Many times I have been the dinner guest of someone who was not a co contributor to the household income!
A priceless menu simply says..." for you, price is no object!"....enjoy!
Linda C

I now carry a pair of reading glasses in my purse (I suppose I didn't always need them like I do now), after dining in one restaurant on whose menu the prices were in a much tinier font than the item descriptions. I'm not vain - I asked the waiter to either bring me a lamp, or to read the prices out to me.

I haven't seen that in years (a menu without prices just for the woman)! I didn't think there were any restaurants that did that anymore. There's only one thing more patronizing at a restaurant than that: that's when my date says to the waiter/waitress, "I'll have the chicken, and the lady will have the fish".

I can order for myself, thank you. Hello, we're in the 2000's not the 1950's!

Hello! Do all women think like this now .
Was there something wrong with the 50's ?????

I think it's kind of charming!I'd relax, order whatever I wanted and just think of it as a sort of historical romantic moment!
Joann

Gosh, with all the real trouble in the world, I couldn't see spending a second being insulted over a menu with no prices or a man ordering for me.

In the first instance, you simply tell the waiter you'd like a menu with prices (if you are concerned about price) and in the second, if it's important to you to order for yourself, just speak up and do so. I mean, a man raised with the old-fashioned manners that incline him to order for you is hardly going to contradict you in front of a waiter if you speak up for yourself.

In any case, the waiter is there to wait on you, that's why he's called a waiter...:D

If we're out in the evening DH often orders for me...without even asking me what I want! He always has...and why not? Heck, I fix dinner every night & don't always ask him before deciding on the menu. Our favorite local restaurant doesn't take reservations & waiting lines are long. But, if you live locally & call ahead they will put you on "piority" seating. Basically means that whenever you get there you'll receive the next table ahead of the throngs of waiting tourists. On Friday nights, DH gets into town late & frequently phones the Oyster House in the afternoon giving them our approximate arrival time & pre-orders our dinner. I'm clueless until I sit down & the waiter starts serving. Again, I've never thought about being insulted??

I still sometimes run across ladies' priceless menus at higher end restaurants. But again, I 'think' DH has something to do with that happening...when he calls for reservations it goes like this..."Hi, I'm bringing my wife for dinner Saturday night about 8 p.m. Can you accommodate us? Great, thanks." Then, a maitre de makes a note along side the reservation & I receive a priceless menu. It's clear in those cases that DH is in charge of the dinner arrangements. I'm sure they'd never do it at lunch with a man & women both dressed in business attire, for instance.

/tricia

The person who orders gets the check. If I have made my choice before the waiter arrives to take the order, I tell my host what I think I would like. If a couple is out with another couple who will be paying for the dinner, the couple who are treating ask the other couple what they would like and tell the waiter. That way the waiter knows where the check goes.
It's just a little good manners....like opening a door for someone or standing when a lady comes over to your table to talk.
Linda C

I think it has a lot to do with reservations - my husband made them. Plus they do ask questions - such as special occasion, first time (at restaurant, or course) etc. Me, I'm a restaurant stalker so before I go to any restaurant I am well aware of the menu so I did know how much mine was because I have to know the price. Anyways, personally, I have never experienced this. Not even at another equally rated restaurant. Back to food. Here was my dinner (Chef tasting menu - my husband was too chicken to try it although I did request no foie gras).
Amuse Bouche - Seared chickpea puree with aioli sauce
1st course - tuna and salmon with some vegetables (and I can't even tell you what they were but there was a curry taste in sauce)
2nd course - prawn with scallops and a red currant sauce and some greens
palate cleanser - raspberry grenata
main course - veal with hazelnut puree and currant sauce with some baby carrots
1st dessert - rice pistachio pudding with a raspberry layer and two more (I forget)
main dessert - poached pear on pastry with truffle caramel sauce a couple of curly things, and vanilla ice cream
plate of pastries with coffee
My favourite was the amuse bouche. It was that good. I don't if it's supposed to be that way but it was.

The meal sounds divine. It's been ages since I've been on an elegant dinner date or any date. I'd be savoring each pampering moment. It's all about perspective...

I've been to restaurants that give out priceless menus to the ladies (high end places). I have no problem with that. It is a nice change of pace. Nothing to get upset over. Sometimes my husband orders for me after I tell him what I want to eat too! (omg) I'm glad there are still a few niceities around. NancyLouise

Oops, forgot one.
third course - oxtail cannelloni with seasonal fruits and vegetables.
We passed on wine and just had water. I was in the mood for a really fruity drink myself but I thought it might clash with my meal so I passed and glad I did. Three desserts, sugar overload for this girl.

Whew !!!!! I was beginning to worry a little.
Feel better now.

Romance !!! , we sang to Woman, when I was younger.
How many get Serenaded now ?

There was a saying,
" I chased my Woman, until she caught me."

Some of you women missed out on a lot.

Sing the song " As Time Goes By ".
If you don't know the words, Google them.
Lou

I believe I can still be treated respectfully as a complete and capable human being while having my door opened and my meal ordered for me and paid for by someone else. No big deal and it's nice to be treated "carefully." It's about attitude. I can't imagine anyone I'd have dinner with (more than once!) doing this in a patronizing manner that would diminish me or cast in doubt my ability to make a financial contribution.

I'd get a kick out of this if it happened to me. Quite honestly, I'm so practical, DH would get a kick out it too because he would get away with splurging on me without me fussing about cost.

If I'm 100% clear on what my wife wants I might order for the two of us. But more often than not the waiter/waitress has additional questions, whether about the preparation, sides, or other options that may not be 100% clear on the menu, in which case the questions go back to her anyway. Except when being served family style, I have never, ever, seen one person (i.e. the one who is paying) order for the table. If my guests told me what they wanted, making it seem like they expected me to order it, I'd probably respond with something like, "I'm paying for your meal, now you want me to be your waiter, too?!"

As for who gets the check, that's very simple. It goes to the person who says, "It looks like we're all set; I'll take the check please."

Tricia - There's a big difference between surprising him with what's for dinner every night and him surprising you with what he's ordering for you when you go out: With the dinner you cook, his plate costs about $7 and the menu was put together thinking about cost, nutritional balance, consideration of both of your tastes, what can be done with leftovers, etc. But if you go out to a nice restaurant and he's ordered you a $30 entree of whatever, it's kind of a shame when there's a special on the board that would really have hit the spot, no? That said, it sounds like you're fine with it and as such, it actually sounds kind of charming.

I should clarify - I was talking about the menu without prices. DH would never, ever try to order for me because I'm too particular about food!

>>If a couple is out with another couple who will be paying for the dinner, the couple who are treating ask the other couple what they would like and tell the waiter.I treat people to lunch or dinner all the time; not a big deal since we have more disposable income than several of our friends or family.

I most certainly do not order for them, however. I would not let anyone order for me, so I extend the same courtesy to my fellow diners. Nor am I a 'little lady', any more than my DH is the 'little gentleman'. Call us that and we're liable to slap you silly. We met in martial arts class, if that tells you something.

For many years I outearned my DH. It didn't bother him and it doesn't bother me now that he's the breadwinner and I'm retired.

As for missing the '50's, I certainly did not and was glad to see them go. Rampant racism/sexism/homophobia and rigid social mores weren't attractive then, and are even less so now.

You know the old joke about the 'good old days.' It's that the "good old days....weren't."

Jkom 51;
I must have lived on the wrong side of town.
Things weren't easy then but I have good memories with the bad. The good out weighed the bad.
They didn't even appreciate our guys, fightiong in Korea.
It wasn't a War it was a Police Action, back then.
But what you are speaking of doesn't compare to what is happening now.
And I'm afraid it will be getting worst
I didn't lead a Sheltered Life. I lived in Philly.
I don't really know why I'm debating this. I remember a lot of good times in the 50's.
And the Bad times. It happens in every generation.
Some are lucky to have all the necessities of life.
I guess it comes down to, how you appreciate what you have.
And realize that there are those who have worked hard and strived to get ahead but come to a roadblock every time.
I Thank someone every time I am able to eat.
And try to help others who are not as fortunate.
That's it.
I'm going to get a bite to eat and thank someone.
Lou

I can't imagine ever eating anywhere that has priceless menus - not in the budget. I don't think I could enjoy a meal that was that expensive.

I order for myself, unless I need to visit the ladies room, then I tell my husband what I want and he orders it for me if I'm away from the table. Frequently, if we're at a restaurant I've never eaten at, I want to ask the server what he/she recommends or is a popular vegetarian alternative to what's on the menu, so I'm one of those that's tricky to order for.

I don't find men opening doors for me, or standing for me, or doing any other traditional thing that's considered good manners to be offensive. It's the intent behind the action, and usually it's a good one - they're trying to by courteous. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sally

Though it may be true that I need a car to drive, I don't NEED a LEXUS....around here that is considered a luxury and I wouldn't dare call anyone giving me a Lexus a cheapo...price them....a Lexus isn't the same as a Ford Focus...drive one and you will see. As for diamonds as a holiday gift, yep, count me in there too...they sure beat a bottle of perfume or a new sweater. Yes, I would let them double as a holiday gift any time, year after year as a matter or fact!

foodonastump,

"But if you go out to a nice restaurant and he's ordered you a $30 entree of whatever, it's kind of a shame when there's a special on the board that would really have hit the spot, no?"

No, foodonastump. If DH asks me to go out for dinner and especially a restaurant that will likely give me a priceless menu...then he's trying to do something special & nice for me. I consider it a gift from him to me. I would never return a gifted cashmere sweater from him because I could get a cotton sweater cheaper. So, if he orders me a steak & they've got chicken cheaper it's not relevant. DH's gift to me was a steak dinner. I accept it as such & thank my lucky stars that I've got a DH that loves to pamper me. That's one of the ways DH shows me that he loves me. I would hurt his feeings badly if I refused his gift offer.

Same thing if we're out together at a department store for some reason. If DH spots a dress & says, "Hon, I think this dress would look really great on you." Well, you can be darn sure I'm in the fitting room with that dress in a heartbeat even if I might have chosen something else. I can always wear what I choose but sometimes it very nice to see his face light up when I wear the dress HE choose to that dinner with the priceless menues for the ladies.

It's not about the price.

/tricia

Hi Tricia:
I don't think it has anything to do with price.
Maybe I'm wrong.

My wife would have said something like,
"it is very nice to order that Entree and I know you want to please me BUT I would love to have the Special ,It is one of my Favorites "
If I insisted she would probably have said,
" I don't want the Damn Entree "

You are not actually returning a gift,just ordering something that you prefer to eat..

I'm trying to rationalize this terrible situation.
That's it I quit " again."
Back to the Fights and a Snack.
LOU
PS: Do you hate me ?

PS:2 : I always was under the impression that Martial Arts,
was for defense ?
Maybe I'm wrong again.

I dont' get it.....suppose your ...husband, wife, better half whatever you want to call that person brought home from the grocery store a beautiful piece of beef filet or a couple of lobster or rib lamb chops or whatever....and said...I thought you might like me to fix these for dinner tonight.
Would you be insulted and say "NO! I would rather have that chicken that was on special!".
I would hope you would graciously and with love and good humor accept the thoughtful gift.....or you deserve to be alone, without a help mate or whatever.
Accepting a generous and perhaps frivolous gift with grace and love is a healthy thing to do for a relationship.
On the other hand if you arwe one who would rather go eat at a chain restraunt and a high end place with an expensive menu would make you uncomfortable....why then a loving and considerate spouse would likely know that about you.

Lou, I have a brown belt in karate and I didn't take it for self-defense, I took it because it was good exercise. I never got a black belt because I had too much fun, I never got serious enough. LOL

I'll tell on myself now, I've never been to a restaurant that didn't have prices on the menu and frankly, I think it would make me extremely uncomfortable. Elery and I often discuss what we'll have at a restaurant, usually because we share, he always wants to taste what I have and I always want to taste his, twice the fun for the same price. In addition, I can seldom finish the portions I get served at restaurants so I often order an appetizer or soup and he'll order a full meal, and we split each. Then we're both happy.

I don't really enjoy eating out, and my propensity is to order whatever there is on the menu that I've never had, so Elery would never presume to attempt to order something he thought I'd like. I'm far too picky and want things just the way I want them, I'd certainly not make him deal with my ever changing tastes since what I love today I might not want at all tomorrow.

Annie

I don't think it is the same virtual situation.
Supposibly the meal wasn't brought out or ordered.
Is it disrespectfull or not proper to ask if one could have a choice, that they prefer.
If it is asked in the right way.

On the other hand, if I knew my wife preferred Lobster over anything on the menue and
she refused it, for the special, I would be concerned.

This is great, just like the fights I'm watching.
Throw a few punches, then back off and dance around a little.
I didn't get my snack yet, goodby !

Cookie8: Why didn't you just start dating again.

Tricia and Linda - By "special" I meant a daily special, as in something that is not on the standard menu. It's quite common for these to be among the more expensive entrees, but regardless, my comment had NOTHING to do with price. All I meant is that going out to an expensive dinner is a luxury, and it would seem odd to me that with a dozen or whatever entrees to choose from you would be stuck eating something that was chosen for you rather than what YOU would most like to eat that particular evening.

When my late husband and I went out to eat, the menu is presented, we peruse it and sip our drinks. We discuss what looks good....things like "ooh! did you see that duck dish? Doesn't that sound lovely?, but I'm really in the mood for beef..."
Then he would ask what do you think you would like and I will tell him, we place the menu's aside and magically the waiter appears ands tands next to my husband who says "my wife would like the small cut of beef filet cooked very rare, she likes it cool on the inside, and I'll have the duck special" The waither says "thank you sir" and that's that.
It's not like someone else making a choice for you. It's just that the host tells the waiter what everyone would like.
Linda C

I was referring to Tricia's post where she explained how at times her husband most certainly does make the choice for her. But rather than carry on this line of conversation, I would rather restate the last statement of my first post:

"That said, it sounds like you're fine with it and as such, it actually sounds kind of charming."

Ditto Linda.

I am also happy to let my companion choose the meal if I am unfamiliar with the cuisine or the establishment. I'm not that fussy about content as long as the food is nicely prepared. And for me dining with someone is more about the company than the food.

Annie :
I think most learn Karate for Defensive. You had fun and
good exercise.

What I was trying to say is, ( my opinion )a person shouldn't learn Karate for Offense.
And push his or her weight around.

We did the same thing eating out. Sample each others food.

In fact if there were 4 or more people at the table,
It would be Smorgasborg !

LindaC:
Now that's better !!!!!

Everyone! Mangiare ! Stata Bene ! Salute ! Cento Anno !

I'm outa here.
Lou

If men are supposed to stand up when women come to the table, why aren't women supposed to stand up when men come to the table? If men and women are not treated equally, that's either sexism or a double standard, and I find that offensive and the opposite of good manners.

I don't have a problem with priceless menus, but I do have a problem with the priceless menu being reserved for one sex. Suppose the woman is taking the man out to dinner and wants to pay for his meal? I've been in that situation, and I think it would be embarrassing for a waiter to give me the bill. I agree also that the one who orders gets the bill. If everyone orders for themselves, then they each pay for what they ordered. If someone else offers to pay for my meal, I will tell them what I would like, and they can order for me, but if I order for myself, then I expect to be prepared to pay. Someone else can offer to pay, but it wouldn't be expected.

I've noticed that on the West Coast there is much more liberation from sexism, and I think men are better fathers because of it. In my neighborhood, it is as common to see a man pushing a baby carriage as it is to see a woman, and the men seem to be much more nurturing. There are also baby changing stations in the men's restrooms here.

Lars

I take people out for business lunches fairly often. Sometimes I am paying for a guy's meal. Most waiters have learned to place the bill in "neutral" territory, so the diners can have the choice about who reaches for it. I'm sure the body language of two diners on a business lunch and two diners who are a couple having dinner together.

I took an elderly woman to dinner the other night and she ordered the lamb chops -- the most expensive thing on the menu! I guess she figured if someone else was paying, why not go for it. On the other hand she made a $5000 contribution to the organization I was representing, so in the end, she paid for it.

I don't know. I have to do so much for myself, being single, that I love it when I am treated like a "fragile (but intelligent)flower"! I have to say that when someone else is paying, I try to watch the price of what I'm ordering. But men should feel free to pamper me in any way they want!

Lou, I have one more language for your 'Mangiare' - Hebrew - 'B'TAYahvun', accent on the first syllable.

Jessy:
It all comes down to the same thing.
Eat and be Happy, stay well and live 100 years.

Lars:
I snuck out of the Old School.
We have the same situations here on the East Coast.
Men pushing Baby Carriages ( plural )
And Baby changing Stations, etc.

I wouldn't think of a woman paying for the meal.
and
I wouldn't mind if a woman didn't stand if I came to the table.
Especially my wife. I would have never wanted her to stand when I came to the table.
I treated her as something Special and treat every woman the same,
unless they act more like a man.

I don't kmow what you would call me ???
Juat the way I am.
To me people are the same thru out the country.

Bad and Good. I think the Good outweigh the Bad. ( I hope )

This is just the way I feel. Everyone to their own ways.

You like Hispanac and Oriental Food. I like Italian, Jewish, Irish , German , etc.
and very little of the first two.

How do I get into thes things ???
Guess we are " disgusting " different Opinions.
I'm gone !!!
LOU

This thread has been an interesting read.

I'm with tricia on this one. Occasionally when DH & I go out, I just don't feel like poring over a menu and deciding what to eat. So I let him just pick out something for me. It's kind a of nice romantic thing to do. He knows what I like and it's a bit of a treat for me not to have to think about it. I'm not sure I'm explaining it well, but I like it, he likes it, it works for us. Not every time, not every restaurant but sometimes it's just a nice thing.

As for the priceless menu... If someone else were paying (not DH, because his money is our money so that's not someone else), and they wanted to in effect say, Price is no object, order what you like! I would have no problem with that. But if I'm paying, I would find it off putting to have to make a decision about what to order without at least having an inkling of what things cost.

This is a sort of related story. Several years ago, my girlfriends and I were on trip and at an unfamiliar restaurant in an unfamiliar town. The waiter suggested a special-of-the-day appetizer that sounded good to all of us so we ordered it, without asking the price. Based on the rest of the prices in the menu, we were shocked when the bill came and that appetizer was $40! We paid, and after all, splitting it among several of us, it wasn't that big of a deal, but boy did we feel ripped off (mainly because the price was so out of line with the rest of the menu) and stupid for not asking the price. There's a lot to be said for knowing what the food you're ordering costs... if you're the one who's paying!

If I am paying for a meal...I will say to the waiter "I'll have the bill please."....and that solves the problem.
Many times my DH and I have been entertained by a business associate and both of us got priceless menus....at Tante Louise for one place if you are still with this thread Tricia!
I am sure the supplier's rep called ahead and said he was bringing in some clients etc etc...It's not a sexist thing...it's host/guest thing.
Linda C

Ha ha lowspark. I did the same thing when I was about 16 going out to dinner with friends for the first time. The waiter asked if we would like to sample the special appetizer. We thought it was free and barely had enough money to pay for our dinner.
With my husband, I was amused by my menu with no price and I did feel free to get as I please. But seriously, on a date, I would probably feel a little uncomfortable. Lou, I like what you are saying but on the radio the other day a young man called in saying he was dishing out $350 for a night out for a second date and "was wondering what he was entitled to" it was funny to listen to but ugh, the poor girl dating this loser. It is a different time now so I would rather take care of myself that have to deal with "expectations". So with the right person (someone I respect and vice versa), I don't mind this practice and am not so offended with it. Like I said it was my night out and I wasn't worried about price but I do have to draw the line at being ordered for as my mind usually isn't made up until right when the waiter is there to do the ordering. Plus I hate when I mess up my order never mind someone else. ha ha.

How about if I take all you women out to Dinner.
The only problem is,
I won't have time to run around and
pull the chair out for everyone.

Does anyone remember the Post when I told a story about a Bashful guy dating a Girl for the first time .
Took her to Dinner ?????

LOU

>>I treated her as something Special and treat every woman the same, unless they act more like a man. Honest, I think it's lovely that you treated your wife this way, and I'm sure she appreciated the expression of affection that it is/was. And if triciae and her DH are happy with him occasionally ordering for her, that's great, too. More power to both of them!

But it doesn't work for all couples. I don't ask a man to stand up when I approach nor to open doors for me. It's nice but old-fashioned. The only time I appreciated the latter was when I broke my leg, hobbling around with a cast, LOL. Frankly, if the man doesn't rush forward to beat me to the door, I'M more likely to open it for HIM. As far as I'm concerned, whoever reaches it first, opens the stupid door. The only really important thing is to open it for the elderly (like my MIL, who lives with us). What difference does it make who does it for her?

Times have changed and there is no going back. The restaurants that used to insist upon men wearing ties have finally fallen by the wayside. Handing me a menu without prices does not make me feel cherished and special. If it makes some women feel that way, great and good for them. For me, it doesn't, that's all.

Martial arts (not karate) is for some a path to personal power; e.g., centeredness; not much different in goal from yoga or shamanism (both of which we also study). They are the essence of equality, since it doesn't matter if you're old or young, white or black, male or female. You could be crippled and blind and it wouldn't matter. Defense/offense is really irrelevant. As one of my former sifu's liked to say, "If you want to defend yourself, get a gun!"

I totally get where Tricia is coming from. Sometimes it is nice to be pampered and treated like a lady.

I doesn't mean I'm not completely capable of doing all those things for myself, and then some. But it's nice, as a woman, to sometimes let someone else take the lead. It makes me feel pampered and feminine, and it makes my DH feel like he's king. Go get 'em tiger! It's alright to let go every once in a while.

Amen, gardengrl! That's exactly how I feel.

I'm a woman & I enjoy being feminine. Being "equal" does not mean "the same as", IMO. I don't want to be treated "like one of the guys"...at least not all the time in all circumstances. Of course I can order for myself. Heck, I can read the French menu...DH can't! lol

All of this has me rather surprised. DH does open doors for me, holds my hand when we're walking, pulls out my chair at the restaurant, stands when a women approaches, takes off his hat indoors, even steps into the street first checking traffic before we cross, & doesn't blow his nose on the tablecloth (for those of you who remember my "tablecloth" story!). Our son does the same for his wife & our DSIL for our daughter. Anyway, for us, these little as we call them "nicities" enhance our relationship & certainly do not demean anybody.

Linda,

Tante Louise is where I had my little "shoe kicking" incident! OMG, how embarrassing was that?! I made that post a couple years ago...you probably don't remember it. Let's just say we've been too embarrassed to ever return for fear somebody would recognize us!

/tricia

"I don't ask a man to stand up when I approach nor to open doors for me. It's nice but old-fashioned."

Just wondering if anyone else finds holding a door for women old-fashioned. Personally I'd question the manners of any male who has reached a two-digit age and doesn't know to hold the door - probably not for a girl his age, but certainly for any adult woman.

I doesn't mean I'm not completely capable of doing all those things for myself, and then some. But it's nice, as a woman, to sometimes let someone else take the lead.

This statement made me think of something. This is all about whether men should do certain things for women. But in fact, don't women (traditionally) do certain things for men too?

We don't necessarily adhere to those traditional gender roles anymore, but we still do things for each other. I do some things for DH, DH does some things for me. And some things, we do for each other, alternately, depending on the situation.

I like having the door held open for me - it's a darn sight better than having it close in my face. By the same token, I hold the door open for others, regardless of sex.

I can't remember the last time a man stood up because I approached, but heck, if he wants to, I think it's great! It doesn't diminish me in any way, it doesn't mean he thinks of me as a lesser being, it just means he thinks it's the courteous thing to do.

It's not the same as being called "little lady" or being ignored at the car dealership as the salesman talks to the man even tho we're buying a car for me, or any other kind of behavior which implies or insists that females are inferior.

There's a difference between what someone does because they think it's polite, and what someone does because they think females are inferior.

As an example, in my office, there are some guys who always open the door for women, they go out of their way to do it. These same guys sit in meetings with women and discuss business with them on a fully equal level, making no distinction between them and the men in the room.

>>there are some guys who always open the door for women, they go out of their way to do it. These same guys sit in meetings with women and discuss business with them on a fully equal level, making no distinction between them and the men in the room. Not always.

I like to have the door held for me and my chair held at a restaurant. Standing up when I enter the room would make me feel elderly.

Here is one courtesy I don't like so much. I feel silly sitting in a car waiting for a guy to run around and open the door. When we get in the car, I like having the door held, though.

>>there are some guys who always open the door for women, they go out of their way to do it. These same guys sit in meetings with women and discuss business with them on a fully equal level, making no distinction between them and the men in the room. Not always.

Yeah, but that's the point. The two things are not related. Some guys who open your door are just being courteous and it has nothing to do with them thinking women are somehow inferior. You can't blame them for being courteous just because some guys who open doors DO think women are inferior.

What I'm saying is, one thing has nothing to do with the other, so you can't judge someone on that particular behavior.

Oh, and in my office, always. I have yet to see in this company any male treat any female with anything but equal respect, in either business or personal matters. I can't say about other companies or offices, but around here, any guy who would do such a thing would be out of here pretty quickly. And that isn't just because he might get reported or reprimanded or whatever. It's because the women in this office contribute on an equal level with the men, and anyone who doesn't recognize that would be bypassing opportunities, and that simply isn't tolerated here.

It is the atmosphere here, that everyone is treated well, it's condusive to high productivity. It's the smart way to do business.

jkom, you're right, not always. I work for the first female Prosecuting Attorney in our county, and I hold a position usually held by a man. We are dealt with because we must be, but I know what is said "behind closed doors". They don't call me "the Pitbull" for no reason and that's one of the more complimentary terms I've heard. MThe boss gets it much worse, she's commonly referred to as "That B*tch". There's a "good old boys" network alive and well here and although we appear to have successfully opposed it, it wasn't easy. I was told several years ago that I could support my female boss and "kiss my career goodbye", or support her male opponent. Because I couldn't work for someone I didn't respect and believe in, I chose the former. Fortunately she won that election, but our all male board refused raises and promotions for years and still refuses to fund the office beyond anything except basic necessities. We succeeded anyway, but I don't take anything for granted.

As for doors, I'm as likely to open one for the man behind me as I am to wait for one to be opened. I don't want, need or expect to be taken care of, I learned the very hard way that it's counterproductive, I'd better be darned ready to take care of myself and everyone else I care about. That's what life after divorce taught me.

Would Elery be happy to take care of me? Of course he would, but it would make me extremely unhappy. That "helpless female" part just doesn't exist in my general nature, I've made darned sure it's dead. He has remarked that it's nearly impossible for me to ask anyone for help, ever. He's right, but I learned that help was not always available so I'd better be prepared to do it myself, whether it's paying the bills, ordering dinner or changing the oil in the Jeep.

I hope I've taught my girls by example that having someone to help is nice, but not necessarily guaranteed, they'd better be prepared to rely on themselves for everything, although I sincerely hope they never have to.

Having said all that, there's a difference between good manners and being condescended to. Just as I'd hold the door for anyone behind me, regardless of their sex, I expect that the person who reaches the door first would hold it for me. When I'm dressed up and going out, I appreciate the hand on my elbow to keep me from falling in the gutter when I step on the curb, and I do the same thing for my girls, it's not just a guy thing. Elery and I both cook, but we never make unilateral decisions, he asks if I'd like something specific and I ask the same. He's in charge of grilling, not because he's the guy, but because I just hate to do it. That's why I shovel the snow and rake the leaves, because HE hates it. Our relationship is based on mutual respect as equal partners and that's what works for us. Other people have different beliefs, different backgrounds, different experiences and different personalities. They have to do what works for them. ...

Cookie :
I found the Story !!!!!
About getting up to move a Ladies Chair out for her.
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Posted by hawk307 (My Page) on

Wed, Dec 19, 07 at 21:02
I have a little story. Maybe not a Faux Pas.

When I was a young man ( the Dinasaurs were still roaming )
My SIL had a date with a nice; but very shy, young guy.
( I heard this story later, that evening, from my SIL )

He wanted to do everything just right. He brought her flowers.
To make a first time, very good impression.
They went to out to Dinner in a nice Restaurant with music.
Every thing was going good. Her date had to go to the men's room.
When he returned she noticed that his shirt tail was sticking out of his pants.
Not wanting to embarrass him ,she excused herself to go to the Ladies Room.
She wasn't as shy as her date, so she told the waiter to inform him,
that his zipper was down. As she was returning to the table she saw her date quickly zipper up.
As she approached the table, he jumped up to move her chair out and
pulled all the dishes off the table, with the table cloth ,
that was caught in his zipper.
To top it off they couldn't free the table cloth.
He had to carry it into the back room and cut it off with a scissors.
Needless to say he was so embarrassed, he never dated her again.
My SIL still laughs, when she thinks about it.
LOU

Ha ha. How embarrassing.
Years ago when we went out for our five year anniversary we went to another fine restaurant. Our first time actually and weren't accustomed to the extras the wait staff provides. Well, I went up to use the ladies room and when I came back to sit down I didn't see the maitre d' come up behind me to push my chair in for me so as I went to sit the velvet on the seat caught my skirt and pulled it down to my mid-thighs. I was sooooo embarrassed. I never did wear that skirt again especially now that I have kids and are always tugging at my clothes! It was dark so I don't think anyone else noticed. I managed to pull up my skirt discreetly. Ah, things happen.