Clearly "lightly" isn't working. The Saran Wrap isn't sufficient.

Do you have a brine bag or plate on the top of the crock holding down the pickles? Take any suitably large Ziploc bag, fill it with the same brine as you're using on the cukes (so if there's unexpected leakage it doesn't damage the fermentation) and put it over the cucumbers. (Hopefully you have enough room to add this.)

The brine bag will conform to the shape of the crock. Keeping out the additional air will reduce scum and should help prevent flies. I didn't know they were pickle fans!

Carol

Carol,

Thank you for your response.

I have an inverted ceramic dinner plate submerged in the brine to keep the cucumbers down. (Note: the plate fills with the gases as they bubble up, so I have found that if I tilt the plate a bit or the whole crock a bit, daily, it relieves that built-up gas.) I have a mason jar filled with water on top of that plate. And, the whole thing is covered over with Saran Wrap.

You're right. "Lightly" doesn't seem to be doing the trick. I just did my daily skimming (and, another fruit fly was in there!), so I replaced the wrap with new and sealed it "tightly" this time. I had wondered why they specified "lightly" in the directions, anyway.... My inclination would have been more toward "tightly".

Everything seems to be progressing very well. I tasted a bit of the brine, today, and it is DIVINE!! I can't till they're ready. In future fermentations, I will probably fill the crock lower, and tie off the bag. (I used an enormous aluminum pot which I lined with a turkey-brining bag as my fermentation vessel. I could have pulled the bag together at the top and tied it off with a twisty, had I realized that bugs could be a problem.)

The crock looks like it's filled too high to handle a Ziploc bag, right now, but I like the idea for future fermentations.

This is surprisingly exciting! I love that Alton Brown talks about this as "Good food gone bad, in a good way." It's intentional "rotting" for the best of outcomes.

For anyone who is interested, I shall post updates on this thread. When the pickles are done, I'd like to try sour kraut, next.

Thank you, again, Carol, and warm regards,

John Scott Smith

Please do post updates. Fermented pickles are something I greatly enjoy, but don't get to make very often. I'll enjoy yours vicariously.

Some fermented pickle instructions say to cover the crock with clean towel. That would probably keep the fruit flies out efficiently.

Jim

I use a towel. For me it's a plate topped with a brine bag covered with a towel. (The clean is a given, but I guess someone somewhere writing these directions thinks without them the first thing picklers would do is grab a dirty towel.)

Every time I skim I remove the plate, clean it and then re-insert into the brine.

Carol

"(The clean is a given, but I guess someone somewhere writing these directions thinks without them the first thing picklers would do is grab a dirty towel.)"

LOL! That struck me funny too, even as I was going right ahead and unquestioningly quoting the advice. Be sure the towel is clean, John. :-)

Jim

You know, I had read about the towel, before, and assumed that since my basement was dark, I wouldn't need it (having assumed that it was to protect against light...) Oops. I shall enlist the assistance of a hand towel, tomorrow morning.

On the upside: this does not seem to have been several fruit flies. Instead I believe that it was one rouge fly, determined to access my brine. Once he met his demise at my own hands, I have seen no more flies...Of course my worries are that "he" may well have been a "she". Updates on that eventuality to follow.

I have a question. When I am skimming, I don't seem to be able to get all of it. Is that a problem? Are there more efficient methods of skimming? I've been using a small strainer that I dip in and wipe off the yeast (what I suppose to be yeast, anyway) off the top, rinse it, and go, again.

Update: the smell is like a good pickle, but much more faint of a smell.

Thank you both for your help, on this. It is a bit nerve-wracking without a video or something to show me that what is going on is "normal" and your feedback is very reassuring.

John Scott Smith

I know. I'm remembering my first batch of pickles and how helpful my MIL was when I'd ask my obsessive questions. (My family was into wine-making, not pickling. Still fermentation but with somewhat different goals, LOL.)

Anyway, remove as much scum as you can and don't worry about what remains. There is a good argument that scum isn't that much of a problem as long as you don't see mold.

Carol

Two weeks in. I just replaced the plate and took out one pickle for testing. (Recipes recommend to test after two weeks.) This one is now soft. University of Georgia says to discard if they become "If the pickles become soft, slimy, or develop a disagreeable odor, discard them." I fear this batch is a total loss... :(

Update to the update. I took out another one. It, too, seems "soft" although not overly so. No slime. Smell is very good. Sliced both pickles. They do not look done, but definitely look like pickles (some parts still look more white than translucent). I tasted one bite, and it tastes quite good. I resisted the urge to taste anymore before I heard back from everyone. What is meant by "soft"? Pickles are generally much softer than the firm cucumbers that I put into the brine two weeks ago.
Note: when I first prepared the brine, I had forgotten to add the vinegar (this recipe calls for half cup of vinegar per gallon of water.) I poured the correct amount of vinegar over the top, so I didn't get mixed as well as it could have. Since the recipes said that it's purpose was to change the pH, I though that it would be fine.

Am I ok to proceed, or pitch the whole thing?

John Scott Smith

The ideal would be that you could break one in half and there will be a snap. So in that regard your pickles fall short. But if they taste and smell good, they're still quite edible and probably far richer in flavor than what you could buy.

How old were your cucumbers when you began fermentation? That's my first thought.

Carol

So, do you think that they are safe to eat? (Although, they still have, presumably, another week to go.)

The smaller of the two pickles that I took out probably would have snapped, but not as firm as the Claussen ones in the refrigerator section (though, these taste much better.) The bigger one was soft, but not what I would call "mushy".

My worry was safety. As long as I survive this first attempt, I can always work on improving quality next time.

One of my atempts a couple of months ago, ended up in soft and mushy (watery) cukes. I attributed it to insufficient salt in the brine. Salt is very necssary to draw out the water from the cukes. If it gets too diluted due to the releasing of water inside the cukes, that can affect the whole batch in the same diluted brine. Mine are only partially fermented, but after 3 weeks in the fridge, they were not very good taste and texture wise, and were tossed. This was when I wasn't able to easily detect the amount of salt needed. Obviosuly very fresh pickling cukes are necessary. Even if yours appear to be 'safe', there can still be a build up of a toxin, that may taint the rest. Unforteately, there is nothing you can do after the fermenting has taken place, but if your recipe has measurements for the amount of water and salt, I suggest that you increase the salt slightly. It all depends on how much brine you started with, so post your water/salt amounts if possible. Always use pickling salt too. I use a partial mix from Mrs. Wages, Their quick process dill pickle mix. It works for me and gives a nice bold dill flavor even when only used as a salt brine dill. Yesterday, I made vinegar based dills with a mix and added about 3 big cloves of garlic cut up, as well a several dill seed heads, both brown and green.

"Soft" means soft in comparison to pickles, not in comparison to cucumbers. Naturally, pickles are less firm than cucumbers. And, of course, pickles vary in firmness too. If the pickles become spoiled, you will have no doubt about their softness. They will be unappetizingly so.

I don't know of the fermentation process ever having produced a toxic result if normal procedures were followed. I believe the worst it can do is produce an undesireable product. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Jim

I might have overstated that toxic issue, but with a low salt content in a brine and, the cukes not getting a full fermentation due to lower salt content, its going to cause problems, with taste, and texure, as well as being prone to spoilage if they are just refrigerated for a long time.

Yes, they're safe to eat. Taste and smell can be trusted when it comes to fermented pickles. Believe me, if they were spoiled you'd know it. The odor would probably run you out of the house. Or you'd see nasty mold, which isn't the case.

If it's soft in comparison to a commercial pickle, that may be part of the problem. Commercial picklers may use firming agents while home fermenters don't.

The other possibility, as I mentioned, is that the cucumbers (or some of them) might not have been perfectly fresh. Did you pick them or buy them?

Carol

I LOVE this forum! I run out to Home Depot for a little bit, and come home to this much feedback and advice. Thank you!!!

Ok. These cucumbers were picked less than an hour before we started cleaning and brining them. It was our organic CSA, and they held a Sunday of Pick-Your-Own. They were all firm and very fresh.

My recipe was:
20 lbs cucumbers, 3 to 6 inches long

3/4 cup whole mixed pickling spice

2 to 3 bunches fresh dill (about 30 heads)

2 cups white vinegar

1 3/4 cups pickling salt

2 ½ gallons water

from http://www.foodpres.com/fermpic.htm.htm

I roughly halved the recipe. The cucumbers were of varying sizes and thicknesses since we made two batches of Ball Blue Book Bread and Butters and one batch of Sandwich Cucumbers, then took all of the remaining cukes, weighed them, and made my fermented ones.

As i said, the flavor was VERY good, no bad smell, softer than I had expected, and combine that my natural paranoia and I was a little scared. No one in my family has ever done these, so I am learning from what I've read and from all of you.

OK, that answers one question. How about temperature? If temperature exceeded the optimal range pickles may still cure but also soften.

Carol

Temperature stayed between 72-75 degrees Fahrenheit, and almost every reading that I took in the basement said 73 degrees.

I cut about one quarter of an inch off of the blossom ends of each of the cukes when preparing them, too.

Two thoughts:

One, I packed the cukes a little tightly when I began in order to keep them from floating later on in the process. Perhaps that is a problem for keeping proper texture in the finished product?

Two, I pressed the plate down every day to make sure that everything stayed down since the inverted plate filled with gas. Maybe the pushing down is a bad thing?

The pickles seem to want to float much more, now, than when I first packed them. When I take off the plate, some will come all the way out of the brine, lifted from beneath by other cucumbers. Is that also a typical thing?

John Scott Smith

Is the vinegar added when making the brine?? Mine isn't, as its just salt an water and a 2-3 day partial ferment, then a couple of tablespoons of vinegar to STOP the fermentaion.

I should have added the procedure instead of just the ingredients.

Yes, the vinegar is supposed to be added when making the brine (although, I had messed up and forgotten to add the vinegar when mixing it up. I realized my mistake after pouring the brine over the cukes, but before putting the whole thing in the basement, so I simply poured the vinegar into the crock, but was unable to stir it well. From my reading, it looks like the intention is to alter the pH to make the brine more favorable for the desired bacteria.)

Here is the procedure from the directions at http://www.foodpres.com/fermpic.htm.htm

In a large sink, gently wash cucumbers to remove field dirt with cold water. Do not bruise. Remove any blossoms.

Use a 5-gallon food grade plastic pail (ask a restaurant for their pail that held catsup or mayo) or a traditional stone pickling crock for the fermentation container. You may need two containers for this entire recipe. The recipe can be halved or quartered to meet your needs. Place half the pickle spices and a layer of dill in the bottom of the container. Add whole cucumbers to within 4 inches of the top. Place a layer of dill and the remaining spices on top of cucumbers. Thoroughly mix the vinegar, salt, and water and pour over the cucumbers. If there is not enough of this liquid to be at least 2" over the cucumbers, make up more using the same proportions.

Put a glass pie plate or other heavy non-metal plate or lid on top of the cucumbers to hold them all under the liquid. If the plate is not heavy enough to keep them under, place a clean heavy non-metal object on top of the plate. (I use a rock that has been through the dishwasher for this.) Cover the crock loosely with plastic wrap under a clean cloth. Keep pickles in a cool room; 65 - 72 F degrees is ideal.

Check the crock daily and remove any skum and mold. Do not leave uncovered more than necessary and use clean utensils to remove skum so you are not introducing more molds. Do not stir the pickles. Skum and molds usually start forming in 3 to 5 days. Start tasting the cucumbers to see how the fermentation is progressing after 2 weeks.

In about 3 weeks, the cucumbers will have an olive-green color. Remove one from the crock, slice it and taste. The cross section should be entirely translucent; indicating brine has replaced the original air in the cells. The flavor should be that of a good dill pickle. If your fermentation room has been 50 - 60 F and the pickles do not taste acid enough, then the fermentation is not complete and you need to keep skimming it and checking it for another week or two. If you were not able to keep the crock in a room below 72 degrees, the fermentation may need to be stopped after only 2 weeks. These will not be top quality flavor pickles, but the flavor in these fast fermentations will only deteriorate as time goes on; stop them at their peak.

To halt the fermentation, the cucumbers must go through a heat treatment. Heat softens foods and pickles are not exception, so follow directions carefully to have the crispest, safe pickles possible.

Pack cucumbers into jars that have just been through the dishwasher. Leave them upside down in the racks until you are ready to fill each one. Add several heads of fresh dill to each jar. Bring the brine to a boil and pour over the cucumbers leaving ½ inch head space. If you run out of brine, make some fresh (1/2 cup salt, 4 cups vinegar, and 1 gal. water), and process in a boiling water canner for 10 minutes for pints and 15 minutes for quarts.

If you plan on displaying these pickles or entering them in a fair, you may wish to pack them in fresh brine as the fermentation brine will be cloudy, however the fermentation brine contains the excellent flavors of fermentation and using it results in a better flavor pickle. Note that the replacement brine you make at the end of the fermentation process has more vinegar than the original brine you made; this is because during fermentation acids were produced by microorganisms.

I didn't see the mention of trimming off the blossom end. When I make similar, I trim off the ends tips of both ends. This aids in the cukes absorbing brine faster.

I have dome my first batch of brine pickles this year. I have had them in the brine for over a week now, and I haven't noticed any "scum". All I see floating is some of the pickling spice. Is this possible, or did I do something worng? What should the scum look like? I figured I'd know it when I saw it, but I haven't seen anything yet.

I have them in a crock, submirged in brine with a plate on top of them, and a jar full of water holding that down, and a clean (not dirty) towel over the top. They smell very good too.

Thanks in advance!

Justin

Sunday's post DID mention he trimmed the blossom end.

I am reading carefully as I have a batch of fully fermented pickles going as well. Different recipe (Linda Lou posted...I think).

Fermented Dill Pickles Refrigerated "Clausen" Type (2006, Really Good!)
1 Gallon Jar
Pickling Cucumbers
12 Fresh Dill Flower heads, or
2 Tbsp Dried dill weed and
2 Tbsp. Dried dill seed
10 to 12 Cloves Garlic
6 to 8 Peppercorns
1/4 Cup Vinegar
1/2 Cup Salt
1 1/2 Quarts Water
In 1 gallon jar add pickling cucumbers Rinse but do not wash the cucumbers. Add Dill
flower heads or dried dill weed and seed, garlic, peppercorns, and vinegar. Dissolve
salt in water and add to jar. Fill jar the remaining way with water. Add weight to
keep cucumbers under brine.
Fermentation sequence
1. Clear brine no cloudiness for 1 to 3 days
2. Cloudy brine with gas formation, 2-3 days
3. Cloudy brine no gas formation, 5 to 6 days
Pickles ready to eat after 10-11 days.
Refrigerate pickles if you do not want to process them.
To process the pickles
Fill clean, sterilized quart jars with pickles to within 1/2inch of the top. Wipe,
seal, and process in a hot water bath for 15 minutes. Remove and place on towel in a
draft free area. Let jars stand for 12 hours. Label and date. Store in a dark, cool
area.

I am wondering why the difference in time? My recipe says they are ready after 10-11 days and the one above takes 3 weeks?!?!??

Can anyone explain?

And one other question, I can see something that looks like a vinegar "mother" floating near the top pickles, but under the brine bag. Scum? Mold? Part of the natural process? Do I need to remove it?

I love having them in a clear container so I can SEE! :+)

Deanna (back to reading, I didn't mean to steal your thread john_scott)

Deanna, not at all! I had hoped that this would turn into a conversation from which I could benefit, and that seems to be exactly what it has become.

I am envious of your clear container...I have to go digging down in there to find out what the score is. ;)

John Scott Smith

To process the pickles
Fill clean, sterilized quart jars with pickles to within 1/2inch of the top. Wipe,
seal, and process in a hot water bath for 15 minutes. Remove and place on towel in a
********************************************

you are missing adding liquid to the jars and maybe the dill etc. Can you fix the recipe.

It got late on me last night so I didn't do anything with my pickles. Today is day 10, so I plan to taste!!!

Any ideas on the question above about the 'cloudy' thing in my pickles???????

Can't wait to get home from "work" so I can "play".

Pickle tasting.
Beans to can.
Toms and squash to pick.

My kind of playing!
Deanna

Deanna, I don't know why one recipe lists a much shorter fermentation time than the other. I assume it has to do with the ratio of salt but I'm too lazy to figure it out. I never pay attention to what a recipe says about fermentation time anyway since local conditions control that. When your pickles are done can be all over the map compared to what the recipe says.

The cloudy "mother" is scum. Do what you can to remove it but the brine will not be entirely clear. If it's mold you'll know it. It looks like mold and you know how mold looks.

Carol

It may also be a half sour fermented that is confusing as to a shorter time. Mine are only 3 days at room temps and then into the fridge.

Update!
The pickles are great! I dumped my container into a big colander and rinsed them (including the dill and garlic).
Then they went into the fridge in a 1:3 Vinegar/Water brine.
I like cold pickles, so I'm anxious to try them tonight.
I was putting them in the fridge at 9:30 last night while my 2nd load of beans were "under pressure".

So...........for future batches.....
How the heck are ya supposed to get the scum out when it's between the brine bag and the top pickles?? By the time I lifted out the bag, it was wanting to mix into the pickles/brine. Hence, the fastidious rinsing and new brine.

Deanna

I did another plate change and pickle test today, and we're all good!

Carol, the smaller of the cukes do "snap" when bent, taste very good, and are clearly "done". I had also put some cukes in there that were much larger in diameter, like the ones that you buy at Great America that are like $3 and sold on a stick. Those cukes are the ones that seemed excessively "soft", though not slimy. It seems to me that the seed section offers too little structural integrity, and those are now soft. The little ones are fine, and I would call this a success. Maybe I can cut the big ones into spears, or even just pitch them, but the taste and texture of the little ones will give me some bragging rights! They came out excellent.

Thank you, all, for all of your help throughout this. I was pretty nervous last week, and your help has been indispensable!

Now to can them....

My warm regards,

John Scott Smith

Try this cuke type. It will produce cukes without seeds, if its planted by itself with no other cukes nearby to pollinate it.

Great thread! I, too, am working on my first two batches of homemade pickles!

I must admit, it seems fairly magical to me that pickles result from this process - but I am super excited to hopefully have some good pickles soon.

I followed the recipe listed here: http://www.wildfermentation.com/resources.php?page=pickles
There is no use of vinegar at all. I've prepared two batches in 5L Harsch Gairtopf Fermenting Crock Pots.

My basement where I am storing the crocks is also around 73 degrees.

It's been 5 days and I see no scum at all. I see some bubbles and there is a faintly pleasant dill smell but no scum.

Has anyone else used a recipe without any vinegar? Wondering if the lack of scum is a bad sign...

Is the Harsch crock this one? http://www.canningpantry.com/harsch-fermenting-crocks.html

Their whole thing is that there will be very little, if any, scum.

My non-Harsch crock took three to four days before I saw any noticeable accumulation of scum.

John Scott Smith

Lack of scum is not a bad sign. Scum may take longer to appear or, depending upon conditions, may not appear or may appear in very small amounts.

Carol

Everyone, thank you so much for all of your help. I will definitely do this again, next harvest.

What I've learned: the cucumbers that I chose were too large. In my tastings, the smaller ones had far better texture. I will use a different variety for the "huge" dills that I love. (Thank you for the recommendation, ksrogers.)

They are not at all difficult to make. They do require a little bit of diligence, but even less diligence than "sea monkeys" do.

The taste of these is absolutely better than fresh pack pickles, though not as impressive as I expected. Next year, I will use MUCH more dill.

And, it is not necessary to buy that HUGE, beautiful crock that I was lusting after....I've got a very inexpensive aluminum stock pot that I lined with a food-grade plastic bag, and a little math tells me that I'm about $150 ahead...

Carol, Jim, and Ksrogers, thank you, again, for you patience and advice on this. I was more worried about them being "safe to eat" than I realized, and your comments were both helpful and reassuring!

Alright. My bread is in it's final rise, so I'm heading back to the kitchen!

Wishing you all a wonderful afternoon,

John Scott Smith