Diane -- Unless something new has come along, the rose in commerce as 'La Biche' is actually the original Tea Rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'

I grew it for a while, but lost it -- it wan't in a great location -- but it WAS exquisite.

For me, it grew as a bush-form Tea Rose.

Last I heard, the true 'La Biche' was thought to be lost.

Hi Jeri, yes I knew about that. My rose doesn't look like the Mlle. de Sombreuil photo in the PDF. I'll need to take a photo. Got it from Rosemary's Roses and I assumed she would have known the difference but who knows.

Diane

Here is a link that might be useful: Sombreuil and Mlle. de Sombreuil

How interesting!

I think the next time I visit Rosemary, I am bringing the truck, and then hopefully she has one left La Biche left

This is really new news.

Rosemary is a really nice person, and I would not hesitate to ask her for updated info.

Do you have her email address? Could you send it to me?

And, can you get a photo?

I used the link on her website to contact her.

I am very curious, but either way I think this rose is on my want list.

Hi Diane, for info on the noisette La Biche you might want to contact John Hook (owner of the nursery La Roseraie du désert in France) thru HMF as he is a member. He is familiar with the true La Biche which he obtained from one of the great French rose gardens L'Hay. La Biche is alive and well there.

The situation with the tea rose Mlle de Sombreuil in the US is more of a muddle today than it has ever been. Because now we have a found tea rose without provenance, and with a very weak identification, being sold in the US as the famous tea rose Mlle de Sombreuil. It would have been better if the unknown tea in commerce in the US was sold as what it is, a found rose, than attaching it to the name of a famous rose before more thorough research was done. Such as was done with the found rose Maggie where DNA examination was performed and her real identity confirmed via this route.

This id of the found white tea rose was done by Phillip Robinson (of Vintage Gardens)--he sent his found rose to the Huntington for id, and they thought it was the noisette La Biche (and it started being sold in the US under that name). He also went to France and looked at the rose Mlle de Sombreuil growing at L'Hay and thought it looked like his found white tea rose, so therefore it was that rose. Unfortunately that was a premature and superficial identification.

John Hook has clones of Mlle de Sombreuil from L'Hay, Tete d'or, and Sangerhausen, as well as the found white tea rose from the US (aka Huntington La Biche, aka Vintage Mlle de Sombreuil) plus the climber Colonial White (called and sold as Sombreuil in the US) and the noisette La Biche from L'Hay. He has been able to grow and compare them. From this longer, more detailed, and close-up comparison, he says that the tea Mlle de Sombreuil from L'Hay is NOT the same rose as the tea Vintage is selling as Mlle de Sombreuil (aka Huntington La Biche). Whereas he says of the noisette La Biche, the true one, from L'Hay is a "typical noisette with medium size double flowers our plant matches the Jamain, Hippolyte litho on HelpMeFind".

In France, La Roseraie du désert sells the US found white tea rose (that Vintage and some other nurseries in the US sell as Mlle de Sombreuil) as Huntington La Biche and not as Mlle de Sombreuil.

The American Rose Society really needs to re-examine its position on Huntington La Biche aka Vintage Mlle de Sombreuil.

Melissa

Jeri, will message you shortly.

Melissa, my head is spinning from this rose puzzle.

I phoned Rosemary this morning and asked her about her La Biche. She said she obtained it from Sequoia Nursery when it was in business and that she was not aware of the controversy surrounding this rose.

The more I look at my plant, the more it looks like a Tea rose.

Photos soon as I can.

Diane

Noisettes began with a China/Musk cross, then were bred with Teas of the day. In one of the old references describing 'La Biche' it was compared to 'Lamarque', both being two great white-flowered Noisettes for pillars. Note that today we separate out Lamarque and others like it into the Tea-Noisettes but that wasn't always done in the past. Even 'Marechal Niel' was often called a Noisette rather than a Tea in the old references. So even if what you have really IS the real 'La Biche' it's no wonder that it reminds you of a Tea.

In reality, Teas are more than just hybrids between Rosa chinensis and Rosa gigantea. From the beginning, they were bred with Bourbons and Noisettes, and this changed them from the original, smaller, twiggy plants like "Bermuda Spice" -- which today we'd call Tea-like Chinas -- into the larger climbers and shrubs that were introduced later.

The lines between Noisettes, Bourbons, Teas and Chinas have fuzzy, overlapping edges. One of the most popular Bourbons is 'Souvenir de la Malmaison', whose Tea parent shows through. 'Mme Dore' is another Bourbon which was probably bred from a Tea ancestor, based on observing my own plant. Then I look at 'Reine Victoria' and its sport 'Mme Pierre Oger' and see how China- or Tea-leaning they are. In fact, they remind me somewhat of a popular big Tea -- 'Duchesse de Brabant'. Or what about the found rose called "Sophie's Perpetual" which is usually classed as a China based on growth, but has the Damask scent? It must have heavy China influence but somehow retained the Bourbon fragrance. When classes are based on combining two other classes, it's possible when they breed amongst themselves for offspring to lean one way or the other -- especially if back-crossed to either parent class.

I think that back in the days when many roses were raised from OP hips collected in gardens containing an array of roses from different classes, anything introduced was assigned its class based on that of its seed-parent (if known), or whatever class it most resembled if neither parent was known. Look at how many roses (including Teas) have no parentage recorded. I wonder how many were grown from "mystery hips" and a watchful gardener said "hmm...looks Tea-like to me."

:-)

~Christopher

This post was edited by AquaEyes on Thu, Jun 26, 14 at 23:51

Diane -- I would, then, feel safe in assuming that the rose Rosemary has is the same rose offered by the Antique Rose Emporium -- and which was obtained by them from the Huntington Botanical Gardens.

The Huntington had in turn obtained it from Phillip Robinson, who found it in Northern California. (NoCal has been a rich source of Old and Forgotten roses.)

What that Tea rose was originally called, I have no clue. I have grown it, and it was very much a Tea in my garden. It's real, ORIGINAL history remains un-known, and if it is NOT 'La Biche,' and NOT 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' it really needs a Study Name of its own.
===========

The Climbing rose, heavily Wichurana in Character, sometimes called "Sombreuil," and sometimes called "Colonial White," is not a Tea and was never a Tea.
============

Christopher, as early as Modern Roses 3 (the earliest I own) and as late as Modern Roses 12, 'Marechal Niel' was still classed as a Noisette. It was called by some a "Tea-Noisette" -- but that was unofficial.

I LIKE the classification "Tea-Noisette," but I have not heard that ARS has adopted it. Has something happened recently to change that?

Jeri -- by "we" I meant gardeners who grow antique roses and follow groupings based on a combination of ancestry and "how they work in the garden." I'm not familiar with the specifics of the ARS. Personally, I find logic with how Vintage Gardens grouped its collection, and I tend to follow that.

Along those lines, what I'd call Damask Perpetuals are roses that basically grow like Gallicas but get their rebloom and fragrance from Damasks -- and exclude the shorter Hybrid Perpetuals like 'Comte de Chambord' because they appear and "behave" somewhat different(ly). In my garden, I think of 'Souvenir de la Malmaison' and 'Mme Dore' as "Bourbon-Teas", and 'Mlle Blanche Lafitte' as a "Bourbon-Noisette" because that's how they appear and "behave", and it reminds me that they aren't to be treated the same as 'Souvenir de Victor Landeau' and 'Mme Sevigne' which I consider more "typical" long-caned Bourbons.

:-)

~Christopher

Sure, Christopher, but you don't want to confuse folks. You can make those divisions, but folks need to know what class most nurseries, for instance, will place them in.

Here are some photos I took late last summer at the Noisette Project rose bed at Edisto Gardens in Orangeburg, SC. I'd be VERY interested to know where they got their plant... perhaps from John Hook? I did just post these same photos at HMF, btw.

These photos were taken mid-day when the temps were in the 100F range. I don't know if the flowers are blushed pink in cooler weather- maybe another visit to Orangeburg is called for?

Virginia

FWIW, here (photographed in the Sacramento City Cemetery)

Your 'Mlle de Sombreuil' is a lovely sight to behold. How wonderful to constantly be adding roses to my wish list!

I don't think this 'La Biche' rose in the Noisette Project bed is the same rose as your 'MdS', do you? I'm just trying to tease out what's left of the name 'La Biche' once we subtract 'MdS' (and 'Lamarque') from the equation. Is it the Aussie Noisette? I dunno.

It's still lovely, regardless of the name, but I like the history of roses and their names also. Even though I'm in love with my white no-name rose, I'd still like to know her name (if she has one), and her story. I don't want much, do I?

Virginia

Not at all -- but then, sometimes we can just never know.

I've wondered, a time or two, if "Manchester Guardian Angel" might not have been 'La Biche.'

It must have been SOMETHING -- because it has been found in at least three widely-separated areas. But no one's ever been able to match it.

I bought it from one vendor as "Manchester Guardian Angel" which was its FIRST Study Name. Then, I bought it again from another vendor as "Georgetown Lemon-White Tea". And from another discovery, it was SN "Legacy of Joseph Marcilino." It's also been called "Half-Moon Bay Yellow."

An early description of 'La Biche' from 1832 (via HMF, of course): "Rose noisette Labiche. Stem crimson-purple, foliage dense, very vigorous; leaves alternate on petiole, usually formed of seven leaflets of a light green, toothed, mid-rib on the reverse furnished with prickles. Rather numerous large and pointed prickles. Flowers well formed, full, of a flesh-colored white, scented with the characteristic odor of tea, with a beautiful shape; supported by a moderately long peduncle, furnished with one crimson-purple bract. This beautiful rose, very remontant, flowers from the end of May to the strong frosts. It has been obtained by M. Toullier, retired lieutenant-colonel, owner in Rueil. It is not very delicate and works in all terrains and exposures. It is ideal for decorating arbors and boughs because of its fast growth, which produces branches from six to seven feet, and especially because of the persistence of its foliage, which it retains for a long time. Filliette."

There aren't very many "MGA" photos at HMF for comparison, but it does seem to have the fairly long peduncle. I can't tell how thorny it is, but the Orangeburg 'La Biche' photos don't seem to show too many thorns either. Could just be the photographer's mistake, though... The Orangeburg 'La Biche' does have light green leaves with 7 leaflets, but the photographer neglected to check for the prickles on the underside. "MGA" photos seem to show medium-to-dark green leaves, but that could be down to climate, yes? I also really couldn't tell you at this point 6 months later if the general shape could be mistaken for a pillar. "MGA" definitely looks pillar-like to me.

I know that you're not very good at detecting Tea fragrance, and neither am I, but this early description doesn't make a big deal of the fragrance, while the Aussie 'La Biche' is described as exceptionally fragrant. Which seems to match up with Mrs Keay's description of 'La Biche', although her description is not referenced at HMF, just referred to, so I may very well be misinterpreting what is there.

My visit to Orangeburg was actually a halfway meeting place for us to pick up our dog, so the roses didn't get enough time and attention. It also took me a while to find the Noisette bed since it was hidden away. Even in mid-day triple-degree heat, 'Celine Forestier' and 'Multiflore de Vaumarcus' smelled exceptionally wonderful. Others were also fragragrant, but I don't recall if 'La Biche' was or wasn't.

It's starting to feel like spring here, and I'm thinking ahead to roses...

Virginia

Here are links to roserai du desert's photos, I've added their description:

Sombreuil - medium size, very double , flat bloom, creamy white tinted pink at centre.

La Biche (Huntingdon -their spelling not mine) - Large, full , double, flesh white with pale rose centre. Very fragrant.

Virginia yours, looks like the Huntington La Biche.

It seems they don't sell the one from L'Hay, which Tessies mentioned.

So -- Those two are "Colonial White" (Cl. Somb.) and the rose now called 'Mlle. de Sombreuil," which was collected in ?Santa Rosa? by Phillip Robinson, and grown at the Huntington. (See considerably above, my photograph from the Sacramento City Cemetery.)

Virginia -- The rose in commerce as "Manchester Guardian Angel,"/"Georgetown Lemon-White Tea"/"Legacy of Joseph Marcilino" is INCREDIBLY prickly. The new prickles are red, hooked, vicious, and somewhat translucent, so that the sunlight shines through them. They remind me of a "miniature" version of the thorns of the "Wingthorn Rose."

I'm not real serious about that identity meshing with 'La Biche' -- but it is in the back of my mind. :-)

Hey Bob-

According to HMF, "Huntington La Biche" is synonymous with 'Mlle Sombreuil'. Interesting.

That one photo they have at Roseraie du Desert of "Huntington La Biche" does look much more like the Orangeburg 'La Biche' than the photos of 'Mlle Sombreuil' I've seen. One photo doesn't clinch an ID, though, so I'd like to see a few more of "HLB".

I tried to find an online photo taken at the Huntington of the rose they thought/think is 'La Biche', but have had no success thus far. If there IS a difference between "HLB" and the various European clones of 'Mlle Sombreuil', it would be nice to have photos of the original rose from Huntington for comparison.

I will mention that I took the photos of the Orangeburg roses in very hot weather (about 100F that day), so I'm not prepared to swear that if I go back to Orangeburg next month, that the same plant won't look more like 'Mlle S' in more temperate weather.

So sorry to unintentionally open an old can of worms,

Virginia

Sequoia's La Biche was the Huntington rose. Kim

Wading into this, I will explain our take on this. The US are equating Mlle de S. with "Huntington La biche". This isn't a problem there, but in Europe we have dilemmas over this. We have Mlle de S from L'hay and from Tete D'Or (Lyon) which are probably the same + one from Sangerhausan which is noticeably different + "Merete Stenbock" found by Branchi. The Huntington is different from these. We have to classify these differently and when I get something from L'Hay I treat this as the correct naming unless obviously false. (Of course, it also could be wrongly named). This is why I have reverted to the study name. It is possible that over a period of more than a century that the cloning under different environments would make these roses appear different but that's another subject, The main thing is for someone to know what plant they are getting. All of this naming is fun but is subjective. When it comes down to it we can't be totally sure that any rose of such an age can be correctly named.

Thank you, John.

Yes. I agree that at this great remove from the time the roses were introduced and named, we can't be absolutely sure that a newly-found rose is a match for a "lost" old one. And as I said above, I personally don't much care, as long as we all know which rose we're referring to.

That's why I really, really want to keep an original study name attached to the rose.

I'm also interested in your mention of "Marete Stenbock."

The one photo I've seen of that rose reminded me strongly of "George Washington Richardson"/"Legacy of The Richardson Family" -- another Found Rose from Northern California. See:
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.65277

The flowers appear to resemble on another, but "compact shrub" definitely doesn't describe how GWR performs for me. This thing DEFINITELY climbs.

I kinda like the idea of calling it Stove, Jeri. Makes me smile.

So did I catch a passing reference that the true identify of "Maggie" has been discovered?

I think the idea of calling a found rose simply "Stove" is missing out on a funding opportunity. How about getting gardens full of old roses sponsored by corporate interests?

The label could say 'Name Brand Item' (formerly called 'Mlle Van der Snoot', originated by J. Van der Snoot, 1896). I'll bet Descanso would be chomping at the bit for some of that corporate sponsorship...

Of course, roses that were originally named for products might provide special opportunities. If/when DA "discontinues" 'Fisherman's Friend', could Ricola pick up the sponsorship?

The mind boggles.

Virginia

I think if we look at the mother plant in the old cemetery (see above, "George Washington Richardson"/"Legacy of The Richardson Family") Climbing status does look probable. But then, we've only seen it grown in CA -- so there's a lot to learn.
Connie Hilker has it in Virginia, so we may learn more as time goes by.

Climbing is climbing, regardless of climate, though. Of course, in these climates it may achieve twenty feet, where in a more severe, shorter one, half, or less than that, but it will still appear as a very vigorous "bush" compared to less vigorous types, to the point where the severity of the conditions kills it. Think of reported sizes for Ballerina in Germany and Britain and compare them to the tree eating climber many SoCal climates permit it to become.

I do wish we had it in the U.S.

Rosefolly, it seems to me that at the HRF conference in Lakeland Maggie was identified through DNA as Eugene Marlitt...and Kakinada Red is also Eugene Marlitt. I believe this is correct. Malcolm may chime in or anyone else....

Susan

My Mme. de Sombreuil came from Vintage in March, 2013. However, my rose has never had the overall flesh pink tone of the rose that you show, Jeri, from the Sacramento Cemetery Garden. It looks more like the rose "Legacy of the Richardson Family, which seems to be more of a shaded white. Of course location can make a difference, or temperature, so all three may be the same. It's a pity that Diane never posted a picture of her rose so that I could compare it to mine. In fact, I don't recall her having posted at all lately, which is a pity.

Susan, From what I gather these roses are closely related, which is far as can be said using the limited number of DNA markers. They are not necessarily the same. much as 'spray cecile brunner' and 'cecile brunner' have the same markers.

Kim, mine looks exactly like yours, just a little bit of pink in the middle which doesn't really register if you look at the rose from a small distance. When it's put on more growth and is more mature I think this will be an outstanding rose. Good white tea roses aren't that easy to find, although I now also have Jesse Hildreth, which may very well be Westside Road Cream Tea. It's only about half a foot tall so it will take a while to provide competition for WRCT.

Thanks John! I will review my notes.

Kim, my MdS is similar to yours. Unusually warm temps so I still have a few blooms. Today I noticed a crimson blush on the petal margins of an opening bloom. Mine grew extraordinarily rapidly for a first year tea until I remembered it was budded on fort. Sweet scent, like lily of the valley. Mine is not similar to a noisette in habit.

Susan