do you mean you dont process after filling the jars?

No, I don't process after filling. However, open-kettle can't be used for every fruit and vege. Some MUST be processed or pressure canned. When I open-kettle, I basically am sterilizing and cooking everything before packing.

It would be interesting to know which products you're open-kettle canning. Jams and jellies don't present any particular risk, except occasionally the development of mold. That can be detected easily.

I have relatives who still open-kettle can. In fact, my BIL does salsa that way. It hasn't killed him yet but it's a very real possibility. Even if you boil your product, boiling does not reach a high enough temperature to kill botulism spores, so when the jars are sealed, if it's a low-acid product, the botulism gets sealed in with everything else.

I know my BIL believes 2 hours of cooking makes his salsa safe. I haven't been able to convince him otherwise. So far, fortunately, he hasn't lost the bet. It's all a matter of the odds. One person or family can go a generation or several and not have a problem; you never know.

Carol

although I am new here, and new to canning, I dont think it would be worth the risk...I am paranoid that way. Heck I wont even let anyone eat out of the potato chip bag with their hands. If they want some, they must pour them into a bowl.

No way would I ever not process foods, that is just too risky. I process jams, jellies, and pickles, every thing. Otherwise nothing has been done to actually "preserve" a food.

Not considered safe by todays standards. Even for that, I use a steam canner and have been very satisfied with it as it has proven to me that its safe enough for all of my high acid canning

marian - there are still lots of people that open kettle jams and jellies. I just made some vinegar based bbq sauce tonight that I put in pint jars and let seal. These will all be used in the next several weeks and I didn't see any need to process them, even in my steam canner. As long as you know the risks, however minute they may be, you're still free to preserve food as you see fit.

marian,

I am guessing that you wrote this post because you are concerned that your practices may not be safe. I am a newbie canner as well, and my recommendation would be that you read as many of the threads on this forum as you can, that you purchase the newest version of the Ball Blue Book, and that you educate yourself as thoroughly as possible about the risks and precautions regarding home food preservation. Then you can decide what risks you are willing to take and what practices you may (or may not) want to change.

Good luck. I am a new lover of this hobby and I hope you have a great time with it.

Ann

Thank you everyone for your comments. I have been canning for over 20 years and use all three processes in my canning..pressure cooking, waterbathing and open-kettle, depending on what the produce is and what needs to be done to it. In the thousands of meals I have served my family, no one has ever gotten sick from my canning. However, when we took our son to college last year,all it took was one pizza from a local shop to give him food poisoning so bad he ended up in the hospital.My husband was so sick he was incapable of driving the seven hour trip home. It just goes to show that all our food sources need to be scrutinized!
I really do enjoy the canning and preserving process. It is a hobby that even though it takes alot of hard work,provides a great sense of satisfaction to me. I'm looking forward to being part of this forum. Marian

Sorry to hear about your family's illness. You never truly know the cleanliness of a restaurant or its employees when you decide to eat there. We have A B C ratings for establishments here, which helps but it's not foolproof.

marian, I agree, restaurant food is much more dangerous than anything I can. Not only restaurants either, there's currently a big media splash about not eating bagged spinach, one person has already died from the e coli.

I've been canning for over 40 years, but I don't open kettle can anything except one batch of dill pickles which I give to my father. He insists and I'm just too tired to argue with him and I don't like dill pickles anyway so I don't have to eat them. He tries to convince me that "anything with all that vinegar won't spoil", but I always remember my aunt's pickled mushrooms that sent several family members to the hospital with food poisoning. They had "all that vinegar" too, but he's 75 and can make his own choices. Besides, when he makes up his mind there is no sense in confusing him with the facts. LOL

I'm pretty careful, although I think open kettle canning jams and jellies is probably the safest of the foods you could choose to do that with. If they are moldy or smell bad, you know they're spoiled and you throw them away. I jut don't like to take that chance of losing food that I have time and money into, so I waterbath them too.

Annie

Salmonella seems to be a big problem with fast food services. Sometimes the kids who serve this stuff have that illness and don't even know it. I have never open kettle processed anything and would never even think of doing it for any kind of canning. Even though I do a vacuum process that requires no heat, its only done with a straight 5% vinegar and salt brine used to pickle my pepperoncini peppers. Last years batch had some added garlic on the jars too, that made them even tastier .

Marian,
I am a "former" open kettle canner myself, but since I started giving my canned produce as gifts I feel better knowing it's been processed properly so I've turned to BWB's for all of my processing. I have been toying with the idea of getting a pressure canner so I can process non acid produce and soups. (I have limited freezer space)
Karen

Boy, I have been thinking on this all week. Finally decided how and what I can is done safely and works for our family. I probably won't be changing any of my techniques anytime soon although it is good to hear others opinions though. I am rethinking some of my procedures and how I can make them even more sterile and clean.(I am very cautious already..just thought I'd throw that in!)
I also decide that since I am apparently a canning dinosaur that I'm not going to offer any opinions on processing to others.I am looking forward to sharing the tidbits though.. new recipes, joys and disasters!

Marian, welcome to the club. Another poster and I regularly refer to ourselves (at least to each other) as "dinosaurs", we are both over 50 and learned to can during our childhood. LOL

Another dinosaur, makes it look like we aren't extinct after all.

Annie

Canosaurous???

Hi Marian,

I've been thinking about your post all week. First let me say, I don't open kettle can, although it's not really because I view it as a safety issue. We just don't hot pack much, and obviously you do need to hot pack, or open kettle canning doesn't work. Also, I am such a dinosaur that I use paraffin on jam. We do this because it allows us to recycle jars of all types, and don't need to wonder if the jars will come back. That being said, the few times I have open kettle canned, I wasn't really impressed with the tightness of seal that I got. Since you don't have problems with spoilage or sealing, you obviously have your technique down and work quickly enough so that you don't have problems. Just call me a slow moving dinosaur.

I should add that from your posts, you also clearly know what product is appropriate for an open kettle technique (high acid foods only). As Carol noted, with jams and jellies, you are only really at risk from mold and yeast. That's pretty much true of all high acid foods. The acid level is what keeps you safe from bacteria, not water bathing.

The broad brush statement about having done nothing to preserve the food isn't quite accurate. You've sterilized your jars, you've cooked your product, presumably to boiling temperatures or even hotter, prior to putting it in the jar, and you've worked quickly enough to get a good seal. Your product is a high acid food either originally or by adding acid in some form or other, so you are taking advantage of the fact that bacteria generally don't grow in an acid environment. You are at risk from mold or yeast, which grow happily in an acid environment, but the cooking should have taken care of that problem, and now your only real concern is whether any stray mold or yeast has gotten into the jar between the time you put the product in and when the jar seals. The extra step of water bathing should protect you from this problem, but it certainly doesn't guarantee it. Sometimes jars don't seal, and sometimes the seal gives out later on. Sometimes your product ferments and pops the seal. You can see mold, and you can certainly see (and smell) a fermenting jar, and you're really not at risk from them in terms of illness. I personally have come to the conclusion that the current recommendation against open kettle canning has more to do with thrift than safety.

Petro

marian, welcome to the forum!

I'm pretty much a canning spring chicken myself, having only started a few years ago at nearly age 40. My family are city folk and even my grandmother didn't can (she did it reluctantly during the war, my mom says), so it's all new and exciting to me.

Because it's so new to me and because I'm a bookish type by nature, I did a lot of research on canning methods & risks when I started --- including some Internet searches that brought me to this forum, for which I've been very grateful! It's been a source of wisdom, advice, recipes, support, and fun for me, and I'm looking forward to seeing you on it as well.

I open-kettle canned a few batches of stuff when I first started out, following directions in old books. I've occasionally done a batch of jam that way since, and am not too concerned about the risks of fruit products that way, since, as has been said above several times, if there's a problem with jams it is usually mold, which you can see (at least, you can see it if it gets bad, and it isn't fatal if you don't).

From what I've read, I also would probably feel comfortable canning pickles (though I don't make many of those anyway) without processing. Tomato products and the risk of botulism seem to be the bellwether. While the risk is theoretically there, I have been unable to find any evidence of ANY cases of botulism, at least in Canada, from home-canned tomato products. Many old Italian folk in Toronto have been canning them "the old way" for generations with no problems.

But I've decided to process all my tomato products because I don't find it very much trouble to do it, while the consequences of botulism poisoning, however rare it may be, are SO unpleasant the trade-off seems worthwhile to me.

Just my 2 cents.

Glad to "meet" you, and welcome!

Zabby

Wow,
You all have made me feel better about this forum! I like the "canosaurus" reference.I originally was looking for some information on canning soups and ran into this forum..so it's nice to hear from kindred spirit. There a few people I know that can and fewer still in my age group(I'm 42). Sometimes I get tired hearing how "I'm wasting my time..and "it's cheaper to buy it".Grr! This is a topic for an entire new thread...I've done the research to prove both are false statements! If any of you are wondering.Yes. It is cheaper to can even taking into your consideration of time. Okay. I'm off track, so I think I'll just close!
Marian

Marian,
I don't really think cost or time are the issue. For me it is knowing what went into the jars and that it tastes better. I just turned 40 this year. My mom thinks I'm a little goofy but doesn't turn down the bounty. Luckily, the gals I've met here think it is really cool and want me to teach them. Welcome to canning addiction central.
Melly

Hi Melly,
Yes.. I realize that.I figured all the costs vs. time thing out so I have one more thing to support my choices in canning, gardening and preserving to those that nay-say me.I am glad that I know what is put into the food we eat and how I do have control over it. I'm glad we are able to eat basically organic food without the pesticides, etc. that is found on a larger scale.And mostly, it is for the taste. There just is no comparison to that. Our home-canned tastes SO much better than store-bought!
In fact, when doing my "non-scientific" scientific research into costs and time, I bought canned pears and used my children as guinea pigs for taste. The 1 cup of fruit yielded 9 slices of which we divided three ways. One child tried and immediately headed for the garbage can and spit out..the next took one bite and refused to finish the serving, and I ate the third serving just to see how bad it must be. Both said, "Please don't make us eat those again!" Yes, I am so glad we can! Blessings, Marian

Marian, I grow my own produce and can it for the same reasons, I didn't want to feed my children all the pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and other things unpronouncable that go onto our commerically available food. In addition, of course, to the percentage of "particulate matter", residue that is allowable in commercial products. Now I don't want my grandkids to eat them either. I just turned 51 this year and have been canning for over 40 years, so I'm spoiled by the quality of my own food.

I've taken it one step further and have my own grass fed beef, my own pork, and chickens for eggs.

My kids are much like your kids, they don't even like the "store bought" stuff. My grandson will eat anything, but my 3 year old granddaughter refuses to eat commercial applesauce, she only wants "UmmMa's".

Annie

Marian, I'm curious as to what you figured into the costs?

Putting aside all the good reasons to can our own foods (quality, health, variety, fun, getting to tease each other, etc.), the fact is it is impossible to can your own less expensively than buying commercially. Not if you include _all_ the cost figures.

More to the point, I don't see any need to justify your better lifestyle to those who aren't interested in the benefits of living that way. No doubt, those who are nay-saying are more concerned with convenience than anything else. Without knowing them I'd still give 12:7 odds that given a choice between preparing a home-cooked meal and taking the kids to McDonalds, they'lll opt for a Happy Meal every time.

In short, they are half-right. It is cheaper to buy it. But wasting your time? Far from it.

Annie,
How awesome you are able to provide your meats for your self as well. We have chickens for laying, raised meat chickens and have in the past raised a few pigs.Unfortunately, we live in a small town and while it is not illegal to have farm animals, we've always had to be extremely careful in raising our animals. That means no free-ranging chickens :( and pigs that completely secured in a small pen in the barn. Our predators aren't foxes and weasels but the stupid neighborhood dogs the owners don't restrain.
Gardenlad,
Thanks for the reassurance. You make a very valid point.
I loosely figured my costs based on what I have put into preserving the food...cost of food, if any, lids, sugar etc. I added a generous figure for my water and gas usage. I didn't figure in the costs of equipment. Alot of what we own was given to us or the cost paid for itself years ago.
Any how, I figured my costs on price per cup of preserved produce and compared it to the cost per cup of storebought.
For example, my cost per cup to preserve sliced pears was approximately .18. Storebrand is 1.19.
Anyhow, this is probably all a moot point.It just makes me feel better at least thinking I'm saving the family money and providing a better product. Marian

Part of that is a no-brainer that doesn't require thinking about. You are providing your family with a better product.

And, at base, that's what counts.

Cost accounting can get to be kind of hairy, and I won't go into all the details because I'm tired of arguing the point (try discussing this with people who insist they save money by growing their own veggies!!!) But, as just one example, you talk about your water and gas. That's fine. What about the lights that are burning in the kitchen, though? Have you applied any of that to those pears? If you grow your own, what about the time and costs involved in the growing and harvesting effort?

See what I mean. It's very rare that when this subject comes up people understand what the cost factors are.

Nor should it matter. The fact is, you are not running a business and do not have to cost justify what you do. There are so many more meaningful benefits to canning your own (and growing your own) that the cost really becomes irrelevent.

Heh heh. I have to giggle at this because we have often commented that our home-grown veggies probably cost about five times what store bought would! This summer we had a major drought and had to water the garden every day. I haven't bothered to calculate the cost of water, but it would have been plenty. Plus the four strands of electric fence (solar powered - do I have to figure the cost of the sun?) to keep deer out, the metal fence to keep raccoons out, the posts for said fences, the gas to run the tractor to till, etc. Some of this will of course decrease over time, but still - I think my corn costs about $2 an ear!

But it is well worth it.

In certain respects costs are irrelevant. Why should it be necessary to justify home food preservation in terms of the cost?

What is the value of a healthy, life-affirming avocation? People pay for ski tickets and all the accouterments of skiing (no small expense) simply for the pleasure of the thing. Can we not say the same?

My DH is a disabled veteran. He would argue that his garden keeps him sane. Hard to put a price on that.

What is the value of raising children who know and respect the fruits of the earth? Who understand the cycle of the seasons, even life and death because they have seen it enacted each year?

How do we put a price on the pleasure of something as simple as peeling peaches with our mothers or fathers, of giving children a healthy and life-affirming opportunity to share in a multi-generational activity?

And what is the value of sitting down at the table mid-winter, knowing the food we eat is the product of our own effort? To know the seed, the soil, the fruit, the vegetable, the water, even the weather - intimately?

Carol

Nah, you can skip the direct cost of the sun.

But, hmmmmmmm? What about replacement cost? :>)

Carol, I agree. As hobbies and recreation go, canning is relatively inexpensive and produce a usable end product.

For me, it's also a link to my past and a link to my future. I can stand in my kitchen making applesauce, with my 3 year old granddaughter turning the crank on the old squeezo and know I'm making memories that will last her lifetime. Simultaneously, I'm canning in Grandma's old canner and I smile and think of canning with Grandma every time I hear the lids "ping", and I know Makayla will remember picking the apples from my trees and making them into cider and sauce. As the commercials say, "priceless".

And I've got the pictures to prove it:

{{gwi:943788}}

Annie

Definitely PRICELESS!

With all those curls, she looks just about like my daughter did at that age.
A long time ago.................

Here's a current picture:

{{gwi:943790}}

Yep, she'll be 21 in a couple of weeks and is getting married in April.
Part of me misses the "little one". But I'm am trying to be patient and wait for grandkids. Not easy. :+)
Deanna

Priceless and beautiful!

I think we all recognize the same thing, price really doesn't matter. Unlike so many of you, I did not learn this hobby alongside my mother or grandmother. Both of them did some canning, but I don't think my mother enjoyed it - I think she was a typical over-worked mother trying to raise four children and care for her own mother. My grandmother probably did enjoy it, and I very mightily wish I had spent time both canning and cooking with her, but I was not interested at the time.

So anyway, when I started two years ago, with applesauce and peaches, I discovered such a feeling of contentment to bring something to fruit (in the case of the apples), make a product myself, and be able to eat it during the winter. Exactly as you all said. Even if I have to buy the produce (such as peaches), I make an effort to seek out the very best (the sweet man who brings them from Colorado or Idaho and sells them here). It is good for the soul.

Annie,
My oldest will definitely have memories of the find the buggiest apple game she played with me while making apple butter. (I had another bucket of buggy apples delivered today from my neighbor, along with some green pears.) I love both those pictures. As homework today, my 5 year old had to pick out a photo of herself as a baby to bring to school. This is the one she chose. It is from 4 years ago, right before we moved from Hawaii. The flowers were from the plumeria tree in our front yard.

Deanna, your daughter is beautiful! My Amanda, mother of Makayla and Bud will be 24 in just a couple of weeks. It happens fast, doesn't it?

Melly, make all the memories you can. Just like that baby in the stroller became a 5 year old overnight, soon you're gonna be shopping for Prom Dresses, then Wedding Dresses. It happens before you even know it, I swear.

In the meantime, make applesauce and listen for the "ping" of the lids. We have to have the next generation of canners trained and ready...

Annie

This past summer, I involved my 3 year old granddaughter in my canning projects. Rachel loves "Grandma's green beans" and will eat a pint jar by herself. Over the summer, I'd gone to my daughter's house for dinner and she came up and asked me if I brought any green beans. I hadn't and it almost broke my heart. (Denise says she won't touch a bean out of a can from the store.) So when I made a batch of vegetable soup, I set her up and showed her how to snap the green beans. She snapped every bean while I prepped the other veggies. When I gave her a jar to take home, she was so proud of how she helped Grandma. When my significant other and I did peaches, she sat at the table with us and sprinkled the fruit fresh. While I made the syrup and packed the jars, she and my SO made peach shakes out of the peelings. She still talks about the "slumber party" at Grandma's and she gets milk shakes "only when Jim's there". (Jim is referred to as the "milkshake master")

You're all right--there's nothing like giving them memories like that.

I agree with the general opinion that the results of veggie gardening and canning are, of course, priceless.

But regarding the monetary ost of canning and gardening, there are various ways to calculate it, none of them the one "right" way. I've edited a lot of accounting books, enough to know that you can approach things in several ways (in terms of whether, for example, you "should" include a portion of the cost of lighting your kitchen). GAAP (generally accepted accounting principles) allow for different approaches depending on the particular circumstances, the goal of the organization, etc. --- the main thing is that you need to keep to the SAME method, or make allowances if you switch, so that you (and your shareholders/family) can make comparisons.

Accounting is a decision-making tool, not a set of absolute rules handed down from On High.

One example: if you count part of the cost of things you have anyway and use otherwise (say, a shovel for my garden, which I would need even if I only grew flowers), yes, it is reasonable to "charge" part of that cost to my veggie growing --- BUT if I do that, then at the same time, the cost of my other hobby, growing flowers, becomes cheaper by that amount. So the overall cost of my life doesn't go up if I start using that shovel to grow veggies. Therefore the most useful approach usually is to leave out costs of things that you would have incurred anyway.

Another example: opportunity cost. If you factor in what you WOULD be spending if you DIDN'T can/garden, things get interesting. Here's where we put Carol's "if I didn't garden I would go insane." It's reasonable in GAAP to deduct, say, the cost of therapy you avoid, or of ski trips you'd be taking or movies you'd be seeing with the time you spend canning instead!

Mind you, in my case, as a freelancer with some control over my schedule, I should probably factor in the lost hours of work I could have been doing sometimes when I get caught up in the kitchen instead....

But the bottom line, of course, is that GAAP has NO opinion on the value of making peach-raspberry freezer jam with my 10-year-old niece this summer. In a visit in which we'd been to a zoo and the beach and done many other cool things, that was the first one she reported on when she called home to her dad: "Papa! On a fait des confitures!" She made a unique label for each little jar. I saved the one from the jar she left with me, and wouldn't sell it for anything.

Zabby

The first time another kid from school visited my house, he whispered to my son insistently while he was eating his homemade cookie. Apparently, he did not know one could make their own cookies. Funnily enough, my son was just as surprised to learn one could buy them at the store. Like most of you, I do it out of love, out of interest and for the taste. I do it for a living now, and I can tell you it pays to grow your own veggies. This year, because it was the first year of the store, I missed out planting the garden and had to buy all my stuff, herbs, tomatoes, pickles. Ouch! Also, I had to buy lots of new things to cook, and all the bills I pay at the store are paid by the jams and food I make. Yes, it pays the bills so I guess I believe it is cheaper to make your own than to buy. But the taste, that is something you cannot buy at any store, so I guess no matter what, I would can anyway. Maman, tu fais les meilleures confitures... is why I am canning.

Marie

I don't imagine things are different in Canada, Zabby. In the U.S. there are 7 sets of GAAPs. And, as you say, the idea is to be consistent in how you apply them.

However, "So the overall cost of my life doesn't go up if I start using that shovel to grow veggies." doesn't ring true in this case. We are not measuring the total cost of your life. We are trying to make a comparison between the costs of a home-canned jar of something with what it costs to buy that something. So, in this case, you have to include all those bits and pieces in order to compare like to like.

There's also another aspect we haven't begun to look at: Cost of possession. When you are buying things you generally buy for immediate needs, or maintain a very small inventory. But when you home can, you maintain a relatively large inventory of that item. So, if we are going to cost account those jars, cost of possession (generally figured at 2-2 1/2%/month) should be applied.

The fact is, most opportunity costs are unrealistic. Sure, if you weren't canning you could spend that time on a ski trip. But would your _really_ make that trip? Probably not.

If you weren't storing those jars, however, that cupboard space _would_ be used for something else. So cost of possession becomes a real factor.

All in all, I stick by my two contentions:

Number one: You cannot can food less expensively than you can buy it.

Number two: Who cares? We can for all sorts of great reasons, and actual cost hardly enters into it.

> I don't imagine things are different in Canada, Zabby.

Actually, there are some significant differences, which is why there's work for me on accounting texts here, most of which are adaptations of U.S. books. But the overriding principles we're arguing about are universal.
> In the U.S. there are 7 sets of GAAPs.

I don't know any accountants who talks of "sets of GAAPs" --- they're not like the ten commandments, but a large body of principles and customs.

> However, "So the overall cost of my life doesn't go up if I start using that shovel to grow veggies." doesn't ring true in this case. We are not measuring the total cost of your life. We are trying to make a comparison between the costs of a home-canned jar of something with what it costs to buy that something. So, in this case, you have to include all those bits and pieces in order to compare like to like.

Ah, but here is where I think your logic is truly faulty. As I said, accounting is a decision-making tool. It helps businesses make decisions about their finances, governments make decisions about how much tax to charge you, and people make decisions about what to do with their money, time, etc. (though of course it's not the only or even the most important factor in those decisions, as we have all agreed in the case of canning and gardening).

So accounting helps you ask various questions and get answers that compare things.

Now, you seem to be asking the question "How much does it cost a company, starting from building the factory, to make and sell a can of tomatoes, vs. how much it costs a person, starting with absolutely nothing, to make a can of tomatoes?" As an academic exercise, it may be interesting, but it's irrelevant to most real situations.

The question I was talking about is the useful one: what is the overall extra cost (or savings) to my life is I can veggies instead of buying them?

If I already own a shovel to grow my flowers with, that shovel has been already "paid for" out of my "growing flowers as a hobby" cost centre in my life. If I "charge" some of it to my canning cost centre, then I'm double expensing it --- a no-no according to GAAP in any country.

> There's also another aspect we haven't begun to look at: Cost of possession. When you are buying things you generally buy for immediate needs, or maintain a very small inventory.

Not necessarily. I know plenty of people who buy canned goods by the caseload from Costco or Price Club. But the general point is true that there is a cost of maintaining inventory --- though it can't be generalized to a particular percentage for most situations. It depends a great deal on how the inventory is managed and where it's kept. (That cost is much higher, for e.g., in places where space is expensive, or for goods that require special circumstances --- so the cost of possession was way higher for things I stored frozen in the city than for a canned good in my larger small-town home.)

A much bigger often-uncounted cost by many people is the land --- I would have bought a home with a smaller yard if I hadn't known I wanted a veggie garden. So part of my mortgage every month should reasonably be costed to my veggies. On the other hand, the veggies I grew in Toronto were in my BF's backyard which he wasn't using anyway, so it would have been UNreasonable to apply the space cost there. It's comparable to, say, vacant land that a municipality donates to a company to help entice them to move to that municipality.

SImilarly, one's labour time should be charged only if, realistically, one would have been making money if one wasn't canning. (In my case this is sometimes true.) If one does it for sheer joy, then it's comparable to volunteer labour.

> The fact is, most opportunity costs are unrealistic. Sure, if you weren't canning you could spend that time on a ski trip. But would your _really_ make that trip? Probably not.

Opportunity costs are hard to measure, because who can say for sure what one WOULD have done? But they are absolutely real, and companies that ignore them in their accounting make worse decisions. In the case of many people who regard canning as a hobby, if they weren't canning, tney'd be doing something else recreational, very possibly something that costs money.

> Number one: You cannot can food less expensively than you can buy it.

Well, the main difference between us probably really is that I think you're using a definition of "less expensively" that is irrelevant to the question most people trying to make this calculation are actually asking --- and I mean quite apart from including the whole "priceless experience" factor. One that I suspect would, in fact, be rejected by an auditor.

Even under my definitions, mind you, I think many people, probably including me, don't save money by canning. But I think some people do.

Sigh. I am tired of arguing this one, too, GL, and I don't actually have any expectation you will change your mind; the only reason I am bothering, is that actual cost, in a realistic, practical sense, DOES enter into it for some folks. (I have one friend, for example, who canned fruit during grad school to save money.)

And for those people who might want or really need to economize in this way, it's not helpful to say categorically it can't be done, nor to claim that some supposed "rule" of accounting means they "have" to count certain things as costs that don't make sense in the real situation. It shows a misunderstanding (all too common) of what accounting actually means.

> Number two: Who cares? We can for all sorts of great reasons, and actual cost hardly enters into it.

For me it sure doesn't, I am 100% with you on that!
And we do agree on the main thing that the experience and great product are the most important, for us.

Z