This is as good as my presentation on making whole wheat bread gets. Realistically, I'm unable to put what I present as an all-day workshop as a post on a message board about how to make 100% whole wheat loaves. I teach information about the grain, milling, and bread making. The details are important - at least I think so, but I will add these sources and tips FYI. 2. Soaked flour method is found in the book, "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon with Mary G. Enig, Ph.D. I use a modified version of this. 3. Retarding dough is a method where you "park" the dough in the refrigerator. This essentially stretches the time allowed for fermentation which helps develop the flavor during the primary (or bulk) fermentation. The final proofing stage is when the dough develops lightness and texture. The longer fermentation breaks down the whole wheat flour which also helps make a lighter loaf. 4. I never add vital wheat gluten to 100% whole wheat bread, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to do so. I just happen to know the type of wheat I use has a fairly high protein level that will make excellent yeast breads. I also mill a fine grind of flour (coarse flour = coarse bread). The finer the flour, the smaller the shreds of bran and the higher the gluten level. You can also sift the large shreds of bran out of flour. Use it as a topping on the loaf. Adding too much vital wheat gluten will cause the bread to be tough. It also takes longer to develop gluten in breads with high-gluten levels. I've worked with 16% protein wheat and all that additional protein only means more time kneading....so more is not necessarily better. The only time I add vital wheat gluten is if I'm using a large amount of low-gluten flour, such as barley, oat, or rye. 5. As pointed out in "CookWise" (by Shirley O. Corriher), "Give ten bakers the same flour, yeast, salt, and water and have them make bread with just these ingredients and they will make ten different loaves of bread." I'd suggest reading the first 100 pages of "CookWise" for a lot of general information concerning all kinds of yeast/sourdough bread information. I make bread no one else makes using unusual ingredients. I use bits and pieces of information from a wide source of "experts". I change what I'm doing when I read new information I think will make better bread. Not all methods work for all people for a lot of reasons. Mostly time is the factor. 6. There are three basic methods for making bread - straight dough (aka direct-mix), sponge (aka pre-ferment), or sourdough. 7. The straight dough method is a modern method based on modern commercial flour, yeast, and quick mixing methods. This method is fine for most modern (white) breads, but you'll get better whole wheat bread using the other two methods. 8. Sponge/pre-ferments come in a wide variety of methods. I'd suggest checking out a copy of "Crust & Crumb" by Peter Reinhart for more information. 9. Sourdough is also a method that takes a lot more time than than the straight dough method. 10. BREAD MACHINE BREAD Luisa Perkins of Cold Spring, New York, has supplied us with the following soaked recipe for a bread machine. She uses a Zojirushi bread machine (available from the King Arthur flour company), which has a "homemade" cycle. 1 cup purified water 3/4 cup homemade whey 5 cups freshly ground hard wheat flour, preferably white wheat, not red 3 tablespoons Rapadura or Sucanat 4 tablespoons lard or butter 2 teaspoons sea salt 2 teaspoons yeast (SAF brand recommended) Put the water, whey and flour into the bread machine loaf pan. Set the homemade cycle to the maximum time allowed on preheat and rise cycles--this should be at least 6 hours. The baking time should be set to zero. After preheating and kneading, the dough has about 6 hours at about 100 degrees. Add the remaining ingredients and set the machine to the wheat cycle, which should be another 3 hours at least. The two cycles together give the dough more than seven hours for the whey to do its work. The bread comes out nicely browned, risen to the top of the loaf pan and flat on top. It has a good, even structure and texture. If you start in the morning, the bread is finished by early evening and will be cooled off and ready to eat the following morning. Makes a 2-pound loaf. (Source: http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/sourdough_egg_noodles.html - towards the end of the page) 11. Another good method is called a two-stage method by Sue Gregg (www.suegregg.com). This includes an overnight soak/sponge. 12. I use an overnight sponge in my bread machine and mix the dough the next day on the dough cycle which is similar to the recipe above. This is one example of what I do for lighter 100% whole wheat bread. 3/4 c. (homemade) kefir 3/4 c. barely warm water 2-1/2 c. freshly-milled Prairie Gold Spring Hard White Wheat 1/4 t. ascorbic acid powder 2 t. SAF Instant yeast Add to the sponge the next morning: 1/3 c. agave nectar 1 egg approx. 2-1/4 c. freshly milled whole wheat flour (you may have to adjust hydration during mixing/kneading) 3 T. coconut oil - I add fat late in the mixing along with 2 t. salt - AFTER the gluten has developed. * There's a science about when to add the fat and the salt (see: "CookWise" for this information). If you want a loaf that has a cake-like crumb (close-grain) and that also yields a shorter loaf, then add the fat and salt early in the mixing. If you want more loft and an open crumb, add the fat/salt late in the mixing - after the gluten is developed. Adding the salt late also makes kneading easier. Once salt is added, the gluten strands really tighten up. 13. Don't add ascorbic acid when making sourdough breads. They are already acidic enough. -Grainlady
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FYI... 'Experts' indicate the ideal temperature range for a mixed dough is usually 76 to 80F. Peter Reinhart states in "Crust and Crumb" that "dough temperature increases about one degree per every minute of kneading or two degrees per minute if kneading in a medium-speed mixer. Jeffrey Hamelman ("BREAD" A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes): "For the most part, the temperature zone that works best, particularly for wheat-based breads, is 75Â° to 78Â°F." To complicate things even more, there is a whole set of calculations you can use to figure your dough temperature based on the type of mixing method you use (straight dough or pre-ferment), as well as ambient room temperature, flour temperature, etc... If you use a straight dough method and you want your dough to be 76Â°F you multiply 76 by 3; if there is a pre-ferment method used (which I suggest using for freshly-milled flour) multiply 76 by 4. Examples... Using the straight dough method: 76Â°F x 3 = 228Â° (Total temperature factor) Minus flour temperature - 72Â°F Minus room temperature - 68Â°F Minus friction factor - 26Â°F = Water temperature 62Â°F For the straight dough, water at 62Â°F gives us a final dough temperature of approximately 76Â°F. Pre-ferment: 78Â°F x 4 = 304Â°F Minus flour temperature - 72Â°F Minus room temperature - 68Â°F Minus pre-ferment temperature - 70Â°F Minus friction factor - 26Â°F = Water temperature - 68Â°F Friction Factor: For doughs that mix for 3 minutes on first speed and 3 or 4 minutes on second, the friction factor for most mixers is in the range of 24Â° to 28Â°F. "Factors that affect the amount of friction generated during mixing, such as the type of mixer being used (stand, spiral, oblique, or planetary), the length of mix time, the mixing speeds used, and the quantity of dough in the bowl." ------------------------------------------------------- If you work the dough too long and hard in the mixer, the gluten can begin to break apart, so check gluten development by doing a windowpane (or membrane) test. If the dough is stringy and stretchy and sticks to your hands, the dough is probably over-mixed and broken. This isn't the same thing as being too wet. If the dough tears, instead of having an elastic texture, the most common reason for this is under-mixing the dough. ----------------------------------------------------- Another possibility... There is a substance in wheat germ called Glutathione, which breaks down the gluten. By adding an acidic ingredient (ascorbic acid, lemon juice, vinegar) to whole wheat yeast breads, it will counteract the negative effects of Glutathione. I use 1/8 t. ascorbic acid per loaf for this purpose. Ascorbic acid (aka vitamin C) not only helps prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down; but it will help repair gluten bonds that have already been broken. Ascorbic acid also helps sustain the leavening of bread loaves during baking and promotes yeast growth so the yeast works longer and faster. -------------------------------------------------- When the top crust separates (shelling): -the dough was over-mixed -top dried out during rising (use plastic wrap instead of a towel) -oven temperature too low -too much yeast in the recipe -------------------------------------------------------- You may want to do a protein test on your wheat - it can be lower or higher in protein than what you are accustomed to using. I've found this true with Prairie Gold wheat, which I've used a lot of over the years. The local hard white winter wheat I purchase I also know the protein level (13.1%). This is the same wheat King Arthur Flour has milled into their Whole White Wheat Flour, so they have strict protein standards. I've worked with wheat that had 16% protein, and you have to do a LOT more kneading to develop that much protein. How to check protein level: Measure 2 cups plus 1-T. flour (measure by scooping a dry measuring cup into the flour, filling it, and slightly packing the flour as you level it off against the side of the flour container). Add it to a food processor with the steel knife. Add 1-cup of water. Process for about 30 seconds. If your flour is high protein (somewhere around 13-14%) it will absorb 1 cup of water producing a sticky dough ball when processed for 30-seconds in the workbowl of a food processor with the steel knife. If the dough ball looks somewhat "loose", then you may need to add vital wheat gluten to the flour to increase the protein, or reduce the mixing time and see if you get better results. Hope there is something there that helps you out... ~Grainlady
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Yes to the salt. It can be surprising how much it wants. The wheat should be great. I use Palouse for pizza, and did my last loaf of bread before things went to h*ll with it. I'll tell you, the protein content is the best I've gotten and I had many fewer issues coaxing a good loaf out of it than the Arrowhead Mills they have at the local store, which I'd been using. Do you soak your flour? One thing to keep in mind with whole wheat, especially home milled, is that the gluten will break as it's handled after the rise. Handle it as little as possible. I've never seen 100% whole wheat with a lacy crumb like Ann T likes. If you figure out how to make it work, please share! Another thing to keep in mind about 100% whole wheat is that if it rises to double it's overrisen. 1.5x-1.75x is right. Otherwise, the gluten starts to tear and you don't get your shaped rise or oven spring. I wish I could remember my crust conclusions. I know my pizza stone (which has its own electric element and is very different from most) was getting it too hot, and it was hard and thick. I changed to a steel in the middle of the oven, which gave me a much better crust, but possibly less spring. Whatever. I just want to reach in and devour that slice of bread! We've been dealing with store bought and suffering... Your bread looks delicious!
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When dough has good structure before proofing and poor/no structure after proofing, it is over proofed. The yeast has multiplied and produced gas so much that the gluten structure has broken down. Why was an overnight proof okay in the video and recipe that you used but too long for the bread you made? Several factors occur to me - biggest influence first: Your bread had a 1/2 tsp of commercial yeast, the other two had only starter. I've made rye bread and regular sour dough bread both ways: starter only or starter plus a 1/4 to 1/2 tsp commercial yeast. Even that small amount of commercial yeast decreases rising time a lot. 8 or more hours warm rise was probably too much for dough with a 1/2 tsp yeast. You started the bread in a bread machine which warmed it for two rises (an hour) while the video and recipe just did a half hour rest on the counter (possibly in a fairly cool room. So the yeastie beasties in your bread had a head start on multiplying. Possibly your kitchen and oven-light warmed oven were warmer than the environments in the video and recipe you followed. Another factor I'm not sure about. I've not made no-knead sourdough bread in the bread machine. Generally, the sourdough recipes I've used emphasize gentle handling of the dough after the initial mixing - no knock down, just stretch and fold. Possibly the knock down and second knead in the bread machine reduced it's structure. I'm not convinced of that, but it is different from the recipes. Even for sourdough starter only, 8 hours for a warm environment rise seems long. I've done counter rising that long, not rising with additional warmth. With commercial yeast added I would only do an overnight rise in the fridge. To avoid over-proofing, either find a recipe that uses starter plus yeast to use for the timings or do the rise during the day when you can check on progress to figure how long it needs or put it in the fridge to do the overnight rise in the cold. Over-proofed dough collapses very easily. When the dough is properly proofed, you will find it easier to slash without deflating. On the other hand, over-proofed dough isn't going to have oven spring so it shouldn't benefit from slashing. I slash either with a safety razor blade or with a double edged razor blade threaded onto a thin bamboo skewer to give the blade a curve like most lames. You want a thin, very sharp blade for slashing. A razor blade can be replaced when it's edge dulls.
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grainlady_ks
13 years ago
I feel for you. I went through this once with a bag of Prairie Gold myself.

Is this a recipe that also includes some spelt flour in it, or is it all whole wheat flour?

The flat top indicates a weak dough from low-protein wheat.
-Add Vital Wheat Gluten to strengthen the dough.
-Try using a sponge method that involves at least a 2 to 2-1/2 hour sponge.
-Use this batch of wheat for making baked goods that don't require a lot of gluten development, or other things like homemade bulgur, cracked wheat, cooked wheat, wheat sprouts....

I'd also give Wheat Montana a call and see if they have any suggestions (link below). It may have something to do with damaged starch. Signs of that are:

-Over-absorption of water.
-The dough becomes slack at the end of mixing.
-The dough becomes more and more sticky during bulk fermentation.
-Once shaped, the loaves tend to flatten out.

BTW - you'd have to drag my grain mills from my cold dead hands.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Wheat Montana
annie1992
13 years ago
Grainlady, I agree, I'd have added vital wheat gluten if I got loaves that looked like that (which I have gotten in the past, rhome, so don't feel alone). She says she added VWG though, and dough enhancer too.

So, either it's still not enough VWG for that particular flour or it's something else. I'd probably add more VWG for another batch to see how it goes, but I'd also contact the company and see if they have suggestions.

Annie
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks, ladies.

I always use part spelt in this recipe, and figured my best test of the grain was to stick to my usual everything first. I usually do a 25 minute sponge. It seemed a little lower than usual at that point, but not too bad. I can try a longer one.

I am so frustrated with it, I think I'll try another batch today with more vital wheat gluten. I'd sure hate to use this whole bag for something else (although maybe I'll discover something new to add to my repertoire!), as getting another bag doesn't fit my budget right now and it means waiting over a week for special order and 2 hours + driving, and can I be sure it will be any better?? I wonder if I have to wait for another growing season or something?

I will also contact Montana Wheat. Can't hurt to ask them.

Thanks again.
readinglady
13 years ago
Based on your description of the flour and its performance, I'd definitely call the company and tell them what's going on.

Is mislabeling of the wheat berries at all possible? Because your flour seems to be acting like a very soft low-protein.

Given the character of earlier loaves, your experience as a bread-baker, a familiar recipe, the same mixer and oven, it has to come down to ingredients. In this case the flour would seem to be the culprit.

Carol
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
Thanks for your input, too, Carol. I've emailed Montana Wheat and included a link to this discussion. Off to try a new batch of bread with some changes...
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
I lengthened the sponge time as long as I could (track meet to get to this afternoon), so it was an hour instead of 25 minutes. I left out the spelt, and put in 1/2 c. vital wheat gluten instead of 3 Tablespoons, and added a good sized russet potato, mashed.

This is what I got:

Can't complain too much about their rise or shape. The first loaf we cut into, though, has some holes (up to about 1/4 inch) in the top half of the loaf that I don't think we usually have:

Thank you again! :-D
gldno1
13 years ago
Those last loaves look very good to me!

Grainlady, I read your comment to my husband who is not as enthusiastic as I am about the grain mill.

I thought I posted earlier but gardenweb has been giving me fits lately with slow posting and then saying connection is disconnected. I guess it caught the post and tossed it!

I need to check into the sponge method; I don't do that now.
I also just do a three-loaf recipe. Do you use a mixer to make your bread?

That's on my wish list along with the mill.

Glenda
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
Glenda, Not sure if it's me you were asking, but, yes, I do use a mixer. I have a bread mixer now, but used to use my KitchenAid with the dough hook...But mine was a 4 1/2 qt so would only do a 2-loaf recipe.

Using the sponge method and the SAF yeast means I only need to do one rise for my bread recipe. I mix the liquid, oil, sugar, potato, cracked grains, and about 1/3 of the flour, then let it sponge. Then come back and add vital wheat gluten, dough enhancer, salt, and the remaining flour, and knead it. After kneading, I shape it and put it in the pans for its one rise.

If your husband loves bread, he'll get more enthusiastic about the grain mill once you make the bread from freshly milled flour...So good, and so much better for you than using commercially milled flour with less nutrients and possibly rancid oils. Freshly milled flour makes dough that raises so much nicer --usually ;-) -- than flour that's been milled for who knows how long.
dgkritch
13 years ago
Rhome,
Just to clarify (for me!), I'm assuming your sponge also contains the yeast, yes?

Anyone ever make a sponge like this at night, add the remaining ingredients in the morning? Or would that be too long? Can it be TOO long?

Your last loaves look exactly like what I'm shooting for!
I want a simple, whole wheat sandwich type loaf that can easily be made from our food storage items (i.e. wheat berries, yeast, salt, oil, sugar/honey and eggs are all options).
I've been consistently making "flat" ones that are very dense. Grrr...
I'll be grinding and baking again this weekend!

I just don't want to buy/consume AP flour.

Would you share your recipe?

Deanna
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
OOPS! Of course I do put the yeast in the sponge. So sorry to leave that out.

I have to rush out right now, but I'm linking the recipe that was the first sandwich recipe I got good results with. I have changed it a bit and combined it with a recipe that came with my grain mill...I'll post that later.

I don't know the answers about the sponge. We usually need bread NOW, so I don't sponge overnight or longer than I have to. :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Country Baker wheat bread recipe
grainlady_ks
13 years ago
Glenda-

I generally do an overnight sponge (8-12 hours), but at least 2-1/2 hours if I'm doing a "rush" job. Even a 30-minute sponge will improve the dough, but according to "experts" 2-1/2 hours is better.

I mill the flour and start the sponge just after supper in the evening, and wash everything up while I have a sink full of water after meal clean-up and dish washing. Place the remaining flour needed to add the next day in the refrigerator or freezer until I need it (take it out early enough to warm to room temperature before adding it to the sponge). I have a friend who does up to 24 hours, but half the time it's in the refrigerator, and half room temperature.

Using a sponge method with freshly-milled flour will help to get a very light loaf. I mix my dough in a Zojirushi bread machine - enough for two regular loaves, or three small loaves. I only use the Zo for mixing and take the dough out of the machine as soon as the kneading is done and place it in a dough-rising bucket so I can control the rise (to just UNDER "double"). A bread machine rise is a timed rise and it's easy to over-proof dough in it. Dough rises not to the clock, but according to the ambient temperature, humidity level (air and hydration of the dough), and the strength of the yeast. Whole wheat dough doesn't have the extensibility that bread made with bleached/unbleached flour does, so that's another reason to keep the rise to just under "double". In a dough-rising bucket, I can see by the graduated lines on the container that there is one quart of dough in it, so when it rises the two quart line, I know the dough has doubled. The lid snapped on tight also keeps the dough from drying out for a perfect little environment. I oil my hands before handling the dough and patting it into the container so it doesn't stick to my hands.

I also suggest adding 1/4 t. ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) powder per loaf to the sponge ingredients so you don't get those short, squatty loaves so common with 100% whole wheat bread when made using the direct dough method.

There is a substance called glutathione in wheat germ that breaks down the gluten bonds. Adding ascorbic acid to the dough counteracts the effects of glutathione (helps prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down, and repairs gluten bonds that have been broken). The ascorbic acid helps the yeast to work longer and faster because yeast likes a slightly acidic atmosphere. You may also find recipes for whole wheat bread that include lemon juice or vinegar as the acid.

I use 1/2 water and 1/2 homemade kefir, buttermilk, or yogurt in the sponge. These cultured milk products also provide lactic acid and lactobacilli that help break down complex starches, irritating tannins and difficult-to-digest proteins in the whole wheat flour. Soaking the flour using a cultured milk product increases vitamin content and makes all the nutrients in grains more available.

-Grainlady
rhome410
Original Author
13 years ago
I'm going to try some yogurt next time...and maybe that longer sponge, but will have to watch for it overflowing my mixer bowl. :-)

My usual recipe, as requested by Deanna:

Add all at once to mixer bowl:
- 3/4 c oil

- optional, but used in the bread pictured above: 1 large or 2 medium potatoes (cubed, cooked in 1/2 c water in microwave, and mashed, then cooled slightly)

- approx 5 c warm water (but I'm going to try Grainlady's suggestion for replacing half...and use cold if the potato is still hot so that mixture is lukewarm when you add the yeast)

- 2/3 c cane sugar

- 2 c cracked mixed grains

- 3 Tbsp SAF Instant yeast

- 4-5 c freshly milled flour (whole wheat or 5/8 wheat and 3/8 spelt)

Mix together so that it's like thick pancake batter and let rest to sponge for 25 minutes to an hour.

Add
- 2 Tbsp salt, usually Kosher or sea salt

- 3 Tbsp dough enhancer (includes ascorbic acid)

- 3 Tbsp (1/2 c for this batch of wheat) Vital Wheat Gluten

While mixing, add
- Approx 7 cups of flour, until the dough is cleaning the sides of the mixing bowl.

Knead 7-8 minutes.

Shape and place in greased pans, and I spray the tops with oil/Pam. Let rise, covered with towel, 40 minutes, then bake in preheated 350 degree oven for 32-35 minutes...until internal temp is 200 degrees.

Still having bread probs...Over or underkneaded?

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