Too wet, no wonder you had problems. We don't bottom water or use heat, that's an up north thing, except you can bottom wick like Bamboo Rabbit does because that delivers just enough water without becoming problematic, but I just keep my 3oz Solo bathroom cups up on eggcrate light panels so the water can drain out and after the seedlings germinate I let them dry out between top waterings. I use peat pellets with no problem, but have moved more to coir pellets since they stay moist but not wet as long as peat does. I also use light right down on top of the seedlings until they are ready to go outside, at 3 weeks for tomatoes or 6 weeks for peppers....I'm sure Silvia will be along soon to discuss her methods since she doesn't use lights, and Bamboo will probably be along soon to discuss his methods since he's very successful with the way he does things.

Tom

Welcome to our gang of crazies. We all must be crazy for trying to get cool weather crops growing in this heat! Except for Lou that is, he's got the cool houses. Oh, and don't mind Moo, he's mostly harmless.

Regarding starting seeds under lights, you should search the forums for Tom's (tomncath) post about starting seeds under lights, and his light set up. He also explains 'wicking', which is where you run a piece of yarn through the bottom of your (raised) container into a water - so the soil/roots wick water as they need it.

I don't know what a water mat is, so can't help you there. I can tell you that I think the four cell you are reusing may be too small without wicking.

When it comes down to the specifics of starting seeds, there are probably as many different specific detailed steps as there are gardeners. I found that I just had to experiment until I found something that mostly worked for me.

For the most part, I start seed in the 18 cell tray packs. I use Fafard Seed Starter Mix. Sit the cell tray on top a fluorescent light eggcrate grill cut to fit inside a plant tray. I am not wicking as the plants are growing fast enough to be out of the cells in a short time, and I keep an eye on them during the day. I do wick when the temps drop.

I bottom water with rain water. I dump any excess remaining water ABOVE the eggcrate after about 20 minutes or so. If something needs a bit of extra water, I give it a squirt from a bottle with a bottle top waterer http://www.leevalley.com/US/garden/page.aspx?p=53711&cat=2,2280,54307&ap=2. I wish I could find a good seedling watering can for the seedlings I've got out on the front porch.

I've got some plants started under lights in the garage, and some started on my covered east facing front porch. The front porch plants grow faster, but are at more risk from the elements. The plants in the garage dry out faster, and have to be hardened off before they can go out. Actually, I hardened off the front porch grown also before they get thrown to the full brutal sun and monsoons.

Experiment and learn, and don't be afraid to buy starts when they hit the nurseries. Oh, and plant multiple rounds of seeds. Better chance of success.

~dianne

Ha! Tom beat me to the punchline - listen to him, and Sylvia, Bamboo and Lou. I'm just a noob myself!

Speaking of which - where are you getting coir pellets Tom?

~dianne

Speaking of which - where are you getting coir pellets Tom?

Hi Dianne,

I get them here.

Oh cool, a new place to visit! Anything else I should want from there?

Thanks Tom!

Dianne

Oh cool, a new place to visit! Anything else I should want from there?

Only you can answer that question, once you place an order with them you'll frequently be getting catalogs in the mail :-) :-(

Tom

Thank you so much for the replies. It's amazing what can be learned when typing in the right search terms. I started this morning with "tomncath seed" and I'm cross eyed but much more knowledgeable 8 hours later! I am ready to make some changes but still have a concern before I go on a shopping spree.

I had read that too much heat would encourage legginess in the seedlings. So I started the seeds in the house, but the room temps are still roughly 82 degrees. I went and stared hard at my garage today for awhile and I think I have some ideas on how to incorporate light fixtures and air movement into existing shelving, but my concern is temps. It is not climate controlled out there and easily sits in the 90s+ range. So, do ya'll think that will be a problem? I read in Diane's post that she starts in the garage and the zone indicated seems nearby, but no idea what the temps are or get up to. Input would be greatly appreciated before I run out to the hardware store.

Tom - First off, thank you so much for the input you have provided gardeners here. I can not tell you how much I appreciate the time and knowledge you have donated to these forums and I have learned a lot from you today.
Secondly, I am in my Senior year at FGCU studying to be a Florida/Caribbean Historian and I drool thinking of the history you have in your head passed down from all those generations here! I may beg you for an interview one day :)
And finally, I had a "duh" moment when I read your post here. I had some dumb luck starting seeds on my patio table last Spring and it hit me - I used coir and not peat. So I will give those a go again since I had some success there. Thank you for providing the link.

Diane - I think you are right about the trays being too small for them to go for too long. They do look to be about the size of the bath cups that Tom uses, so if I can get them stable and find the right situation for them, then I will pot them up to the larger drinking cups next. And thanks for the comment about my wild petunia - I'll be adding fungicide to my shopping list and I dragged it a ways away from the garden plot today and I have an umbrella I am going to try to provide for it - that's going to take some thought. We've had incredible amounts of rain here lately - 3.5" just yesterday alone!

ok Scrap the question about the garage. Found a place in the house and have a new setup.

Hi Chrissy,

I can't see the picture you posted now, I'm at work and Big Brother blocks PB.

...studying to be a Florida/Caribbean Historian....

Now that's cool! We bought a few lots in Eleuthera and hope to build a house there one day, but right now this economy has me running scared :-( I have several books on Bahamian history so sometime I'd like to pick your brain too ;-)

Keep reading everything you can...I know I'm still learning and modifying what I do, unfortunately sometimes from my mistakes. Example, when I pot up the tomato seedlings at three weeks I usually use the 5:1:1 Al's mix in the drinking cups. I've found that when it's time to put them in their final containers the 5:1:1 drains too fast and veggies actually do better for me in a 4:2:1 (additional peat). Problem, I potted up my three week old seedlings in a 4:2:1 mixture and then we had three days of rain, guess what's happened? So far I've lost four of my twenty plants to damping-off because the mix has stayed too wet...hope I don't lose too many more or I'll be headed to Willow Tree to buy some four-pack seedlings :-(

Tom

gardengimp & others, Where do you find that egg ceate grill material?? Checked internet and am going blind with results in the hundreds of dollars! Where can I purchase more reasonably?

The eggcrate is a flourescent ceiling light fixture grill. You buy it a Caso Depot or Lowes in the lighting department for about 10$ for a sheet. They cut really easy with wire snips. One piece will fill about 5 of the garden trays I use.

~dianne

...for about 10$ for a sheet

You sure Dianne? I just priced the sheets at my HD and they were almost $15 a sheet. I have to buy them in bulk to get the price down to just $11/sheet, and he's right, that cost about $140.

Tom

Thank you gardengimp. I appreciate the rapid response. Thanks again.

I couldn't find the grill last night at Home Depot either. The vent return seems to be working for two trays, but at $7.49 for 10x28" that's not nearly as cost effective or easily manipulated as the grill. Knew I needed something though, so I just wandered around the store until I found that and hope it works similarly.

Tom I'd love to trade info any time. I'm dead serious about that interview. Lots of Bohemians used to come up and work in the "muck" so I'm already wondering if you have a connection because of your family history :) I have a public history class coming up this semester (starts in 10 days) and I want to do something related to agriculture in this state. If my professor ok's my topic, I'll be hoping for a slice of your time! I'm sorry to hear about your problems. Afraid I did my rain dance a little too well this year.

I think I'm still having some damping off issues with one of my hot pepper mix seeds. It almost looks like the white fuzzy stuff is coming up out of the soil with this little guy's head! I have this tray quarantined under the original light setup, the fan on it and have not added any water to that cell. I'm thinking I should probably cut that tray out from the others. Any other suggestions on how I might be able to save this guy if it is the dreaded damping off... again??

and even closer up

Thanks again,

Chrissy

You sure Dianne?

Sadly, no. My memory these days is melting and tends to turn up what it wants to. I don't recall the white being more than $20 though. And I like to round down for hubs benefit :)

Here you go Chrissy, just track down your ever so helpful friendly Home Depot person and ask them to point you to the fluorescent ceiling light replacement diffusers - eggcrate louver style.

~dianne

Here is a link that might be useful: Eggcrate Diffuser

Well Chrissy, I'm home now and can see your vent picture, that's definitely creative! All HD's do carry the eggcrate panels though, go to the lighting section and ask where they are.

In that last post that's not damping off, this is. They wilt and die, a fungal problem usually from soil that is too wet too long :-(

Dianne, that's definitely cheaper than my HD, they are over $14 here, more like this price :-(

Tom

I am in Miami. I don't use lights at all. I start all seed outside in the sun/rain. If I get too much rain, I start over. The rain usually quits in October. The trick is to have some strong seedlings by then. Anything still alive is usually plenty strong. I put about a dozen seeds in a small pot and keep it damp. as soon as they sprout, I put them in larger pots. To have a sheltered area helps to protect the seedlings from hard rain or too much sun.

Thanks for sharing Garf. I think I may try an inside batch and an outside batch and see what happens. I'm determined to get this figured out.

I found the thread where Bamboo Rabbit explains how he wicks today and am also going to give that a shot. Thanks Tom and Dianne for pointing me in the right direction.

Tom - thank you for the pics. My condolences for your loss. I've learned from it though - need to start more plants in case I lose some.

I'm pretty sure that was some sort of fungus in the pics and have pricked the seed out and scraped the surface soil. There's another little guy just coming up in there so I'm keeping it quarantined and will see what happens.

Dianne - so sorry for spelling your name wrong! Thanks for the link. Now I know exactly what to ask for. I rolled into HD around 8:45 last night so the person helping was more interested in moving me along and not playing a weird game of charades combined with guess what I'm thinking of.

I had a thought today that maybe I can share and help. I have to take liquid meds each day to combat my food allergies and I use a syringe (no needle) to add the right dosage to juice... And I'm thinking that I may be able to very gently water the seedlings with one. You can definitely control the rate of fluids coming out by how hard or soft you press the plunger down. After I dislodged a seedling this morning I knew I needed something. I ordered a few in for pretty cheap and I'll post how it goes.

Yay! Chrissy

Oh and I meant Bahamians above - not bohemians. Big difference there lol. Quite a few miles between the Bahamas and the Czech Republic.

The egg-crate /lighting filters are located in the same isle as the screening material.

As far as high costs...if you look, there is usually a box with ones people (kids) have busted/broken due to them being pack so tightly, making it difficult to extract. In other words, you can often grab broken sheets for next to nothing...much like untreated pine in the "cul lumber bin"...a favorite place for me!"

...syringe (no needle) to add the right dosage to juice... And I'm thinking that I may be able to very gently water the seedlings with one.

Won't work, sooner or later calcium buildup from our hard water will cause the plunger to skip/stick to the barrel and you won't be able to regulate the pressure. Other than wicking, the best options for top watering are either to use a spray bottle or simply pour the water or diluted fertilizer from a 12-16oz drinking cup filled only half way, that way you can control how much fluid the seedlings are getting with little worry of harm. If you use spray you'll have to water more frequently but that way you can assure the won't be too wet on the surface, just watch closely thought or they'll dry out burn up under the lights.

Tom

Love the cul lumber bin! I'll keep an eye out for the bin with the grills next time I'm in.

Tom - even with the plastic syringes?

I've been using rain water lately since we've had so much of it. But if I don't have that I was using zephyrhills. We have a office type 5 gallon dispenser here at the house that is kept at room temperature. I was trying to use a cup, but I'm a moose apparently since I dislodged a little guy.

I do almost the same as garf: I start seeds inside, but as soon as they sprout, they go outside - either on a table under some shade, or in direct sun, depending on the weather. I often bring the very young seedlings inside my screened porch @ night to keep the bugs, slugs & snails from nibbling them.

Watering w/ seaweed extract & compost tea seems to help prevent most fungus & diseases. So does using Jiffy seed starting mix.

Carol and Garf - do they get leggy outside? Or are the leggy ones the ones that die off?

I'm using the jiffy starting mix on this latest batch and having much better luck. I've got some seaweed extract and will add that into my routine.

Thank you for the replies,
Chrissy

Mine only get leggy if they're not getting enough direct sunlight. But you can transplant tomatoes (& a number of other veggies as well) deeper & they'll root along the stems. Anyhow, it's considered good practice to always bury tomato seedlings deeper for more root formation.

IMPE, leggy seedlings are more susceptible to damping off & other fungal woes, that's 1 reason I don't care to bother w/indoor lighting set-ups (the other is lack of space).

This season is not good for me. My tomato seeds that I planted july 15th is a total loss.....
Fungus got them! Nothing I did after I saw fungus helped.

Chrissy,
Thanks for posting this. I'm just gearing up for my winter veggie gardening again and needed a primer from the masters here on gardenweb. And I have the same problem you do - not enough direct sunlight because my house was carefully built to limit that down here in 10b.
In the past, I've just up-potted my leggy tomato seedlings several times, as carolb suggests. However, I've never had any luck with broccoli seedlings. Anyone got advice there?
I can say that broccoli seeds will germinate if you just toss them on top of mulch, and I've eaten a lot of yummy broccoli that way. But if I could get them started earlier in the house, I'd have a longer harvest. No point in tossing seeds on mulch down here yet.
Susannah
PS. I'm a writer and working on a book about rural Dade County in 1938. I may have a fabulous source for you if you're interested in Florida agriculture, a true expert, retired now, who remembers when they used snow-shoe-like contraptions on the mules to keep them from sinking into the muck of the East Glades. Message me at writeme (at) susannahnesmith.com and I'll see if I can connect you.

Carol, I've never seen pictures of your seedlings or plants in growth, you know what they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.... Please show us what you are doing.

Tom

Sorry that I rarely take pix of my own stuff - nothing right now but vincas, some zinnias & a few peppers - tomatoes are on the list to be started ASAP - will post when they're ready for their photo-op = )

Thanks, when you take them outside where are they? Shade? Filtered sun? And, how do you acclimate yours?

Tom

Sorry to hear about your fungus Anna - hate the stuff! Hoping I can pull through with my second batch of seeds. If not, sounds like we'll both be off to the nursery for transplants. I'm not opposed to them, just wanted to grow my own. So amazing to watch and heartbreaking when they get sick.

Susannah, glad I could help. I sent a message over this morning. I'm honored to speak with you! I'm also very curious about your book. I immediately thought of Marjory Kinnan Rawlings and Zora Neale Hurston when I saw the year and subject of your upcoming book. Love literature about that period. I can enjoyably get lost for hours in the WPA FWP archives. Hoping we get some broccoli responses.. Love broccoli, but lots of spraying in the commercial fields. So growing here for the longest period possible is highly desirable in my home. My Mom talks to the brocolli seedlings everyday. Of course telling them how she's going to eat them all up may not be the words they wish to hear lol.

Thanks for posting Carolb. I look forward to pics and the answers to the questions Tom has asked. Knowing those answers will definitely help in a successful outdoor start.

Thank you so much everyone! I feel that I can honestly say I am not the only person you are helping with your knowledge and experiences. I lurked for months trying to learn before making the leap and starting to post.

Garf, I'd love to see pictures of what you're doing too, we all learn from each other but pictures help a lot.

Tom

I'm having really good luck with putting my seedlings out for a few hours of morning sun and then bringing them in on the patio. It's not totally enclosed, but does tend to be about 10 degrees cooler than in the sun. A neighbor told me it would be way too hot, but they have been doing just dandy.

I did start a bunch of different kinds of squash way too early. I know I can't put them out in the garden yet, because they wilt very fast if I don't bring them in by noon and perk right up after being brought back in. So, I'm going to have to move them into a third size pot. Kind of a bummer, but glad they are so healthy. I might start a few more just since all this is a big experiment for me and I would hate to lose it all and have no squash. I LOVE squash! :)

Becca

I have been setting my seedlings out in the sun and they just germinated. I keep them out until about 2pm and then bring them into the shade. They are doing fine so far, but they are only 2 days old.

I fertilized them, too.

yum,

In my experience, LOL just this season, 2pm is too late. I try to get mine out as soon as there is sun out on the uncovered patio, so they get several hours. But after noon, I bring them in the shade.

I don't put them out if it's raining, like this morning. And to be quiet honest, I don't know enough to know if mine are getting leggy. :)

FWIW, fertilizing is supposed to wait until the seedlings show their 1st true leaves.

(& my post from Sat, Aug 13, 11 at 10:50 answers most of Tom's questions.)

FLgardenmom,

I figured out what leggy seedlings are by typing that into a google images search and if I saw seedlings that looked like mine, I clicked on the pic, read what was said about the pic and evaluated the source it was coming from. I read somewhere where someone said "if you think your seedlings are leggy, they probably are, go with your instincts" and sure enough, they were right.

I've also witnessed a change in how quickly the seeds grow after germination between my two different lighting setups. The plants that are coming up now under the two lights set at a height much closer to them are a lot shorter and slower growing than the first batch I did just by a window and then under one light. Those guys looked like they were in a marathon and just seemed to be growing way too quick. The stems did not seem like they would support any sort of leave growth without toppling over.

I'm still gathering supplies together to start a new batch outdoors since I've exhausted my indoor space. I'm thinking I'll be trying to do something similar to what you are doing. The heat gets oppressive and the sun bakes me around 11:00 here so, I'm thinking it would be even worse on baby plants. I'll keep them out till then (wind and rain permitting) and bring them in the shade before I head to my classes each day.

To experimenting \_/ !
Chrissy

Thanks for referencing back Carolb. Since today was an overcast day I moved my watermelons and corn outside on a table in the pool cage and will be monitoring. They're outpacing all the small guys under lights so I am hoping for their success out there.

I had read the same thing multiple times about the seeds needing very little until germination and then starting a week fertilizer solution at the sign of true leaves.

Any ideas if fertilizing before that time would harm them or is it just more of a waste thing because they don't need it until then?

...I moved my watermelons and corn outside on a table....

I think you're too early for both of these in Zone 10, without a lot of spraying you'll have problems with worms in the corn if it does set in this heat, and fungal problems with the watermelons....

Tom

...too early...
Guess that's better than hearing I'm too late. I don't have any personal experience to go by so, have been following UF's guidelines. Would be nice if they had actual temperature listings added to those. Then I'd have a better idea when to start things.

... you'll have problems...

I don't have high hopes for the corn after all I read about potential issues. But I figured I'd try at least once. I'm planning on its final growing space located somewhere in the pool cage to hopefully cut back on worm issues as well as keep it segregated from my main area.

I started the melons because of the UF seed start guide and a fellow somewhat close to me has 10 melons growing on established plants. Not sure if/how much he's spraying though.