Did you let it cool before slicing?

Yes.

What temperature was the oven? It looks under baked and baked at too low a temperature.

Ten minutes at 425, 38 at 400, for a total of 48 min. That's longer than almost any other loaf I have baked. I usually bake at 400 for ten and 375 for 30. But my loaves are usually only 3 cups flour and I usually use a steel bread loaf pan. Or make rolls.

I can't tell from what you said. Is it overly dense, or well risen but gummy? The latter is almost always underbaked, though the times sound right. Maybe your oven had an oops? Or your clock?

The clay pan is fine. You said good oven spring, good rise, bad structure. That also sounds underbaked. But at the time and temps you used it shouldn't be, and it would taste kind of raw.

I'm no good at volume measures, but it sounds like it's near to 100% hydration. Those are tricky and need good gluten development. Your 2/3 cup AP shouldn't have killed it, but the more gluten the better with wet doughs. You need "legs".

My only true guess is that perhaps the crust hardened before enough of the water steamed out. That would have keep the crumb really wet, which could translate to gummy.

Look at the positives! It tastes good and you got a good rise. You can try salvaging it by drying slices a bit at a low temperature in the oven, then toast, or make french toast or bread pudding.

Good luck with the next one!

The Romertopf, being clay, was acting as a heat shield. Think astronauts re-entering the atmosphere. So the top of the dough would have crusted before the lower part fully expanded. I've never used one, but I think they have to be soaked. But maybe you did that? I bet you would get different results with a metal bread pan.

Get your oven smoking hot. I preheat mine to 500 when baking sourdough or any other artisanal loaf. Slide the loaf onto the preheated baking tiles, pour water in the preheated crappy sheetpan under the baking tiles, slam the oven door shut and THEN reduce the heat to 425 for baguettes or sometimes 400 for larger boules. Did you just knead in the machine or did you also do the wet dough repeated stretch and fold? In my experience the latter allows you to keep a higher hydration and still develop the gluten to the point that the shaped loaves will hold up. When shaping loaves, try your best to not deflate the big bubbles you worked so hard to create with that wet dough and slow rise.

I did the dough in the bread machine which had one kneed and rise, then a deflate and rise. Then I took out and did a kneed and shape, just as the instructions said. Was so flabby it would not hold a round shape for the final rise so that's why I resorted to the romertopf. I figured it would be a heat shield which is why I didn't put the top on, flipped the loaf halfway, and then baked the last 8 min. outside the pan. I don't think it was overproofed, as it was exactly the same as my usual bread reacts and also I set it to rise for the exact time the instructions called for plus did the push test. Reacted exactly as it should have based on countless videos I have watched plus my own prior baking experience.

I am going to again give up on these sourdough artisnal loaves. I tried my second batch yesterday and it was a complete disaster. I think I have wasted about 25 lbs of flour throughout my life, not to mention the time, on trying this style of bread. I've watched DOZENS of tutorials, followed the instructions to at T, tried many types of pans and oven temps and methods, and always use good fresh King Arthur bread flour. I always have the same problem, my dough does not rise up, it flabs out.

Last night I followed this exact tutorial, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSrbVeIr-eY

My starter looked exactly like hers.

This exact recipe: https://www.theprairiehomestead.com/2020/04/sourdough-bread-recipe.html

½ cup active sourdough starter

1 ¼ cup lukewarm water (I used 1 cup plus a few scant dribbles, so slightly less)

3 cups all-purpose flour]

1 ½ teaspoons fine sea salt (I used only 1 tsp of salt as we are low salt people)

Mixed it all together, shaped it into a round ball in the bowl as she showed, it looked great, put it in the oven with the light on, covered with a damp towel, overnight to rise. And woke up this morning to a big bowl of gassy starterish textured stuff. No structural integrity and my last three cups of bread flour WASTED. At this point I should have been able to do a final shaping and set to rise in my bannetons. No possibility of that happening! This did not happen in ANY of the tutorials! I've had it!!

I get good results baking in clay, though different shapes and recipes might be different. I thin high hydration is hard to get just right. A lot more depends on the flour and gluten structure than just plain bread.

Your dough was over proofed.....not enough structure to hold the rise so it fell.....and perhaps not enough carbs left to feed a second rise.
And.....what was the temp inside the oven overnight? Did you check with a thermometer? I'll bet it was too warm and killed off any yeastey-beasteys in the dough.
What I have learned from making many many loaves of bread.....at least 250 since middle of March....you can't time a rise. any recipe that says "let rise 1 1/2 hours then bake" is suspect. Maybe your kitchen is hotter? Cooler? Maybe you live at 4000 elevation or maybe at sea level?
And that shouldn't have been wasted......add some yeast and a little more flour, like 1/2 to 2/3 of a cup, and give it time to rise again then bake

If you have a Thermopen thermometer, you should use that to check if the bread is done. I typically bake mine until it is 200° internally.

Exactly what I am doing Linda. It is not rising much with the addition of more flour and kneading and then putting in bread pans. What that bowl of goo looks like to me, is a ton of yeast activity, due to its lightness and bubbles, but not transferred to the dough structure. That's a gluten development issue, not a yeast issue no? Why would it be tight and firm when it went into the oven for overnight proofing, but then during rising lose its structure? Letting the dough rise overnight in a "warm" place was what was recommended. The woman in the video left hers by her wood burner overnight. Leaving dough to rise in an oven with the light on is standard procedure which I see recommended over and over. But I can let it rise in my cooler home outside of the oven light next time if there ever is going to be a next time. I like the idea of an overnight rise, but I can try and all-day bread making session so I can watch the rising extra carefully. I always do the push test to test for proofing/final rise. Honestly frustrated when I see so many other folks just putting the bread to rise overnight and then voila, it is ready in the morning. Like I said, every single time I try an artisan bread, regardless of the technique, it falls flat and doesn't stay tight enough to shape properly and hold its shape. I always use King Arthur fresh bread flour.

I guess there will have to be a next time as I have about 2.5 cups of starter in the fridge now. But now I am out of bread flour, only have AP flour, no more bread flour in the store for weeks. But I do have some powdered gluten . . .

You can make bread with AP. You just need patience. Go for a drier recipe designed for AP and make sure it's kneaded enough. Try the windowpane test.

Here's the last failure. I added enough AP flour to the glop to make a loose dough that was kneadable and would hold together. Shaped it into loaves and put in bread pans to try and get one more rise out of it. The presence of air pockets tells me that the yeast was alive and breathing out, but no gluten structure to rise. It is even gummier than the first loaf. Such a waste of flour.

Waaay under baked.....how hot was your oven.....and did you test the remp of the loaf with a thermapen or an instant read? It needs to eb at least 200 in the middle.
My oven with the light on is too warm to proof bread.....everyone's oven and light bulb is different.

Don't give up pink! Look how far you have come and think how awesome it will be when you have your first great loaf. I would start doing something different each time...check the oven temp, use an instant read thermometer, increase the temp, keep trying!!

I wouldn't consider it money wasted either, but the price of an education. I am an excellent gardener/landscaper but it has come with 25 years of hard, hands on work, observation and thousands of dollars of dead plants. I know what not to do now.

400 degrees for 40 minutes in the pan, and then another ten minutes outside of the pan. The outside is rock hard. It LOOKS underbaked in color, but it is like a cracker outside with a gummy interior. The outside was starting to burn actually, which is why I eventually took it out.

I could not consider it waste if I I had the excess money and time and even a flour glut to experiment with, but I have none of those things. As is, I am scrambling to think of things to do with this gummy stuff. Probably will do a strata. It's just me and hubs, so we don't eat up things very fast, including loaves of bread.

Hey Pink - I seem to be on a parallel path attempting to learn about sourdough. With the added complication of cooking in a WFO.

If and when you are ready to try again I found this guy’s videos to be helpful. Especially in handling wet dough. I find it hard to control my instinct to add more flour.

https://youtu.be/Znv99QbfWGs

Update: I have been slicing the pale beige brick thin and toasting it, it's like eating a slightly chewy cracker. The rest saving for a strata when I have time. The weather has been so sketchy here that when I have a dry window of weather, I have to shift to outside work. Meanwhile, trying a rye loaf today, mostly starter with a titche of store bought yeast. We'll see. It didn't dissolve into a puddle. I added gluten to AP flour to give it the same protein count as bread flour. Let it rise in the romertopf and then baking in the dutch oven. Had a hard time dislodging the parchment from the romertopf so the bread deflated a bit putting it into the oven. Now I'm out of parchment paper . . . sigh.

Just took it out of the oven. Looks pretty good, other than being a little large and low due to some deflation. Crust looks good, we'll see about the interior. I have been told to not cut it until it is dead cold. I'll post photo then.

The one time I got a gummy loaf I forgot to slash the top. The loaf came out looking like a overturned boat, really weird.

I haven't had good luck with slashing. I don't have a thin enough, sharp enough tool. Here's the bread. It was only slightly gummy. Not the rise i would have liked, but the best so far. It's very tasty, will be fine for sandwiches. It had 1/2 tsp. actual yeast so not quite ready for total sourdough. Very much done, the crust is very thick and chewy.

Good going. Your hands are learning bread. :) Good for sandwiches is a very positive step.

Do you have a new old fashioned razor blade from a safety razor? That's what my lame (said LAAHM) has. The nice handle and cover are worth the small price, but you could make a handle and cover out of cardboard and tape. You only need a corner of the blade to slash with. Just keep your hands safe. Or...if you have a box cutter, that would work too.

Slashing keeps the crust from completely hardening, letting out the steam, and allowing the oven spring somewhere to spring as it pushes against the slits. Doesn't have to be pretty. :) Some unslashed bread will crack, so look better if slashed, but some are too hard, and give you seriously dense crumb if there's nowhere to rise.

It looks really great. I haven't had much luck with slashing either. I bought a lame but it doesn't work well so I use a thin sharp bread knife. Last time the dough was really wet and so I used a scissor!

Your best bet would probably be to use a thermometer to make sure the internal temp is correct. Last week I made two sourdough loaves (no yeast) and the recipe said bake for 30 minutes and I actually ended up baking for at least 45 minutes because it just wouldn't turn dark. It was this recipe https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe Mine never got as dark as the picture shows.

Oh dear, I always blamed my lack of slashing ability on not having a lame. The problem I have with the slashing is that it deflates the bread, no matter how lightly I do it. The only thing I have to use are various knives. My kitchen shears are bulky. Wonder if I could use small nail scissors? I have a tiny utility knife but it doesn't have a new blade . . .

You've been making high hydration loaves, right? They tend to drag more than slash. The nail scissors sound like they might work!

My lame works great on the kind of dough you can pick up and turn under (before the shaped rise). Not so much high hydration, weak gluten breads.

A serrated tomato knife might work better on a soft dough.

I was also serious about the box cutter. The parallelogram shaped blade might work a lot better.

Actually, the lame handle also curves the blade, but I don't think that's the issue.

I know instructions always say to slash right before putting the bread in the oven, but if I think the blade dragged or the loaf deflated a little, I'll give it 10 minutes, uncovered, to get over itself before putting it in the oven. :)

You can use a single-edge razor blade. Carefully.

The deflation happens to me too. Luckily, the bread seems to pop back up once it hits the oven heat. It's definitely a learned technique and I assume one gets better at it with practice.

New razor blades work well

When dough has good structure before proofing and poor/no structure after proofing, it is over proofed. The yeast has multiplied and produced gas so much that the gluten structure has broken down.

Why was an overnight proof okay in the video and recipe that you used but too long for the bread you made? Several factors occur to me - biggest influence first:

• Your bread had a 1/2 tsp of commercial yeast, the other two had only starter. I've made rye bread and regular sour dough bread both ways: starter only or starter plus a 1/4 to 1/2 tsp commercial yeast. Even that small amount of commercial yeast decreases rising time a lot. 8 or more hours warm rise was probably too much for dough with a 1/2 tsp yeast.
• You started the bread in a bread machine which warmed it for two rises (an hour) while the video and recipe just did a half hour rest on the counter (possibly in a fairly cool room. So the yeastie beasties in your bread had a head start on multiplying.
• Possibly your kitchen and oven-light warmed oven were warmer than the environments in the video and recipe you followed.

Another factor I'm not sure about. I've not made no-knead sourdough bread in the bread machine. Generally, the sourdough recipes I've used emphasize gentle handling of the dough after the initial mixing - no knock down, just stretch and fold. Possibly the knock down and second knead in the bread machine reduced it's structure. I'm not convinced of that, but it is different from the recipes.

Even for sourdough starter only, 8 hours for a warm environment rise seems long. I've done counter rising that long, not rising with additional warmth. With commercial yeast added I would only do an overnight rise in the fridge.

To avoid over-proofing, either find a recipe that uses starter plus yeast to use for the timings or do the rise during the day when you can check on progress to figure how long it needs or put it in the fridge to do the overnight rise in the cold.

Over-proofed dough collapses very easily. When the dough is properly proofed, you will find it easier to slash without deflating. On the other hand, over-proofed dough isn't going to have oven spring so it shouldn't benefit from slashing.

I slash either with a safety razor blade or with a double edged razor blade threaded onto a thin bamboo skewer to give the blade a curve like most lames. You want a thin, very sharp blade for slashing. A razor blade can be replaced when it's edge dulls.

An additional note on structure. The Prairie Home recipe and video do one stretch and fold. The recipes/techniques I've used do stretch-and-fold then rest 3 times. The loaf in the video comes out relatively flat - additional stretch and folds would build more structure to give a taller loaf.

Separate breads, separate techniques. I followed the instructions in the bread machine cookbook for the rye recipe using some yeast, because that was the recipe. I followed the instructions also. Now I am trying all starter, using the King Arthur Four instructions and videos. During day so I an get an idea of how long the first rise takes. Not really that long so far . . .

pink mountain: are you planning to do the recipe that I linked above? If you are, keep in mind that timing is key with the recipe because there are long waits for the dough to develop. My preferment developed in the fridge for 18 hours which was too long because I had bad timing.

I'm using the full King Arthur all day recipe listed above, so I can watch and monitor each rise. When I have a better idea of how long they take, then I will maybe try something overnight again in the fridge for the last rise. Honestly after this last loaf is done, I am taking a break. Four loaves, with one being awful and two being mediocre, and my last loaf that I just took out of the oven looks mediocre too. I am carbed out.

Bit of advice? If you do it all by hand, you'll get a better feel for what's happening in the dough.

Re Cloud Swift's excellent post above, there are other ways to achieve inadequate gluten structure besides over rising. Weak flour is one way, for which you can compensate to a certain extent with more kneading. The other is pretty much the same--underkneading. Gluten will develop with time, which is what no-knead dough is about, but unless the recipe is specifically designed for your flour, yeast, and environments, including ambient temperature and humidity, composition of the water, and any number of other factors, the timing just may not work for you.

I followed the Lehey instructions exactly, recently, and ended up with a mess, even though I made my no knead multigrain bread scores of times. Unlike "normal" bread, there are no general skills (like kneading!) that translate, and you just have to figure out what works for you and go with it. (And that was true of my multigrain too. I started with a whole wheat recipe, but it took a number of tries before I got it to a point I really liked.)

Now is not the time to give up! Take what you've learned about the recipe you liked best, and do it again, and try to make it better!

Good luck!

I can make regular yeast breads of all kinds all day long with success. Sourdough? Not. I've tried a couple of times, failed miserably and just don't get it. I guess it's something that I would have to watch the experts do before I could get it. And I love sourdough. Oh well - can't be an expert on everything!

Ritaweeda, I just made a long post called Fun with Sourdough about the loaf I made last night, with the recipe and very detailed directions. It's really good bread, and I think it's easy. It hasn't appeared yet. Probably has to be vetted by the PTB because it's long. Give it a looksee. If you have the starter, it might work for you.

I'm not saying I'm totally giving up, but I have bread for bread for bread to use up right now. Time to focus on the garden!

Photo of my last loaf. It was 1/3 whole wheat, all my own starter. The rise is pretty good, but not excellent. I followed the instructions to a T, including scoring, and my bread looked exactly like the bread in the video at every stage, on how to get a good rise. There were even air bubbles forming on the bread skin. It rose but it was still flabby and wide and a tad gummy but nothing compared to previous loaves, and similar to store bought whole wheat breads I have bought. It passed the windowpane test. The biggest problem I can see so far, is how to know when the bread is ready to put in the oven on the last rise, not over or under proofed. The push test doesn't always work. In my experience, sourdough loaves rise in spurts. Probably as different generations of yeasts rise and fall. Also, hubs doesn't like the "sour" part so a long slow rise with a lot of lactic acid forming and gas and deflating is not my friend. This bread had a moderate rise and oven spring.

Whole wheat is a lot harder to get a good rise on than white. It doesn't like being deflated and doesn't always recover. Because of the bran, it can't form the same kind of long, strong gluten strands, and the bran can cut the gluten. Your bread looks good! It looks a bit spready, which may mean too much water, which also creates the big bubbles. I don't know of a good test for the rise. You just kind of learn by doing.

Happy gardening! Just don't leave the bread so long you forget what you've already accomplished. :)