Sherry, I've got one that is absolutely doing what you described the Type 2 as doing! Mlle. Jeanne Phillipe is only about a foot tall, but is growing outwards, about 2 - 2 1/2 feet in all directions. NOT what I had envisioned for a balcony rose, but it is so beautiful that I don't care. It's exquisitely graceful-looking. It is, of course, in a pot - so the soil is just good potting soil, plus occasional MaxSea and more occasionally alfalfa meal. Because of the pot, I don't know whether the root system would reflect the upper growth or not, if it were ground-grown.
This is my only Tea, so I have no experience of the other two styles, except to say that to my still-unknowledgeable eyes, many of the big Teas in the Sac Cemetery Garden are big and rounded.

Laura

My tea roses often start off looking short and wide. But after one or two years almost all of them throw a huge cane. That huge cane is very exciting because it's the beginning of the awkward teenage growth of the tea and a big huge glorious tea is just a year or two away.

Oh, Laura, I knew I wanted that rose!! That's good to remember. How old is Mlle Phillipe?

Cweathersby, the thing with my Type-2's is that they never do throw that big cane. They just gradually inch upwards. Now Gen Gallieni stayed short and flat (doing nothing) for 2 years. Then this year sent up a cane or two. I moved him the other day, and when I walked by yesterday, I would have sworn it wasn't the rose that had been growing in the other spot. It was tall (well, about 3') and no longer flat to the ground. I hadn't noticed the shape the day I was digging it up. But I no longer share your excitement about seeing signs of bigness - glorious or otherwise. Just don't have any room. :))

Sherry

My Rosette Delizy is an example of the V shape you describe, Sherry, and it almost seems that's its beginning to go into the next change where the V starts to disappear.

I have Enchantress, a very slow grower for me, and it's so far definitely a ground hugger. It looks as though it will never throw up any long canes, which is something that three of my Le Vesuve roses are beginning to do.

"Gangly, open and all angles" would be one of my Mrs. Dudley Cross roses, but that may just be because its location is a bit too shady. I'll watch my newer second bush which is in full sun and see what it does.

Duchesse de Brabant, Mme. Joseph Schwartz and Miss Atwood have been more rounded and shapely growers, as has Souvenir d'un Ami.

Ingrid

Sherry, it's 2 years old now. I think I got it in the late summer sale in 2008 - it was the "Unloved Roses" sale, but I DO love it! But I seem to remember that you bought it at the same time and had bad luck with it. Plus, you were concerned about yellow roses in general, in regard to blackspot - so it was probably for the best. Anyway, you've got a lot of wonderful roses now! I'll keep you posted in regard to MJP's growth, I mean if it starts to go up, rather than out. But, like you, I checked back to the Vintage drawings, and it seems that this is the way it's supposed to be (although bushier and a bit taller eventually).

Laura

Ingrid, now that I think about it my Enchantress did shoot up a 3' tall cane in the spring with a huge candelabra on it, but then it flopped over, making the bush become oblong in shape. You'd never know it's current shape isn't original. The flopped over cane just put out side shoots, I guess. It's the most amazing rose bush. I was just thinking today, Am I weird to love a rose that balls consistently? It's just the nicest evergreen plant, and it's exciting to see if the flowers are going to open this time. :)) Here it is in September. The fence is 3' tall. It's a year and a half old.

{{gwi:308525}}

Here's Souv de Francois Gaulain, same age, same habits.

{{gwi:308526}}

Sherry

I certainly notice the roses of low spreading habit, though I wonder if it may be related to the exposed are in which my roses grow: none of my shrubs are in a hurry to put on height. Definite spreaders include 'Papa Gontier', 'Mme. Berkeley', and 'Isabella Sprunt', which differs in this from its sport parent 'Safrano', a reasonably upright shrub. All these varieties have been in my garden for several years. 'Mme. Antoine Mari' is also wider than high, although when she has the protection of a wall she's no longer prostrate. My Teas get squashed by snow every winter, and this may discourage their gaining height: I notice this in 'Mme. Antoine Mari'. But 'Archduke Joseph' (the U.S.'s 'Monsieur Tillier'?) is always taller than wide, and 'General Schablikine' is fairly upright. 'Sanguinea' makes a beautiful rounded shrub.
Melissa

Obviously, I know nowt about teas but I am admiring this wonderfully clear piece of observation work Sherry - such a sign of a GREAT gardener....and sadly, not really applicable to me. Lost count of how many times I have exhorted my offspring that the best tools for a job always start with clarity of vision.

>To a lesser/slower degree Mlle Franziska Kruger, General Schablikine, Arcadia Louisiana Tea and General Gallieni seem to be growing upright

Hi Sherry,

"How could this be???" was my first thought regarding your General Gallieni comment. I'd seen a photo of one that extended maybe 5-6 feet wide and probably no more than 16 inches in height! It just happened to be a one-year-old plant, but I was figuring that it would progress *slowly* upward into what couldn't end up overall as an upright plant. Could it? ... Oh, dear!

Now, thanks to your post, I've rechecked the Vintage sketches and... know that my plans for our General Gallieni's placement need to be changed. (That's assuming it survives into the spring flush without showing any more RRD symptoms--I've cut one cane out and assume it's cured, but I'm not sure about that yet.) I don't know how, with all the rose research I was doing, that I failed to know General Gallieni's overall shape when ordering it last spring, but that was the situation I'd still be in if not for your post!

Well, there is another spot where General Gallieni would fit well. Meanwhile, I think General Schablikine (the one we don't yet have) will work nicely next to Ducher without overwhelming it.

Sherry, thank you so much for your detailed observations and writing!

Best wishes,
Mary

Melissa, you have so many environmental forces (wind, snow, clay) that I don't have, and many of your roses are much older than mine so I'm not surprised about the variations. I am a little surprised that wind would make a rose bush short and wide. Perhaps your shortage of warm weather rain slows their growth so much that they persist in that low/wide state longer than mine would. It will be interesting to see what shape these low and wide ones eventually take.

Your thoughtful comment is very kind, Suzy, but this "wonderfully clear piece of observation work" may be a little slow in coming since I've been "observing" them at close quarters for a good long time. It took digging a few up to get my conclusions formed, just to find that they merely confirm Vintage's descriptions. However, I might add that even though those descriptions are better than nothing, they were always maddeningly vague to ignorant me and left much unsaid. It has taken 3 years of firsthand growing to consolidate my thoughts into words that don't embarrass me, and even at that it is yet to be seen what 3 more years of observation will do to my current conclusions. I always TRY to be clear. Alas, DH rarely agrees. He is a man of few words with little patience for females of many words. You see the problem, right?

Mary, your 1-yr old Gen Gallieni that is 5'-6' wide and 16" tall is exactly why I thought mine was a dud. At that age mine was maybe 2-1/2' wide and 10" tall. It took it's sweet time to finally throw that tall cane. Interestingly, I just looked at the tea shapes on Vintage's site. They make more sense now. I can see how my Type-1 and type-4 would be Vintage's growth habit #3. I just didn't know that the narrower V of year-2 would widen out to year-3, becoming Vintage's #3. Also, Vintage says both La Sylphide and Enchantress are GH#1, but in my garden they grow very differently. LS is a much more open bush and a little taller than E even though it's younger.

I saw a Rosette Delizy growing in clay that was a very tall and very narrow V (probably 5 or 6 years old). Mine wanted to be very wide, laying out her side canes at a 45 degree angle. I don't know if soil was the only difference, but the bushes looked nothing alike.

Sherry

Sherry,

I have a few teas and they are mostly of the spread first kind of habit. In my garden, these would include: Souv. de Francois Gaulain, General Gallieni, Westside Road Cream, Mrs. B.R. Cant, Devoneisis (bush)--just put up one tall cane this fall--very exciting, Clementina Carbonari and Souv. de Pierre Notting. Several of these seem right now to be more "ground cover" roses.

The only other type I've noticed have gone straight up--I've never seen the "classic V shape" on any of them (at least yet). This type would include: Duchesse de Brabant--very upright for me and the oldest Tea I own--probably 7 years), Madame Antoine Mari, and Duquesa--looks like it will take the same form as DdB. Angel's Camp Tea looks like it will grow more up than out at first and I'm hoping that M. Joseph Swartz will take after his mom and grow upright because he'll need to be to live comfortably in the space he's planted.

Others I have are too young to judge.

Interesting thread--I'm glad to know that the "lay on the ground types" aren't just me.

It's interesting that Duchesse de Brabant was the "straight up" type for gardennatlanta - I don't grow it myself, but I've noticed that it has a very strong (to me) fragrance, but not what I think of as a Tea fragrance at all. Could it be that there is something non-Tea in her lineage that is dominant? I'm not at all knowledgeable about things like that, but it makes me wonder, especially since I just checked HMF, and it said "unknown" under lineage.

Laura

Jeff, my Mrs BR Cant grew very short and flat for a couple of years also and then started throwing those tall canes. I thought she'd never start growing. Surprising that your DdB isn't rounder. Mine was very odd looking for a couple years because her original canes grew at a 45 degree angle in one direction. She looked like some sort of odd sculpture. Then in the 3rd year around July she was all filled out with canes going in all directions - round and 5x5. I had a hard time figuring out how I missed the transformation. It happened so quick.

Laura, DdB to me definitely gives off the smell of sweet tea leaves, pretty powerfully, too. One odd thing though was that the second whiff was always hard to detect. Very frustrating since it's a delectable fragrance.

Sherry

Fragrance is a funny thing. I'd say DdB smells like raspberries with a underlying Tea fragrance.

Devoneisis doesn't smell "tea-like" at all to me--it's an incredible fragrance and it's one of my favorites. I can hardly wait for some more growth.

Sherry, I don't think it's weird that you love Enchantress, even if it balls regularly. The bush for me is beautiful too and the blooms that do open are so worth tolerating the others that don't open well.

You know that my tea types are both slowly tall and wide here.

G. Nabonnand is of the rounded bush type though, as was Marie Van Houtte for me in the south.

Isabella Sprunt was upright for me, though, Melissa, so different from yours. Mons Tillier definitely upright and tall. Mrs. BR Cant grew at odd angles too, a little like the Cochets. For those blooms on MBRC, who cares how they grow??

Very enjoyable thread, Sherry.

Hey, Gean, I kinda figured you'd understand my affection for Enchantress. It really is a beautiful bush. I love the zillions blue-green leaves. When the flowers open, they're a little raggedy as if the edges of the outer petals are crisped a little - like a second-hand rose. I haven't even checked to see if she has fragrance.

Sherry

Sherry, Pat at RU said she's fragrant. I was seriously considering Enchantress but I went with Souv. de Francois Gaulain (they look a lot alike to me). I had heard about Enchantress balling and SdFG was said to bloom better. SdFG doesn't have much fragrance which is usually really important to me--but I guess not as important as not balling.

It's really interesting that you really like her.

My RdL is the V shape and it's been that way for 5 years now. When is it going to get a bit rounder?

Enchantress has never balled for me but then she hasn't bloomed much either. All the same, I'm not giving up on her, and I have fond hopes for next spring. My Mrs. B.R. Cant doesn't have those odd angles (yet). It's been very short but now is putting out longer growth, but in a very regular and pleasing way, and even now is blooming and putting out buds. It's a very exciting rose for me.

Ingrid

>Sherry: Laura, DdB to me definitely gives off the smell of sweet tea leaves, pretty powerfully, too. One odd thing though was that the second whiff was always hard to detect. Very frustrating since it's a delectable fragrance.

Sherry, try moving your nose a little farther away from the rose between sniffs than what you are used to doing. The receptors for smell that we all have are quick to adapt and tune out, extremely quick.

Best wishes,
Mary

Jeff, I haven't smelled SdFG either. They've been very low to the ground until recently.

Buford, by RdL do you mean Rosette Delizy. She was 3 years old and still v-shaped but wide.

Ingrid, you have Enchantress, too? Cool! You'll have to post pics of her not balling. :)) My MRBC is blooming now, too.

Gean, oooh, glad to hear she's fragrant. Yours is so pretty.

Mary, I knew there must be a trick to it. I'll give your method a try.

Sherry

Sherry, I read your original post but not a lot of what comes after because I'm in a rush. You seem to have nailed it according to what I have here on the other side of the country. Rosette Delizy is vase shaped (great rose btw), the Cochets are open and angular (But...I must say that Maman is the most lanky for me, White Maman and Niles are much more bushy, especially Niles - which I got from Ashdown). Mme. Berkeley is fat and wide! So is Clementina Carbonieri. That's all for now.

Jerome, I'm glad to hear you say White Maman and Niles are bushier (rounder?), but maybe that doesn't mean smaller. I think that's what I was thinking that you meant which made me glad. But bushy is good. :))

Sherry

Yes, Sherry, for me more branches, fuller and covered to the ground;not smaller - on the contrary...heh heh heh.