Use an instant read to see how hot the bread is...it can get so hot that it kills the years.
Linda C

It must not be killing it all, because it still rises most of the way, at least. Would the heat change the way the gluten is developed? I just found a post on a bread mixers user group in which someone was having trouble with the rise and crumb after just getting a new bag of Prairie Gold wheat berries. No mention of noticing the dough getting overwarm in her Bosch mixer, though. But my bag of Prairie Gold is new, too, so now I wonder if it's the wheat instead of the mixer that's the problem... I hope not. 50 pounds is a lot of wheat if it's going to be a problem.

I will definitely check the dough temp next time.

When you add the water to the mix is it cold or warm? If your machine is heating up the dough, start with cold water, rather than warm and see if that works.

I have a magic mill that I knead large quantities of dough with and I find that when I work with a wet dough that takes longer, the dough will start to warm up just a bit. So I always start with cold water so the dough never gets hot.

Ann

When I do long kneads (8-10 minutes) in the Kitchen Aid, the dough gets quite warm. I suspect that the heat is mostly generated from friction. Cold water &/or chilling the other ingredients as Ann T suggested would be worth a try.

I usually use lukewarm water, but sometimes part of my ingredients are refrigerated, and I can certainly always use cold water. But this is a new thing happening after 2 years of the same habits (same water temp, same ingredients and kneading time), so it's perplexing me. I'm still more worried about the fact that the gluten doesn't seem to be developing for nice, stretchy dough, but one that will tear instead. The crumb of the bread I made today was OK, and it was moist and tender. But the crust surface was not consistent...A loaf or two had spots where the crust tore and made one-layer deep craters.

thanks again!

FYI...

'Experts' indicate the ideal temperature range for a mixed dough is usually 76 to 80F. Peter Reinhart states in "Crust and Crumb" that "dough temperature increases about one degree per every minute of kneading or two degrees per minute if kneading in a medium-speed mixer.

Jeffrey Hamelman ("BREAD" A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes): "For the most part, the temperature zone that works best, particularly for wheat-based breads, is 75° to 78°F."

To complicate things even more, there is a whole set of calculations you can use to figure your dough temperature based on the type of mixing method you use (straight dough or pre-ferment), as well as ambient room temperature, flour temperature, etc...

If you use a straight dough method and you want your dough to be 76°F you multiply 76 by 3; if there is a pre-ferment method used (which I suggest using for freshly-milled flour) multiply 76 by 4.

Examples...
Using the straight dough method:
76°F x 3 = 228° (Total temperature factor)
Minus flour temperature - 72°F
Minus room temperature - 68°F
Minus friction factor - 26°F
= Water temperature 62°F

For the straight dough, water at 62°F gives us a final dough temperature of approximately 76°F.

Pre-ferment:
78°F x 4 = 304°F
Minus flour temperature - 72°F
Minus room temperature - 68°F
Minus pre-ferment temperature - 70°F
Minus friction factor - 26°F
= Water temperature - 68°F

Friction Factor: For doughs that mix for 3 minutes on first speed and 3 or 4 minutes on second, the friction factor for most mixers is in the range of 24° to 28°F.

"Factors that affect the amount of friction generated during mixing, such as the type of mixer being used (stand, spiral, oblique, or planetary), the length of mix time, the mixing speeds used, and the quantity of dough in the bowl."
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If you work the dough too long and hard in the mixer, the gluten can begin to break apart, so check gluten development by doing a windowpane (or membrane) test.

If the dough is stringy and stretchy and sticks to your hands, the dough is probably over-mixed and broken. This isn't the same thing as being too wet.

If the dough tears, instead of having an elastic texture, the most common reason for this is under-mixing the dough.
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Another possibility...
There is a substance in wheat germ called Glutathione, which breaks down the gluten. By adding an acidic ingredient (ascorbic acid, lemon juice, vinegar) to whole wheat yeast breads, it will counteract the negative effects of Glutathione. I use 1/8 t. ascorbic acid per loaf for this purpose. Ascorbic acid (aka vitamin C) not only helps prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down; but it will help repair gluten bonds that have already been broken. Ascorbic acid also helps sustain the leavening of bread loaves during baking and promotes yeast growth so the yeast works longer and faster.
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When the top crust separates (shelling):
-the dough was over-mixed
-top dried out during rising (use plastic wrap instead of a towel)
-oven temperature too low
-too much yeast in the recipe
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You may want to do a protein test on your wheat - it can be lower or higher in protein than what you are accustomed to using. I've found this true with Prairie Gold wheat, which I've used a lot of over the years. The local hard white winter wheat I purchase I also know the protein level (13.1%). This is the same wheat King Arthur Flour has milled into their Whole White Wheat Flour, so they have strict protein standards. I've worked with wheat that had 16% protein, and you have to do a LOT more kneading to develop that much protein.

How to check protein level:
Measure 2 cups plus 1-T. flour (measure by scooping a dry measuring cup into the flour, filling it, and slightly packing the flour as you level it off against the side of the flour container). Add it to a food processor with the steel knife. Add 1-cup of water. Process for about 30 seconds.

If your flour is high protein (somewhere around 13-14%) it will absorb 1 cup of water producing a sticky dough ball when processed for 30-seconds in the workbowl of a food processor with the steel knife. If the dough ball looks somewhat "loose", then you may need to add vital wheat gluten to the flour to increase the protein, or reduce the mixing time and see if you get better results.

Hope there is something there that helps you out...

~Grainlady

I think grainlady hit the problem, I think the dough is overworked or overproofed, that's when I get the cracked dough along the side of the pan.

As has been often stated, bread is one of those items that you can't rely on measurements or weights, because each batch is different, depending on the wheat, the flour, the growing conditions, the storage conditions, the humidity level, the altitude, the color of your apron I think sometimes.

The information on determining protein levels is interesting, Grainlady, I've never heard that method before, so I'm keeping it for future reference. Thanks.

I've also simply cracked open a Vitamin C tablet and added it to doughs that are heavily or predominantly whole wheat when I think of it because I nearly always have that but never have vital wheat gluten on hand and can't buy it here at my small town grocery. Who knew it was a "specialty item", LOL.

Annie

I don't think anyone has directly said this, and I may have missed an important reason why, but when I was reading the problem my first thought was that it was the yeast. Not only that it was exhausting too fast/dying, but that the yeast itself might be doing it.

Digging around in my memory, I seem to remember something like this happening back when we were using fresh cake yeast. Before getting too involved in the mixer and gluten (which information I am also saving--thank you Grainlady for your great generosity), since this is such a recent development, it might be be worth trying a whole new batch of yeast.

Thanks for all of the more technical info I didn't know, and which I admit is a little confusing, because I seem to have symptoms of both over working and underworking...
"If the dough tears, instead of having an elastic texture, the most common reason for this is under-mixing the dough."
and
"I think the dough is overworked or overproofed, that's when I get the cracked dough along the side of the pan."

I've had 'shelling' from over rising before and this doesn't look the same to me.

I always use some Vital Wheat Gluten and Dough Enhancer, which has Vit C. But Plllog you brought up something I hadn't thought of... I did just open a new package of yeast about the same time I started the new bag of wheat. (SAF Instant...Red package)

I didn't have the same amount of problem the other day when I did a batch with 1/2 white flour...So the variable in that case seems to be the amount of wheat flour. I thought I was getting a good quality wheat with quality control standards...I really have little other option that I know of.

Just realized something...I often put in 3 cups of spelt with 5 cups of wheat to make my flour and yesterday, and with the pizza crust, I only used wheat. I think I've done that before without a big difference, but maybe if the wheat has a different protein level than usual, AND I left out the spelt, which is more delicate concerning gluten development, that is enough to cause my problems?

Shoot. Breadbaking used to be so easy... ;-)

With just wheat flour:

With vital wheat gluten and dough enhancer:

Both look reasonably OK?...Although the augmented one has more of a defined ball shape.

From your protein test pictures it looks like your wheat may be lower in protein because it should have been a more defined ball shape. Add more vital wheat gluten, or mix your dough a little less when making yeast breads and you should be fine. I had a bag of Prairie Gold just like this.

Another thing to remember... Whole wheat dough doesn't have the extensibility that bleached and unbleached (white) flour has, so only allow the dough to rise to JUST UNDER DOUBLE. Over-proofing presents another set of problems.

Another quick test... When you rub some flour between your fingers does it feel somewhat coarse/gritty - soft, and more like talcum powder - or something in between? When I mill soft white wheat, which is much lower in protein, it feels more like talcum powder than higher protein wheat.

-Grainlady

Thank you, Grainlady! I really wouldn't have thought to knead it less before posting about this. I tried the windowpane test and it just wasn't working, so I had guessed that it was under-kneaded.

The flour is still definitely grittier than talcum powder, but hard to know how it compares to what I had before. I have had so many bags of Prairie Gold and never noticed a difference.

Since you been using the same ingredients the same way for 2 years and are just having problems it would seem that it must be
1) some change in the ingredients
or
2) your machine is heating up

You are working on seeing if its ingredients issues
but is there any way to see if her machine is heating up?

Marys1000, I'm thinking that I have to do some more investigating to see if it's the machine, now that I know I may have to adapt to a possible change in the wheat. If I make the adjustments and it's still getting hot, maybe then it's the machine?