I will be following this closely. I have no solution, but know how you feel. Since I started adding enhancer to my dough, I have a good high rise.

Now I am worried about the wheat berries you refer to. My plan is to buy a grinder and the berries this fall to have fresh flour. I hate to spend that kind of money if this can be an issue.

Hope some serious bread makers will chime in here.

glenda

Glenda, I still would encourage you to get the grinder and berries. I LOVE making bread with fresh flour, and have had years of success of making it weekly or more. I'm sure the wise ones here will help me figure this out, and then you and I will both know what to do when/if we encounter it again. :-)

I feel for you. I went through this once with a bag of Prairie Gold myself.

Is this a recipe that also includes some spelt flour in it, or is it all whole wheat flour?

The flat top indicates a weak dough from low-protein wheat.
-Add Vital Wheat Gluten to strengthen the dough.
-Try using a sponge method that involves at least a 2 to 2-1/2 hour sponge.
-Use this batch of wheat for making baked goods that don't require a lot of gluten development, or other things like homemade bulgur, cracked wheat, cooked wheat, wheat sprouts....

I'd also give Wheat Montana a call and see if they have any suggestions (link below). It may have something to do with damaged starch. Signs of that are:

-Over-absorption of water.
-The dough becomes slack at the end of mixing.
-The dough becomes more and more sticky during bulk fermentation.
-Once shaped, the loaves tend to flatten out.

BTW - you'd have to drag my grain mills from my cold dead hands.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Wheat Montana

Grainlady, I agree, I'd have added vital wheat gluten if I got loaves that looked like that (which I have gotten in the past, rhome, so don't feel alone). She says she added VWG though, and dough enhancer too.

So, either it's still not enough VWG for that particular flour or it's something else. I'd probably add more VWG for another batch to see how it goes, but I'd also contact the company and see if they have suggestions.

Annie

Thanks, ladies.

I always use part spelt in this recipe, and figured my best test of the grain was to stick to my usual everything first. I usually do a 25 minute sponge. It seemed a little lower than usual at that point, but not too bad. I can try a longer one.

I am so frustrated with it, I think I'll try another batch today with more vital wheat gluten. I'd sure hate to use this whole bag for something else (although maybe I'll discover something new to add to my repertoire!), as getting another bag doesn't fit my budget right now and it means waiting over a week for special order and 2 hours + driving, and can I be sure it will be any better?? I wonder if I have to wait for another growing season or something?

I will also contact Montana Wheat. Can't hurt to ask them.

Thanks again.

Based on your description of the flour and its performance, I'd definitely call the company and tell them what's going on.

Is mislabeling of the wheat berries at all possible? Because your flour seems to be acting like a very soft low-protein.

Given the character of earlier loaves, your experience as a bread-baker, a familiar recipe, the same mixer and oven, it has to come down to ingredients. In this case the flour would seem to be the culprit.

Carol

Thanks for your input, too, Carol. I've emailed Montana Wheat and included a link to this discussion. Off to try a new batch of bread with some changes...

I lengthened the sponge time as long as I could (track meet to get to this afternoon), so it was an hour instead of 25 minutes. I left out the spelt, and put in 1/2 c. vital wheat gluten instead of 3 Tablespoons, and added a good sized russet potato, mashed.

This is what I got:

Can't complain too much about their rise or shape. The first loaf we cut into, though, has some holes (up to about 1/4 inch) in the top half of the loaf that I don't think we usually have:

Thank you again! :-D

Those last loaves look very good to me!

Grainlady, I read your comment to my husband who is not as enthusiastic as I am about the grain mill.

I thought I posted earlier but gardenweb has been giving me fits lately with slow posting and then saying connection is disconnected. I guess it caught the post and tossed it!

I need to check into the sponge method; I don't do that now.
I also just do a three-loaf recipe. Do you use a mixer to make your bread?

That's on my wish list along with the mill.

Glenda

Glenda, Not sure if it's me you were asking, but, yes, I do use a mixer. I have a bread mixer now, but used to use my KitchenAid with the dough hook...But mine was a 4 1/2 qt so would only do a 2-loaf recipe.

Using the sponge method and the SAF yeast means I only need to do one rise for my bread recipe. I mix the liquid, oil, sugar, potato, cracked grains, and about 1/3 of the flour, then let it sponge. Then come back and add vital wheat gluten, dough enhancer, salt, and the remaining flour, and knead it. After kneading, I shape it and put it in the pans for its one rise.

If your husband loves bread, he'll get more enthusiastic about the grain mill once you make the bread from freshly milled flour...So good, and so much better for you than using commercially milled flour with less nutrients and possibly rancid oils. Freshly milled flour makes dough that raises so much nicer --usually ;-) -- than flour that's been milled for who knows how long.

Rhome,
Just to clarify (for me!), I'm assuming your sponge also contains the yeast, yes?

Anyone ever make a sponge like this at night, add the remaining ingredients in the morning? Or would that be too long? Can it be TOO long?

Your last loaves look exactly like what I'm shooting for!
I want a simple, whole wheat sandwich type loaf that can easily be made from our food storage items (i.e. wheat berries, yeast, salt, oil, sugar/honey and eggs are all options).
I've been consistently making "flat" ones that are very dense. Grrr...
I'll be grinding and baking again this weekend!

I just don't want to buy/consume AP flour.

Would you share your recipe?

Deanna

OOPS! Of course I do put the yeast in the sponge. So sorry to leave that out.

I have to rush out right now, but I'm linking the recipe that was the first sandwich recipe I got good results with. I have changed it a bit and combined it with a recipe that came with my grain mill...I'll post that later.

I don't know the answers about the sponge. We usually need bread NOW, so I don't sponge overnight or longer than I have to. :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Country Baker wheat bread recipe

Glenda-

I generally do an overnight sponge (8-12 hours), but at least 2-1/2 hours if I'm doing a "rush" job. Even a 30-minute sponge will improve the dough, but according to "experts" 2-1/2 hours is better.

I mill the flour and start the sponge just after supper in the evening, and wash everything up while I have a sink full of water after meal clean-up and dish washing. Place the remaining flour needed to add the next day in the refrigerator or freezer until I need it (take it out early enough to warm to room temperature before adding it to the sponge). I have a friend who does up to 24 hours, but half the time it's in the refrigerator, and half room temperature.

Using a sponge method with freshly-milled flour will help to get a very light loaf. I mix my dough in a Zojirushi bread machine - enough for two regular loaves, or three small loaves. I only use the Zo for mixing and take the dough out of the machine as soon as the kneading is done and place it in a dough-rising bucket so I can control the rise (to just UNDER "double"). A bread machine rise is a timed rise and it's easy to over-proof dough in it. Dough rises not to the clock, but according to the ambient temperature, humidity level (air and hydration of the dough), and the strength of the yeast. Whole wheat dough doesn't have the extensibility that bread made with bleached/unbleached flour does, so that's another reason to keep the rise to just under "double". In a dough-rising bucket, I can see by the graduated lines on the container that there is one quart of dough in it, so when it rises the two quart line, I know the dough has doubled. The lid snapped on tight also keeps the dough from drying out for a perfect little environment. I oil my hands before handling the dough and patting it into the container so it doesn't stick to my hands.

I also suggest adding 1/4 t. ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) powder per loaf to the sponge ingredients so you don't get those short, squatty loaves so common with 100% whole wheat bread when made using the direct dough method.

There is a substance called glutathione in wheat germ that breaks down the gluten bonds. Adding ascorbic acid to the dough counteracts the effects of glutathione (helps prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down, and repairs gluten bonds that have been broken). The ascorbic acid helps the yeast to work longer and faster because yeast likes a slightly acidic atmosphere. You may also find recipes for whole wheat bread that include lemon juice or vinegar as the acid.

I use 1/2 water and 1/2 homemade kefir, buttermilk, or yogurt in the sponge. These cultured milk products also provide lactic acid and lactobacilli that help break down complex starches, irritating tannins and difficult-to-digest proteins in the whole wheat flour. Soaking the flour using a cultured milk product increases vitamin content and makes all the nutrients in grains more available.

-Grainlady

I'm going to try some yogurt next time...and maybe that longer sponge, but will have to watch for it overflowing my mixer bowl. :-)

My usual recipe, as requested by Deanna:

Add all at once to mixer bowl:
- 3/4 c oil

- optional, but used in the bread pictured above: 1 large or 2 medium potatoes (cubed, cooked in 1/2 c water in microwave, and mashed, then cooled slightly)

- approx 5 c warm water (but I'm going to try Grainlady's suggestion for replacing half...and use cold if the potato is still hot so that mixture is lukewarm when you add the yeast)

- 2/3 c cane sugar

- 2 c cracked mixed grains

- 3 Tbsp SAF Instant yeast

- 4-5 c freshly milled flour (whole wheat or 5/8 wheat and 3/8 spelt)

Mix together so that it's like thick pancake batter and let rest to sponge for 25 minutes to an hour.

Add
- 2 Tbsp salt, usually Kosher or sea salt

- 3 Tbsp dough enhancer (includes ascorbic acid)

- 3 Tbsp (1/2 c for this batch of wheat) Vital Wheat Gluten

While mixing, add
- Approx 7 cups of flour, until the dough is cleaning the sides of the mixing bowl.

Knead 7-8 minutes.

Shape and place in greased pans, and I spray the tops with oil/Pam. Let rise, covered with towel, 40 minutes, then bake in preheated 350 degree oven for 32-35 minutes...until internal temp is 200 degrees.