Sammy --

"Francis Dubreuil" of-commerce is almost certainly the 1930-or-so Hybrid Tea, 'Barcelona.' It was a weak grower here for us on the SoCal coast, and somewhat troubled by mildew. I am told it's a terrific plant budded to Fortuniana, however.

"La Biche" of-commerce is almost certainly the true 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' int. circa 1850. It's great in CA -- but that doesn't mean much for your conditions.

'Sombreuil' of-commerce, now officially a Large-Flowered Climber per ARS, is a probable Hwich by breeding. It is OFFICIALLY 'Sombreuil.'

'Nicole' and 'Hannah Gordon' are, I think, the two similar Floribundas, which have been confused in commerce.

Jeri

Barcelona/Francis D. grows well on its own roots for me here. In the 4th year from a 1-gal plant, it is a leafy 4 x 4' and repeats quickly.

Jeri, Antique Rose Emporium gives the date of Francis as 1894. I do think it is an own root rose, but I certainly don't know much other than what I have purchased.

I bought two of them in the spring of 2007. They seemed to have been doing well until the past few weeks. I am afraid they do not like temperatures over 100 even if I water a lot.

Michael, is yours a rather fragile plant? Since I have two of them, it may not be the same plant, or it may be our temperatures or almost anything else.

Jeri, would Mlle Sombreuil (La Biche) be related to Sombreuil? My date for La Biche is 1832, and my date for Sombreuil is 1850. My Sombreuil is not as delicate as La Biche. Also La Biche has defoliated and not grown more leaves where it defolitated - just new leaves with new wood. Sombreuil is huge, and seems much stronger than La Biche.

I am not worried about Nicole's name because she is almost history.

Sammy

"Michael, is yours a rather fragile plant?"

My Barcelona/Francis D. is more winter hardy than typical HTs and floribundas. It is fairly susceptible to blackspot here. It is vigorous in the sense of producing many branching stems, but they are somewhat thin and flexible, so it does look sort of delicate.

About the identity of the roses. The one you bought as FD is not the 1890 French tea rose, which is probably extinct. It is now known to be the Kordes HT 'Barcelona,' mistakenly identified as FD, and disseminated by Beales.

The one you bought as 'La Biche' is now thought probably to be the same as the original French tea rose 'Sombreuil.' It is now sold by Vintage under the name, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'

There is no connection between your 'Sombreuil' and La B/Mlle. de S except a mistake in naming. Your 'Sombreuil' is a modern climber probably descended from 'New Dawn' but of unknown origin. It was found and mistakenly identified as a tea rose by an early heritage rose enthusiast. It has been reclassified as a LCl but was allowed to keep the name.

I wish the ARS folks had been willing to give the climber some different name. I think keeping the name Sombreuil on the rose just adds to the continuing confusion.

Jeri

I have the following roses in my no-spray garden and my experience with each of them. Hope this little bit of input will help you.

Duchesse de Brabant - 5 years old: healthy and free blooming
G. Nabonnand - In its 3rd year: Very healthy and beautiful blooms that are delicate and fragrant
Maman Cochet - Still in the pot ghetto
Mlle Franziska Kruger - In its 1st year: Healthy, but has not bloomed much for me at this time.
Monsieur Tillier - 5 years old: Healthy with beautiful blooms of unusual color.
Mrs. B. R. Cant - 4 years old: Very healthy, but is a space gobbler (grows very wide)
Mrs. Dudley Cross - 4 years old: Has BS, but it is thornless and the blooms are so large and beautiful that I can ignore the BS.
Natchitoches Noisette - In its 1st year: Healthy and nicely shaped shrub....I love it!

We have two Francis Debrueil (s). One in a pot. Both tend to be 'twiggy' but the one in the ground is five years old and a bloom machine, fairly clean and 5'x3'.

Jim

Roses I have on your list:

Alister Stella Grey- 5 years old. Keeping it. But loses enough leaves to look bad.
Duchesse de Brabant- 5 years- ditto. Not healthy but not hideous.
Etoile de Lyon- 5 years- one of the healthiest roses in my garden BUT if I was starting over this one wouldn't get a spot. Reason why- those dirty brown flowers that hang on for EVER. Sometimes the flowers are brown before they even open! Plus there's not enough fragrance to make putting up with the brown worth while.
Francis Dubreuil- 3 years old- love the fragrance. Not very big. Loses leaves but not enough to be taken out.
Lady Hillingdon- 5 years- I've never been happy with this one. Like the fragrance, but the BS is almost intolerable. And the blooms fry so quickly that I rarely see them.
M.F.Kruger- 3 years- I love the shape of this plant. Twiggy and outward spreading, not too tall. But it hasn't had leaves since spring and almost all of the bloomes have vegetative growth.

I have many others on your list- but some of them are too new to judge, and others are ones I know I have ... somewhere ... but I don't know exactly which ones they are to give an answer on their health.

Sammy,

I especially love right now Marie Van Houtte for its vigor, blooming habit and blooms. So far thrips have not been a problem and the blooms don't ball. I guess that's next year's problem :(

I especially do not love Etoile de Lyon for exactly what Carrie said above.

Duchesse de B was moved three times in its 3 years in my yard and since I dug up the front yard and put her in a lot of sun she is beautiful, clean and blooming. No mildew this year, which I was surprised at. She had problems in the back yard but it was too shady for her.

A new tea I am loving is Isabella Sprunt; it has grown a lot and has bloomed many of those pale yellow blooms. No bs or mildew problems.

I have a lot of the ones on your list and love all of them. Mrs. BR Cant was moved this year into a lot of sun and she is looking very healthy. I love her too. Mons Tillier is proving to be a healthy giant.

One I was not sure of is Souv de Pierre Notting, but it has bloomed a little and has grown some this year. It seems to be a slow starter. It seems to suffer a little more from bs, but not too bad.

Oh, you know, with Etoile, you just have to deadhead.
The bigger problem is failure to open in damp weather, BUT if you remove the guard petals, those blooms will promptly open.

Jeri

Well, and the other problem is that I have it next to MvH; I wanted the yellow in EdL to accent the yellows in Marie, but it just looks washed out to me. I'm giving it another year to see if I change my mind, but I really think a pink would go better.

Is it really cold sensitive? It died back a lot last winter and has had a harder time than any other tea coming back.

But anyway, it's not destined for the shovel, just a growl. But I'll remember to deadhead it and pull back the guard petals too. Thank you, Mrs. Jennings!

I really appreciate your report on the teas, Sammy.
Also, I very much liked the report you gave on china's, as that is my favorite class of OGR.

Of the teas you mentioned, I grow or have grown the following four:

G. Nabonnand: Very fine rose for me. I'm so glad to hear you like it too. It just might be my favorite tea of all right now.

Duchesse de Brabant: A special rose to me. Mostly because of its cupped bloom form and unparrelled, strong & consistent raspberry scent (to my nose).

Mrs Dudley Cross: I have always liked this rose, but the thrips have been relentless on it this year. This has been its worst year ever in my garden for beauty of bloom (or lack of beauty).

Maman Cochet: It had fast-growing "disco" arms in my garden. It's plant habit and me didn't get along in my small garden space. Very beautiful blooms ... always ... for me even when it was very young. So "old rose" looking to me, loved them. I often miss it.

I also have the old hybrid tea rose, 'Barcelona' / 'Francis Dubreiul'. I like it a lot. It's an example of what hybrid teas used to be like before they brought in all those funky colorations, awkwardly giant blooms, and stick-like growth habit. My 'Barcelona / Francis Dubreiul' is far removed from that "modern" look.

Also, for what it's worth, the tea rose I most want some day is 'Madame Antoine Mari'.

Randy

My 'Barcelona / Francis Dubreiul' is far removed from that "modern" look.

*** What a nice way to describe it!
I have some other young, older HTs coming up, which are promising here in fog-land. 'Red Radiance,' 'Mrs. Oakley Fisher,' and this yellow Found Rose, CLEARLY a Pernetiana, which is looking like being terrific here.
I wouldn't give my whole garden over to these, but they're a nice addition.
And 'G. Nabonnand' has really come into his own this year. Just a lovely thing in the garden.

Jeri

I hope you don't mind me hijacking your thread but will Barcelona/FD fry in my Florida sunshine? I had one in a container up north and loved his fragrance but I have been hesitant to try it here.

Duchesee du Brabant and Clementina Carboneri are spot free for me. Lady Hillingdon gets a few spots but nothing real serious. I have even better luck with chinas. I wish I had room for a noisette.

What about McClinton Tea and Georgetown Tea (I think this one was mentioned above)? Both of mine are new this year, being planted from potted plants I bought in March. They are growing pretty slowly but have not required spraying.

Lynn

Barcelona/FD fries in my Texas afternoon shade situation. But it's worth it for the fragrance.

My daughters came to visit, and I lost track of this thread.

Thank you all for posting.

Jeri and Michael, thank you. I wish the nurseries that I purchase from would have the name that you have. To me I love a beautiful rose, but I guess the names should be accurate.

It turns out that FD or Barcelona is not growing still. In time I may replace it. Tenor Peggy, I wouldn't even try this rose in Florida. It was fine last year, but this year with over 21 days of temps over 100, they are just sitting.

Jardineratx, I like that name. (I teach Spanish.) Your list is pretty close to mine. It is good to know what others are doing or how the roses are growing in gardens that are near mine.

Frogview, your zone is close to mine so I am glad your roses are doing well. I wonder if you have had the hot temps this year so far that we have.

cweathersby, why is your Etoile brown? I am considering getting fewer light colored roses because of the thrips. Either this is a very bad year for thrips or the odd temps have made it bad.

duchesse, I will add Isabella to my list. Marie is full and loaded with blooms, but they are not very pretty. I guess part of the problem is that I have watered so much because of the weather.

Jeri, I am not familiar with guard petals. Are many roses that way, if you remove the guard (outside) petals, they will blooms?

Randy our weather is much the same except you would logically be hotter. Madame Antoine Mari did not do well for me, and I discarded it. Unfortunately I did not keep notes, and do not know why.

I wonder if something has gone wrong with my Barcelonas. The two are together in front of Traviata, and beside SDLM. THe other roses are fine, but Barcelone just sits.

Tenor Peggy, I will add Clementina C. to my list also. Thanks for the response about Barcelona.

Georgetown Tea is one of my favorites. I have thought about trying to propagate it, but my skills in that area are pretty iffy.

Thanks everyone.

Sammy

Sammy, Bermuda's Anna Olivier was not very bothered (if at all) by thrips this year (new in March in my garden.) I really like her. No BS problem so far and a big bloomer & big grower. I just posted pics on Ingrid's "Spectacular Specimen" query. I'm really liking this "light colored" rose.

I posted about the roses on your list that I grow when this post was on the Roses Forum, so I won't do it again.

Mme Antoine Marie is doing pretty well here. I like her symmetrical round growth habit. Her flowers nod quite a bit and don't last very long at this point (2nd year) but all in all I'm pleased. I wonder why yours died. My Mrs Dudley Cross is quite ugly, especially her flowers, and everybody else raves about her. I'm taking stock, too, of my 2nd year roses. Blumenschmidt (1st year) is doing quite well. She has had vegetative centers (not bad just green eyes) all along and blooms a lot for such a young bush, doesn't seem to get BS much & the thrips weren't as bad a problem as on DdB which was totally infested this year and last year. I wonder if I should keep her since I've only seen a handful of nice flowers all year, and she's a big bush now. I'm really liking Blush Noisette though it's very young. I think it's going to be a good one. One that is VERY BS-free is an old HT, Mme Abel Chatenay (2nd year) and has been blooming continuously not in flushes. If you like magenta, Enchantress has been great (planted in March). So far hardly any BS & blooms a lot. General Schablikine is another fave, well foliated, minimal BS, blooms in flushes, gorgeous brick red irregular shaped flowers, doesn't seem to mind western sun.

I should have been out in the yard today since it's been cloudy until just the last hour and 82 degrees, but I am totally unmotivated now that summer is here full blast. I would feel more pressure to deadhead my 2 Marie Pavies but I have two Australian polyanthas arriving this week to replace them so no need. :))

Sherry

Sherry, you are not alone in the results of your MDC this year. Mine has been beautiful in the past, but this year almost every bloom has been butt-ugly tan colored. I don't understand what happened. The plant itself is still doing well.

Randy

Really! I just figured since mine is a baby (a rather large baby!) that accounted for the sorry blooms. Very strange, Randy. I wonder what the problem is. Mine doesn't have a whole lot of leaves. But I figure she'll get better.

Sherry

Sammy,
If you've never seen Etoile in person, you should. Many of the blooms are brown. It's not just thrips, it's not just seasonal. Yes I should deadhead better, to keep the ugly old brown ones from building up and just sitting there on the plant. But it's a big rose and I can't get IN THERE to get all of the old blooms! I could remove the guard petals. But I don't have that kind of time. It does bloom frequently with beautiful blooms (when not brown tinged) and the blooms aren't affected by heat or drought or anything else. It would be a perfect rose if the blooms were more fragrant and the blooms were not often brown, and if they didn't turn really brown and never fall off the bush.
Barcelona is slow- just give it time.
Isabella is a wonderful rose. The blooms do fry in the sun somewhat, but the fragrance is there, as is the beautiful bushy habit.

I have Etoile. It is new this year, but is not presently blooming. I will look for it as soon as it blooms.

Isabella Sprunt has another name, I think. I ought to try it again.

I am glad you said to give Barcelona another chance. I do like the name "Barcelona". My daughter told me that I would love the city.

Sammy