By the way, I'm looking to buy jars and lids from Fillmore Containers (see link below). Has anyone bought from them? Which items do you buy and have you had a good experience?

Thanks again!

Here is a link that might be useful: Fillmore Containers -- jars and lids

halfpintharvest,

Please do not invert unless you are going to store those items in the fridge! Please!! Inverting can cause problems with the safety of your canned items. Bacteria and/or Botulism may never show up but once - once is enough. Please do not do this.

DL

I just read the link that was provided for Fillmore Containers.

I've been interested in finding ways to preserve my fruit juices in glass bottles. According to their web site, they do have a bottle - a 12 oz. type, that would be fine for my use. The number is A12-04w.

But when it comes to finding the appropriate cap, that is where my curiosity/questions begin.

So - If I were to hot water bath my juices - (acidic only), would it be necessary to bring the juice to a boil as for a hot pack method? Would this compromize the flavor?

Also - the lids recommended - one recommendation #A16-10c -is this a cap that would be safe for BWB?

The web site also listes another cap - I believe a G-70 that from my understanding is recommended for BWB - but not for "hot packing" - would that mean pressure canning? They list another cap for that (forgot number).

I would like to can in glass bottles, many of the fresh fruit juices that I can grow from my citrus trees - and berries, but am not sure if there is any real safe way to do it. I could freeze, but that entails defrosting, etc., and using up precious freezer space.

What are your thoughts? Did I misinterpret the FAQs on their website?

Bejay

One piece are either lug type or threaded type. Lug means they have very small/short tab like protrusions on the underside of the openings of the lids. Lug types only fit jars that have the proper thread design, and they are not interchangable with regular threaded lids of jars. Lug type might be ok, if you have the ability to get a machine of some kind to tighten each lid with the same force consistently. Threaded ones are snugged down by hand, and are much more 'user friendly' when it comes to tighening. If your canning juices, they must be pasturized. Usually, once a citrus or berry juice is canned, its flavor changes after having heat applied. Hot packing is usually what most people do when they are BWB the jars. This means, filling jars with the boiling liquids (tomato, jelly, etc.) and capping, then a process in boiling water. There is a 'cold pack' method, pickles and relishes, but they usually need longer processing times to reach the high temps needed.

Dancinglemons,

Don't panic. Botulism is not a risk for fruit jams and jellies, which are very high in acid and sugar. Inversion is the standard, approved method of canning these in Britain. While it's not recommended in North America any more, there's no evidence that it's dangerous. The worst that seems to happen is perhaps an increased risk of jars not sealing and/or mould (which is clearly visible when you open the jar, and not fatal to ingest anyway).

I don't actually know if there is in fact evidence that these problems happen more often with inversion; we've had members of this forum in England who said they've never experienced either. But they may be the reason the recommendation was changed here. Or it may be the idea of not wanting to confuse people into thinking it's a safe method of canning other foods. The USDA recommendations have LOTS of extra safety margin built in, on the assumption that people don't know anything about food safety....

Please understand I'm not advocating abandoning safety recommendations. But I like to be sure we are talking about the real risks. Botulism IS a risk (a very low one, but, since it can be fatal, not one I want to take at all) with tomatoes an higher-acid foods.

Zabby

There have been a few studies (even Cooks Illustrated did one, I believe) demonstrating the failure rate for inverted jars is higher.

It doesn't happen often with home preserves but as the number of jars inverted increases, so does the likelihood.

Since you're marketing these products, I would not invert the jars. BWB processed products will have a stronger vacuum than inverted jars and thus a longer shelf life. It may save time, but it takes only one customer with a moldy or unsealed jar (concerns about contaminants introduced into the preserve) to ruin your business. Word-of-mouth is the best - and worst - in terms of sales.

Juices must be heated (pasteurized); as with blanching vegetables for the freezer, heating kills enzymes which cause deterioration. Also, I speculate without heating there would be a risk of fermentation under pressure. Do that and instead of juice you could be selling a bomb, LOL.

Carol

BTW, I BWB my jams and jellies, I would not invert products for sale, and I would hesitate to use lug caps because I am not sure how to check the seal (though I have used one-piece threaded lids from kitchenkrafts).

I just wanted to clarify that botulism isn't an issue if we're talking jams. It's a VERY different thing to talk about increased risk of seal failure or mould than to talk about a possibly fatal toxin.

halfpint, you may also want to check the regulations in your jurisdiction. It may not be legal to sell home-canned goods unless they have been processed according to USDA recommendations, which specify BWB (not inversion); it may even mean you would have to use two-piece lids?

Good luck in your business! Spread the good news about the wonderfulness of home-canned goods!

Zabby

Thanks, everyone. Assuming I do use the water-bath method with the one-piece lids, can anyone answer my original questions about the process?

Can you water-bath lug-type lids? How tight do you twist on the lids, and does any air escape or is the water bath only used for heating to ensure a good seal?

I love this GW site for this reason. When you are wrong or misunderstood someone with more knowledge comes along and gives constructive criticism. I love it!! Perhaps should not have thrown botulism in the mix but wanted to make a point about safety. Now to the subject at hand. I found this on the web.

http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/!ut/p/_s.7_0_A/7_0_1OB?navtype=MA&navid=CONTACT_US

It is the contact us page for the USDA. Also contact your state department of agriculture and find out what the rules are for your state re: preparing food products for sale. Here in my neck of the woods we have a commercial cannery that is part of the extension agency (Hanover, Virginia) so we can pack our things in a commercial plant. Items canned there are not certified for sale but the plant operates the canners with all of the state mandated pressures and times and stuff (technical canning word there).

Good luck with your endeavor. That is how many of the now "it" juice and beverage companies got started. Most of the 'fresh' juices sold in stores are really pasteurized in a process that saves most of the flavor. If you drink Tropicana fresh squeezed OJ from the carton and then drink a glass of OJ that you just squeezed yourself you will taste a difference. You can not protect the entire flavor but you can offer the best product available at the time.

DL

I use the Lug type lids all the time.

Yes you can waterbath just as you do with the 2 piece lid.

Screw the lid on just beyond finger tight, the air will vent when the jar is waterbathed.

Do not invert the jars.

The company I bur jars from has special jars in that there is a stop that prevents over tignting the lids. (Richards Packaging)

1) Can you water-bath the "lug" type lids -- or only the twist-on one-piece lids?
2) When you do water bath a one-piece lid, how tight do you twist the lid?
3) Does the air "vent" out of the jar when you use a one-piece lid? If so, how?

1) Yes, but their use is not recommended by the recognized authorities on safe home canning. As others have said, you must check your local rules and regs to see if their use is allowed.

2) Tighten it the same as you would a two piece lid - hand tight.

3) Yes, just as it does with a two piece lid. When you remove the jars from the BWB you will note the lids are a bit loose. Hand tighten them again and wait for the "ping" of the sealing.

is the water bath only used for heating to ensure a good seal? No, the purpose of the BWB is to heat the jar contents to the required temperature to kill any possible contaminants. The fact that it also produces a vacuum seal is secondary.

When dealing with food sales to the public the rules you must abide by are extensive - some locals even require annual kitchen inspections and certified instruction classes. Your local county extension can best advise you on the processes and the containers you can use and can explain how to avoid the potential liability issues involved.

Good luck.

Dave

PS: You might also want to check out the Market Garden forum as we often have discussions over there on the rules and regs problems.

Many of the lug type lids also have the dimple in the middle to determine if there is a vacuum inside. This is also true with some commercial products that use a lug type lid.

Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate your advice. By the way, I have already contracted for a few hours a week this spring and summer with a commercial (certified) kitchen in my area that works with food entrepreneurs. I'll be testing processes in my home until then.