hi, I have a new Miele W3033 which, I think, has very similar cycles to your machine.

Can you tell me how Quick Rinse would be different from just using Heavy Soil/Prewash without adding detergent to the prewash dispenser?

Thanks!

here the difference .....from personal experience :)

#case A (Cryptandus - plain cycle with automatic prewash/heavy soil option)

The load is saturated in the prewash **that is part of the same cycle** . the PC board detects and stores load size and saturation data and matches the proper rinse level and rinse number.

#case B (Larsi - separate quick rinse then separate wash cycle) . No matter you spin @ max speed in quick rinse, at the wash cycle start the load is already partially saturated. The PC board detects fake data about load size and adsorbance : the load will be rinsed with a lower level and less rinses

*** unless the machine has been programmed with "Maximum Level Rinse" that trips load sensing for rinses***

The worst situation with the "previous quick rinse + separate wash cycle" trick is a full towel load.

I don't understand. From what you said, hidroman, it appears that using your method would result in lower water level and fewer rinses which is BAD. Right?

>"I don't understand. From what you said, hidroman, it appears that using your method would result in lower water level and fewer rinses which is BAD. Right?"

I haven't mentioned which one I use :)

I guess you assumed I use "B separate quick rinse then separate wash cycle"
Your assumption is wrong (actually i use prewash) .... because your guess about bad rinsing is right :)

I mean this : suppose you load several already dripping-wet towels (e.g soaked in the laundry tub). They are heavy, but already saturated. The machine "feels" they are heavy and runs them as a full load BUT, as they don't adsorb any further water, the machine guess they are made of a light , non-adsorbant fabric and uses a lower rinse level than the one it would be in case towels were dry at the cycle start.
That's why i prefer starting the washer with a dry load

As a clue, a load of shower curtains is rinsed with the same wash level

Anyway Larsi is right : sometimes one doesn't need an extended wash after the prewash (e.g linen curtains). Small loads aren't a problem, cause the pc board decreases washing times (the smallest,the fastest). In case of full loads that require prewash but not extended wash I use "wrinkle free", THEN i run the extrarinse after the cycle completion (wrinkle free rinses are taylored on half loads)

hidroman, do you have any idea how to force it to drain after prewash? I've found that it drains and refills only if the load is particularly dirty. A load of household rags soaked with household cleaner doesn't trigger the turbidity sensor, so it doesn't drain, but I want it to.

Miele dishwashers work this way with the turbidity sensor on "sensor" and "china/glass" cycles

In washers it is very strange, there isn't any miele washer that has a turbidity sensor here.
So when it doesn't drain, however does it fill again to flush detergent in main wash compartement ?

How can you be sure about it ? Did you wait for the wash led glowing or did you put a bucket under the drain hose ?
Forgive me, it's hard to accept that no matter you set the machine on "prewash" yet she decides on her own :o

The problem I have also with using the Heavy Soil (Prewash) option, is that all the detergent from both slots in the soap tray are sprayed into the wash drum at the cycle start. So when the prewash is over and rinses, and the Main wash begins...there is no soap left in the main wash compartment.

Also, it is annoying that Miele calls it Prewash, yet the button says Heavy Soil. Should it not just say Prewash, as it is called Prewash (of course in different languages) all over the world?

larsi said: The problem I have also with using the Heavy Soil (Prewash) option, is that all the detergent from both slots in the soap tray are sprayed into the wash drum at the cycle start. So when the prewash is over and rinses, and the Main wash begins...there is no soap left in the main wash compartment.

Are you positive about that? My W3033 sprays water into the Heavy Soil detergent side only for the first part of the cycle (if Heavy Soil button is pressed).

Otherwise it sprays water into the Heavy Soil detergent dispenser at the very end of the main wash, that way you can use it to dispense liquid chlorine bleach.

It sounds to me like something has been reset on your machine to change the dispensing patterns.

I think the LCB option may be a US setting.

Larsi,
the US manual is not so clear as european ones. It doesn't mention the compartements are made for powdered detergents.
If you use *liquid detergents with prewash* you need the optional cup for the left/main wash compartement read here, page 37

As I guess you use powdered detergent, what you report is actually a fault,so call Miele service. It would be normal to have both compartements flushed during the *main wash fill* but not in the prewash fill. The left compartement should be flushed just since the main wash fill

Annoying different names - do agree, also shouldn't they write actual temps and spin speeds ?

larsi said:
The problem I have also with using the Heavy Soil (Prewash) option, is that all the detergent from both slots in the soap tray are sprayed into the wash drum at the cycle start. So when the prewash is over and rinses, and the Main wash begins...there is no soap left in the main wash compartment.Actually my W4842 uses detergent from the pre-wash compartment for the pre-wash, and detergent from the main wash compartment for the main wash. I suspect you must have changed a setting in your service menu, as my W4842 does not behave as you describe. It works as it should.

The "hard water" (= more detergent) setting in the programming mode uses both compartements for the *main wash* . Prewash detergent has to be poured directly into the drum. During the prewash the water doesn't flush *any* compartement

My W4840 acts like the above posters', not larsi's, in regard to detergent dispensing.

hidroman, I've stayed in the vicinity of the machine, where I could hear the prewash water draining, if it did. Only stayed until the main detergent was flushed, since it wasn't going to drain after that. I don't use prewash a lot, so I can't say I've seen this a lot of times...but when I've checked, that's what it did. Except when I washed a batch of carwash mitts, and the prewash water did drain that time.

Hidroman, what "hard water" setting are you seeing in the W484X programming mode? I don't see any "hard water" setting. The only setting that refers to water hardness in the service manual is "Maximum water level" which is recommended for soft water areas.

Sshivastava - so i guess it's a setting only available on some old euro models. I meant this : read page 33 - activating the I compartment . (It's the british manual of my novotronic . German washers often mean "I = prewash" and "II = mainwash")
Larsi, I fear you have to use the warrantee

Suburban - what disappoints me is they have never claimed these machines to have a turbidity sensor ....

hidroman, are you referring to programming options for a machine OTHER than W48XX? I'm confused, do you have a different machine?

I can't have a W4842 ... elsewhere in the world than in America Miele sells only 24" residential frontloaders.

I was referring to my W844 programming mode - "activate the prewash compartment to flush in main wash too"
I gave you the link, otherwise one could think it was a product of my imagination :)

When I set my 4842 for Heavy Soil (prewash) I put detergent in pre-wash slot as well as wash slot. It only uses the detergent specified for pre-wash during pre-wash and then afterwards uses the other side of detergent for wash cycle.

My W4842 is fine!! :) Spoke with a Miele tech this morning, and the
Pre-Wash / Heavy Soil is functioning perfectly. It was explained in detail to me.

The W4842 Heavy Soil can be used with liquid or powder detergent (no special plastic tray for liquids needed).

Place a small amount of detergent in the Pre-Wash compartment, and a medium amount in the Main wash compartment. Select a Cycle, with of course selecting Heavy Soil option! Upon starting, the machine will spray the detergent from the Pre-Wash tray only and fill the machine with water. Regardless of what temperature you have selected for the Main Wash...the Heavy Soil option ONLY gives a cold wash (to remove and not set in any protein based stains). After the Pre-Wash (about 30 mins), the machine will drain and then fill the wash drum with new water and the detergent from the Main wash tray. There is NO "official" rinse between the Pre-Wash and the Main wash cycles.

I assumed my machine was faulty, since it was adding the detergent to the main wash, directly after the the Pre-wash (and not rinsing). All is great.

So basically using the Heavy Soil option just adds a 30 minute cold water wash, NO rinse (but instead a drain) and then followed directly with the Main Wash & whatever temp you select!

:) Relieved!

hi, larsi,

Glad to hear everything is working fine with your machine.

Would you be willing to contact your Miele tech to ask a question that W4800-W4842 owners have been debating?

Does this machine use the heater when a "Normal" cycle is selected?

(And same question for the W3033. I assume the cycles are similar to the W48XX machines.)

Thanks!

Larsi,
the rinse between prewash and mainwash was performed just by stoneage frontloaders (Constructa K series .. mid fifties). In average conditions it's worth having that rinse after the main wash. Today is performed just on special cycles in professional machines (e.g incontinent laundry cycle = 2 prerinses + prewash + *rinse* + main wash + 4/5 rinses)

I'm quite skeptic about "no need for a plastic cup for the main wash compartment when using liquids"

Check it out : pull out from the machine the drawer (there's a latch to press in the upper back part, between the two compartments) and watch where water goes to when exits the compartments.
If water goes in just one hose to the tub, no matter which compartment it comes from, your tech told you ... a bullblanket ;)

If there were a different system (meaning detergent goes from compartments into two separate pre-chambers) also the fabric softener dispenser would be made in the same way instead of having a syphon.

Regarding "no need for a plastic cup for the main wash compartment when using liquids"

hidroman, I think larsi's Miele tech was correct --for Heavy Soil (prewash) use.

Because there's no need to contain the "prewash" liquid detergent in a cup, it's OK if it runs right in before the (prewash) cycle water starts filling.

Or am I missing something?

thanks!

larsi, I'm not sure if this is because I have enabled the Allergy setting in the service menu options but my W4842 drains AND SPINS between the pre-wash and main wash.

hidroman, the W4842 detergent compartments are pretty deep so you can put liquid or powder to your heart's content. Each compartment has a door in the back with a rubber seal. That door is mechanically opened before the detergent compartment is saturated with water. The doors are in place before filling, which holds liquid detergent in place.

Thanks Sshivastava !
Otherwise they couldn't put a further cup, there's already the bleach one, so that's the only way

yes, also my novotronic spins after prewashing on normal/cottons and just drains on perma press and delicates. The old sensor electronic just drains no matter the cycle

Cryptandus - my concern was about *main wash detergent* flushed straight into prewash. but now Sshivastava has cleared it all. Curious to see if the new PW6080 works same way

Correction to above post. The W4800 series Miele do not always use a cold water prewash. When a hotter wash temp or Sanitize cycle (perhaps other cycles as well) is used, you will get a warm or warmer prewash. This hasn't posed a problem with setting stains to the best of my knowledge, but they do function differently in this manner than the earlier 220V smaller capacity machines.

Also, Normal isn't the only cycle that doesn't use the water heater. I think the delicate/handwash/woolens cycles rely on temps via an automatic temp control mechanism from the water intake lines. Additional heating isn't provided even if temps are too low.

Cyberspacer...Maybe you have a different 4800 Series than me or the rest of us, or did a Miele tech do some special adjustment? Our Miele tech (Senior tech for ALL of Southern California) told me that the W4842 will ONLY do a cold wash when selecting Heavy Soil/Prewash.

In regards to the internal water heater, there seems to be A LOT of confusion about this...The machine will NOT use the internal water heater on Normal, Wrinkle Free, Hand wash, Express, etc... According to our Tech, the water heater is activated when using CUSTOM. Even when using Extra White, the Miele 4840/4842 will rely on hot water from one's home water heater!!!

Yep, there is a lot of confusion about the internal heater. In my W4840, I just started a woolens cycle at no-heat temperature, to make sure it filled with cold water. Then I changed the temperature to warm, and the heater switched on. Now, I do have the Allergy option set, but I doubt that that's why the heater went on.

I have always seen the heater operating during the Extra White cycle.

Re prewash, I have seen the internal heater activated doing a prewash. It didn't stay on for long, perhaps long enough to reach the warm temperature setpoint.

suburbanmd, are you using a Kill-O-Watt meter or some such device?

Can you tell us what the "Allergy" option does, exactly? It wasn't well-defined in the manual I have.

thanks!

Yep, my washer is plugged in through a Kill-A-Watt meter.

I've gotten the impression that the Allergy setting has made the machine more patient about getting a good spin between wash and first rinse, at the cost of holding the timer sometimes, and therefore lengthening the cycle. I'm happy with that. Haven't checked water levels. Haven't noticed more rinses, but it might well add them under conditions different from mine. Haven't used Heavy Soil since setting the Allergy option, so I don't know if it affects the decision whether to drain the water after the prewash.

It's still a shame the machines don't use the internal heater in NORMAL mode, and I can't fathom why Miele added service menu settings for everything else BUT enabling the heater in NORMAL mode. I understand the argument that this would harm their Energy Star ratings, but why not put a setting in the service menu? It almost sounds like there is a different rationale here.

Heated or not heated prewash ? that's the question ;)

The misundersanding is all inside the word "COLD" that is ambiguously used by Miele

Chech all the tempeature settings in the W48XX :

No heat = tap cold - cold fill only

IMHO (but not only mine) prewash has to have a drain before the main wash (that will be carried with fresh water), otherwise it would be just a extended main wash.

COLD = 30°C = 85°F ("almost warm" were less misunderstanding)

Warm = 40°C = 105°F

Very warm = 50°C = 120°F

Hot = 60°C = 140°F

Sanitize = 70°C = 160°F

So the heater in the prewash engages or doesn't
depending on the target temp AND on hot water line actual temp.

hidroman, so are you saying that I saw the heater boosting the prewash water to the Cold setpoint? Could be.

I tried a prewash today with the Allergy option set. Started a Custom cycle with Heavy Soil option, and no load in the drum. It drained, spun a little, and refilled (and flushed the main detergent dispenser) after 15 minutes. Display still said Prewash for 15 minutes after that, then it changed to Main Wash.

Suburban, that's the same my novotronic does. No load = no soil : you got the clue it runs a prewash (so drain + main wash refill) no matter of soil level

Cryptandus, try this : close the hot water stopcock and run normal on warm 105 no options. after 15 - 20 mins open the door and touch water to have a clue.

IIRC double fill mieles when the hot water supply is not available switch automatically to cold fill only, this way you can have an actual clue

hidroman said "try this : close the hot water stopcock and run normal on warm 105 no options. after 15 - 20 mins open the door and touch water to have a clue."

I would, but I can't!

My hot and cold laundry taps are both controlled by one lever switch. That way it's easy to turn the water off when we go on vacation, etc.

Sorry!

Would someone else be willing to try doing this little "test"?

thanks!