If they rose before you baked them....and they didn't fall in the oven, I don't know but for maybe your oven is waaaay off temperature wise.
If your bread is tasteless, you are not adding enough salt.
Also could be that somewhere in there you are killing your yeast...either adding too hot liquid to the dough...or perhaps kneading by machine and over doing it. Bread gets hot when it's kneaded.
Linda C

The rolls rose nicely, didn't fall, just came out really dense and heavy.

The bread just didn't rise much after punching down and putting it in the loaf pan for the second rise.

Water was only warm, not hot. Kneaded by hand, only until dough was smooth. It wasn't really "elastic" tho, it felt dense even then.

Could it be my flour? I didn't go over the amount called for, in fact used a tad less. I was using WW flour that I bought from the mill in Tennessee, could that have anything to do with heavy, dense breads? Maybe it's not very good flour? When using WW flour do you need to make adjustments? (But I was using the recipe off the back of the flour bag...)

I have vital wheat gluten and bread flour, maybe I should use either or both of those in place of some of the flour when I make yeast breads.

Not to worry, I am going to keep trying. If I can make baguettes and croissants I should be able to make a decent loaf of WW bread!

Linda

Everyone seems to have a different idea about what makes a good bread, but if I am making a recipe using whole wheat flour I make two adjustments. I reduce the amount of flour slightly, and increase the amount of sweetener slightly. For instance if I converted a recipe for 6 cups of white flour, I would change to 3 cups of whole wheat and about 2 3/4 cups of white flour because the bran absorbs more liquid. I like to add one tablespoon of molasses as the additional sweetener. I can make good bread using all whole wheat flour, but I prefer using only about half WW. I don't know what your ingredients were, but my first guess would be that you used too much flour.

I would also suspect too much flour. If you err, err on the side of dough that is too wet. A stiff, dry dough will quickly bake into "bricks".

Your dough may have also been under-kneaded. Do a membrane (aka windowpane) test to see if the gluten is developed. Kneading is done until the gluten is developed, not according to a set time suggested in the recipe.

I always add ascorbic acid powder (aka vitamin C powder - 1/8 t. per loaf) to yeast breads containing whole wheat flour (which contains wheat germ) or wheat germ as an ingredient. There is a substance in wheat germ called Glutathione that breaks down the gluten and ascorbic acid counteracts Gluthione. Ascorbic acid helps sustain the leavening of bread and promotes yeast growth which helps the yeast work longer. Ascorbic acid gives the dough an acidic condition in which yeast grows best.

Gluthione can also be released from yeast if you proof it in water that is too cool; and that will also interfere with the gluten development.

The amount of flour necessary for a nice soft dough has little to do with the amount of flour called for in the recipe. Correct hydration depends on how much gluten/protein is in your flour soaking up the hydration and how much moisture is already in your flour (flour is usually much dryer in the winter when humidity is low). You only add enough flour to make a nice soft dough. It's a "by feel" thing that comes from experience.

Another mistake often made is not taking time during hand mixing to develop the gluten while the dough is still in the bowl. If you make dough without the aid of a mixer or bread machine, then you need to take a lot of time slowly adding the flour to the liquid. After each flour addition, beat the flour into the liquid and develop the gluten. You can stop for a period of time after each addition and allow the gluten to absorb the hydration (and get a bit of a rest), then beat some more. The better job you've done during mixing while the dough is in the bowl, the less time you will spend kneading.

If your dough is a shaggy, sticky mess out of the mixing bowl when you get ready to knead, then you didn't spend enough time mixing. I use a Danish Dough Whisk and will beat as many as 500 strokes during mixing.

If your dough is a shaggy mess and very sticky to the touch, you'll tend to continue to add more flour than necessary during kneading to counteract the stickiness, which also contributes to the "brick".

You can avoid some of this by oiling/buttering your hands during the last few minutes of kneading to avoid adding more bench flour. I knead on a Silpat and find I only add a tiny bit of flour, if any at all, because I did most of the gluten-development while the dough was in the bowl. I also form dough (for panned loaves/rolls, etc.) on a Silpat and avoid bench flour entirely (just make sure you oil your hands while handling the dough).

-Grainlady

In short....using all whole wheat flour will make a brick...even using almost all ww flour will make a brick.
So yes, it was the flour, and likely under hydration as WW absorbs a lot more water then white. I've found for a loaf with a lot of ww flour needs to be quite moist to be in anyway "un brick like".
Linda C

Linda C - You said, "In short....using all whole wheat flour will make a brick...even using almost all ww flour will make a brick."

I have to disagree with your comment. I use 100% freshly-milled whole wheat flour for most of my breads and general baking needs and never get "bricks.

There are some different techniques used when making 100% whole wheat breads that render the finished product nearly like homemade white bread - light in texture and crumb with as loft. Pre-ferments, sourdough, soaked flour methods, retarding dough in the refrigerator, the use of flour that is finely milled, and using white wheat varieties instead of red wheat all contribute to light loaves of 100% whole wheat bread.

I've given people a loaves of 100% whole wheat bread that I've baked into a crustless sandwich loaf in a Pullman pan and they never knew they ate 100% whole wheat bread.

The proof is in the knowledge.... If your whole wheat loaves are "bricks" you might want to try a different breadmaking technique. Long, slow, traditional methods work better.

-Grainlady

Grainlady....please start a separate thread with a lesson on how to make 100% whole wheat bread...that isn't very dense. I don't know "soaked flour"...and retarding the dough?
Even my white whole wheat are very dense....make that Very VERY dense.
Linda C

Also, it's quite easy to get too much flour in a 100% WW loaf because whole grains tend to be sticky & people who are used to non-WW doughs add enough flour to reach that often touted "elastic" state...which will almost always be too much flour for 100% WW.

/tricia

I just received this 100% WW bread recipe via email from King Arthur a couple minutes ago...thought somebody might like to give it a try. Sure is easy enough.

"No-Knead 100% Whole Wheat Bread
If youve never baked yeast bread, but want to learn how, this is the loaf to start with. Unlike most yeast breads, this one isnÂt kneaded; instead, the soft dough is simply beaten in a bowl for several minutes, then scooped into a bread pan. An hour later, itÂs ready to pop into the oven. The result: A dense, moist, easy-to-slice loaf, ideal for sandwiches. Or spread thin slices with flavored cream cheese; the extra fiber in the bread will assuage any guilt you feel about the richness of the cheese!

1 cup (8 ounces) lukewarm water
1/4 cup (2 ounces) orange juice
1/4 cup (2 ounces) melted butter or vegetable oil (1 3/4 ounces)
3 tablespoons (2 1/4 ounces) molasses or maple syrup (2 ounces)
2 teaspoons instant yeast
1/4 cup (1 ounce) BakerÂs Special Dry Milk or nonfat dry milk
3 cups (12 3/4 ounces) King Arthur whole wheat flour: white whole wheat (organic is especially nice), or traditional
1 1/4 teaspoons salt

Thoroughly grease an 8 ½" x 4 ½" pan. ItÂs important to grease the pan well, as this bread tends to stick otherwise.

To prepare the dough: Combine all of the ingredients in a large bowl. Beat the mixture vigorously for about 3 minutes; an electric mixer set on high speed works well here. At the very end of the beating time, the dough might begin to clear the sides of the bowl and form a rough clump. Even if it doesnÂt, it should be fairly cohesive and dough-like, not batter-like. Scoop it into the prepared pan.

Cover the pan with lightly greased plastic wrap, and let it rise for 60 to 90 minutes; it wonÂt fill the pan. While the dough is rising, preheat the oven to 350°F.

To bake the bread: Bake the bread for about 40 to 45 minutes, tenting it with aluminum foil after 20 minutes. The bread is done when itÂs golden brown on top, and an instant-read thermometer inserted into the center registers 195°F. Remove it from the oven, and after 5 minutes turn it out onto a rack. Brush with melted butter, if desired; this will keep the crust soft. Cool the bread completely before cutting it.
Yield: One 8 ½" x 4 ½" loaf, 16 servings

©2008 The King Arthur Flour Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved."

/tricia

Grainlady, I second Lindac's request. I'm still using purchased flour but only use partial WW flour to avoid bricklike results.

Tricia, have you tried the KA recipe? I note the word "dense" in the description of results.

terrapots,

Nope, like I said...just received the recipe in today's email from KA. I also saw the word "dense". The picture didn't look like a brick, however. It looked like a regular loaf of bread.

/tricia

I'm another one who would like more information on baking whole wheat loaves. I was interested to hear about the ascorbic acid. I also keep forgetting how much vital wheat gluten to add for each cup of whole whet flour.

The proof of the rising is in the kneading. I'm thinking you just aren't kneading near long enough. I use my Bosch mixer but even then it's easy to think that you've got the dough too wet in the first 3 or 4 minutes of kneading because it's sticky when in fact it just hasn't absorbed througout the dough. Adding more flour is then a mistake. Let the kneading continue.
Whether this translates to hand kneading I don't know but I would assume it would.

I don't have any ascorbic acid so I use the next best thing.. a few tablespoons of Real Lemon juice out of the bottle.

I'd have to agree about it either being the kneading or the "mixing"..The first time I tried those wonderful Potato Rosemary rolls..I got little round bricks! It was because I under "handled" the dough. I think there is a difference between dense and brick too..and certainly wheat flour with some white flour added shouldn't have given her bricks..dense yes...bricks no.

1. This is as good as my presentation on making whole wheat bread gets. Realistically, I'm unable to put what I present as an all-day workshop as a post on a message board about how to make 100% whole wheat loaves. I teach information about the grain, milling, and bread making. The details are important - at least I think so, but I will add these sources and tips FYI.

2. Soaked flour method is found in the book, "Nourishing Traditions" by Sally Fallon with Mary G. Enig, Ph.D. I use a modified version of this.

3. Retarding dough is a method where you "park" the dough in the refrigerator. This essentially stretches the time allowed for fermentation which helps develop the flavor during the primary (or bulk) fermentation. The final proofing stage is when the dough develops lightness and texture. The longer fermentation breaks down the whole wheat flour which also helps make a lighter loaf.

4. I never add vital wheat gluten to 100% whole wheat bread, but that doesn't mean it's wrong to do so. I just happen to know the type of wheat I use has a fairly high protein level that will make excellent yeast breads.

I also mill a fine grind of flour (coarse flour = coarse bread). The finer the flour, the smaller the shreds of bran and the higher the gluten level. You can also sift the large shreds of bran out of flour. Use it as a topping on the loaf.

Adding too much vital wheat gluten will cause the bread to be tough. It also takes longer to develop gluten in breads with high-gluten levels. I've worked with 16% protein wheat and all that additional protein only means more time kneading....so more is not necessarily better.

The only time I add vital wheat gluten is if I'm using a large amount of low-gluten flour, such as barley, oat, or rye.

5. As pointed out in "CookWise" (by Shirley O. Corriher), "Give ten bakers the same flour, yeast, salt, and water and have them make bread with just these ingredients and they will make ten different loaves of bread." I'd suggest reading the first 100 pages of "CookWise" for a lot of general information concerning all kinds of yeast/sourdough bread information.

I make bread no one else makes using unusual ingredients. I use bits and pieces of information from a wide source of "experts". I change what I'm doing when I read new information I think will make better bread. Not all methods work for all people for a lot of reasons. Mostly time is the factor.

6. There are three basic methods for making bread - straight dough (aka direct-mix), sponge (aka pre-ferment), or sourdough.

7. The straight dough method is a modern method based on modern commercial flour, yeast, and quick mixing methods. This method is fine for most modern (white) breads, but you'll get better whole wheat bread using the other two methods.

8. Sponge/pre-ferments come in a wide variety of methods. I'd suggest checking out a copy of "Crust & Crumb" by Peter Reinhart for more information.

9. Sourdough is also a method that takes a lot more time than than the straight dough method.

10. BREAD MACHINE BREAD
Luisa Perkins of Cold Spring, New York, has supplied us with the following soaked recipe for a bread machine. She uses a Zojirushi bread machine (available from the King Arthur flour company), which has a "homemade" cycle.

1 cup purified water
3/4 cup homemade whey
5 cups freshly ground hard wheat flour, preferably white wheat, not red
3 tablespoons Rapadura or Sucanat
4 tablespoons lard or butter
2 teaspoons sea salt
2 teaspoons yeast (SAF brand recommended)

Put the water, whey and flour into the bread machine loaf pan. Set the homemade cycle to the maximum time allowed on preheat and rise cycles--this should be at least 6 hours. The baking time should be set to zero. After preheating and kneading, the dough has about 6 hours at about 100 degrees. Add the remaining ingredients and set the machine to the wheat cycle, which should be another 3 hours at least. The two cycles together give the dough more than seven hours for the whey to do its work. The bread comes out nicely browned, risen to the top of the loaf pan and flat on top. It has a good, even structure and texture. If you start in the morning, the bread is finished by early evening and will be cooled off and ready to eat the following morning. Makes a 2-pound loaf. (Source: http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/sourdough_egg_noodles.html - towards the end of the page)

11. Another good method is called a two-stage method by Sue Gregg (www.suegregg.com). This includes an overnight soak/sponge.

12. I use an overnight sponge in my bread machine and mix the dough the next day on the dough cycle which is similar to the recipe above. This is one example of what I do for lighter 100% whole wheat bread.

3/4 c. (homemade) kefir
3/4 c. barely warm water
2-1/2 c. freshly-milled Prairie Gold Spring Hard White Wheat
1/4 t. ascorbic acid powder
2 t. SAF Instant yeast

Add to the sponge the next morning:
1/3 c. agave nectar
1 egg
approx. 2-1/4 c. freshly milled whole wheat flour (you may have to adjust hydration during mixing/kneading)

3 T. coconut oil - I add fat late in the mixing along with 2 t. salt - AFTER the gluten has developed.

* There's a science about when to add the fat and the salt (see: "CookWise" for this information). If you want a loaf that has a cake-like crumb (close-grain) and that also yields a shorter loaf, then add the fat and salt early in the mixing. If you want more loft and an open crumb, add the fat/salt late in the mixing - after the gluten is developed. Adding the salt late also makes kneading easier. Once salt is added, the gluten strands really tighten up.

13. Don't add ascorbic acid when making sourdough breads. They are already acidic enough.

-Grainlady

Wow! I wish I was as knowledgeable as some of you! I guess that comes with experience, tho, huh?

Thank you all for the great advice! From what I am reading, I am certain I added too much flour too quickly and then kneaded in more!

I, too would love a thread with WW bread lessons. I don't care much for white bread, so really need to master the technique for WW.

Linda

I'm still just a novice at bread making but I have found one thing that helped a lot on the bread texture for dough made in my stand mixer. After mixing, I let the dough rest for 15 to 20 minutes before kneading. Often it will be a wet sticky shaggy dough when I finish mixing and after the rest it forms a ball and kneads nicely. Some of the recipes say to do the rest between the two phases but even for the ones that don't call for it, resting produces a better (lighter) result and doesn't take that long.

If I had had to make bread with some of the instructions that I have seen, I probably would never have tried it. It should bring enjoyment when you are making it as well as when you are eating it.

I make a lot of different kinds of bread, but this is my most requested recipe for loaf bread to use for slicing. It is a KISS recipe. "KEEP IT SIMPLY STUPID" It has six ingredients. They are cheap, so anyone should be able to afford to try it.

I suggest you start with this recipe if you have never made bread before. You can use your all purpose flour and it will turn out just fine. Either kind of yeast is OK, but you can use warmer water if using instant yeast. This will give you a good feel for making basic bread and then you can adjust to suit yourself.

2 1/4 cups warm water
1 Tablespoon yeast
1 tablespoon salt
2 tablespoons oil
3 tablespoons sugar*
6 cups flour**

**If using part whole wheat flour, reduce the amount of flour. Always add whole wheat flour first and make sure it is wet before adding any white flour. I would suggest that you try 3 cups whole wheat flour (added first and mixed) then about 2 3/4 cups of white flour.

*I think adding 1 tablespoon of molasses improves the flavor when using whole wheat flour.

Stir all ingredients together in a plastic bowl and cover. (I use Tupperware with a lid) Let it rise until doubled. Stir down in the bowl and let it rise until doubled again. This 2nd rise will not take as long.

Punch it down and dump on a floured surface. It requires very little kneading, but you will want to knead it enough to be able to handle it easily. With flour on your hands, squeeze the dough in half and form two loaves. Try to work it into a loaf that is smooth on top and has the seam on the bottom. Place in two greased loaf pans. Let rise until double. Bake in a preheated 350 degree oven about 40 minutes.

I have given this recipe to dozens of people and I have never heard a complaint. It is easy to make bread. Don't let it scare you. Happy baking.

I think the lesson learned here is...keep trying because there is no one way to make bread....some methods work well in certain circumstances and others work best other times. And even if you think conditions are the same....the bread knows and may be different.
And that's why I keep baking....and asking otehrs to tell what they know.
Bread is one of the great simple mysterys.
Linda C