If it were RRD, I know what it looks like on Reve d'Or and you'd recognize it, too.

Tell us about the symptoms.
Is it a die back from the tips going backward?
Are newly leafed out canes wilting in the leaves followed by shriveling of the stems?
Is the same thing happening to all the canes at once? All the canes meaing old canes, two year old, one year old (although if yours are like mine, the year old canes from late fall are dead from winter (red brown colored) and the solid green canes (probably yearlings) are the healthiest.

Can you stand to pick one and go into excruciating detail as to what's happening?

Patricia, I am so sorry.
In a way I had similar story with nisettes, but I think for me it was that it is too cold for them here. I lost MAC to RRD, it was big and beautiful. I lost Crepuscule when it was 4 year old, also already big and beautiful. I thought it was winter that killed it, but who knows, just one spring it died on me. I lost Jaune Desprez and two Celine Forrestiers. The fist one definitely didn't like my winters, but CFs were somewhat different. I still don't know for sure what killed them.
((Hugs))
Olga

This is so horrible. I have no answer but just wanted to say how very sorry I am. I can just imagine your distress in losing beautiful, well-established roses like this. I know I'd be crying.

Ingrid

That's terribly disheartening, and discouraging.

Climate keeps shifting, and that may be a clue.
We have (probably) lost our 11 y-o MAC, which has never really recovered from the freakish freeze, 2 years back.

It is very hard.

Jeri

Ann, they seem to be dying from the bottom up. There is no strange look to the leaves, but they look like something you would find in a garden that had been neglected for years without fertilizer. The leaves look perfectly normal, the ones at the top. I am so perplexed but just suddenly they started losing foliage at the bottom, like "shedding" from blackspot but they did not have blackspot. Our winter was colder than usual but they were putting out foliage and putting on buds a week ago and I was afraid that cold snap might prevent the buds from opening and now I am seeing dying plants. We spent 2-3 hours this afternoon purning them back and taking out dead areas (which I must admit we took out one whole Crepuscule that was about 10 tall x 12 wide, almost to the root before we got all the dead off. We just kept finding dead.

I am so perplexed about this. I have never seen anything like it. What is even worse is that it other than the 2 potted Francis D's and Lemon S's that had RRD (and they were in pots) all else seems fine.

I have a garden show scheduled next week and now I have to call it off. This is almost the last straw for me, the beautiful climbers and hulking bushes that once were so full of bloom and beautiful fragrance, now dying, with canes and twigs that just "snap," when you touch them.

Olga, tell me, did yours ever break dormancy when they died or were they just dead as a result of a hard winter?

Needless to say after all the RRD I have been through, storms, etc., I am about ready to employ a bush hog. Not sure how much more I can take.

Ann, I am going back out tomorrow and look at them. I have some canes that had foliage on them that we have pruned off. I have some remaining that have foliage loss but still foliage remains. It sounds as though those are the ones you are talking about. I will look at them tomorrow. This is really strange because last week they seemed to be perking along just fine. DH asked me to come out and look at some of the big roses that did not have foliage on some canes and I was thinking just some down at the bottom, but no, it seems to have started at the bottom and has gone up, up, up whatever it is.

This is terrible. I'm so sorry. Do you have any pictures? How do the root systems look?

Gail, was your rose tour today? If so, how did it go? I know everything was lovely and impeccable?

I have not looked at the root systems. the roses just look like dead brown twiggy canes, like something killed off by lack of care or water, dead from winter kill, but two weeks ago they were green and budding and I was thinking next weekend is going to be a perfect time for my garden tour.

So disheartening. I was just so disturbed and started getting my husband all geared up to "let's prune all this out," and of course, we were using loppers and saws, etc., because they are big roses.

I am not going to dig them out (yet). I will leave them to see if they come back, if maybe this was some fluke of weather, but 2 weeks ago looking fine and we had that cold snap but it was not that cold, maybe 31 degrees, but I guess with young tender growth, that is a possibility.

We have plenty of cuttings from them so tomorrow when it is daylight, I will go out and see, maybe take pictures of or try to describe exactly how they look.

Oh, how awful. I hope they come back from their roots and it was just the unseasonable cold.

Patricia, I don't suppose you have a 'mean spirited' neighbor that got his hands on some 2,4-D do you? Heaven forbid but that did happen to to a friends Bradford Pear tree.
Hamp

Patricia, I feel your pain. My little Crepuscule was coming along nicely, then, all of sudden, yesterday, it is crispy. I'm still attributing it to this rather late cold spell we had. I'm also seeing entire canes die like this on Nastarana, Blush Noisette, and Champney's Pink. It's discouraging, to say the least.

Robert

Have you checked the roots - seems that gophers prefer some roses over others. Noisettes that I rooted, well I could almost look at the roots and tell it was a Noisette.

Trying to fit your conditions to what I've seen, I wonder if last summers misery (following last spring's freeze) let fungal spores into slightly weakened canes. Then as the warm temperatures of 2008 started to happen, the fungal problems IN the canse multiplied and you got death from the inside outwards. Fungi have optimal temperatures for growth (elsewise fungi would rule the world, horrific thought) and the optimal temperature time is now for some of the cane damaging fungi (based on what I've seen in a decade of resisting cutting off cankered canes only to loose them as they are girded by the same canker a month later in spring.)

I think there may be a potential for this to happen any year. But...most years the strengths that are in tea roses and thus in tea noisettes can overcome the fungal problems. But the moschata side of the noisette equation is not as strong (my moschatas are definitely still trying to recover from last spring. I have the brown canes on all of my moschatas. And I last year had leafed out canes on the moschatas that I later lost. BUT I didn't loose the moschatas. They are regrowing. But not with the vigor I wish they had. But I'll let them go at their own rate.

I think you and I may be having some problems with fungi going systemic. And it may be time to look seriously at some of the fungicides that use fungi to fight fungi.

Also take a look at the bases of the newest canes...are you finding a basal canker tied to new growth in contact with decaying mulch? (This problem takes out fall growth on my Paul Neyron every year. I've been watching it long enough to know the problem exists, but haven't a solution other than cutting the cankering cane off to direct growth early to replacment canes.)

Ann, I have been thinking similar to your thoughts but not exactly but then I don't come from a scientific background. I was thinking that the drought had probably weakened the roses and they started putting on growth and then we had that minor freeze, only 31 degrees recorded at airport; however, it could have been colder in my yard. That was minor but does it have to get down to 20 degrees when the roses are already weakened from the drought. With the drought, I did not use fungicides since I did not water as much. I watered well up until July but after July, I decided I could not continue that because my last water bill exceeded $1000 for one month.

At that rate, pretty soon I would be working for the water company. And I admit that my roses have always been watered very well up until July last year. Even though I quit watering frequently, the drought was still there and it still is, although we have gotten more rain this year than in the recent past 2, but 2 years of drought and the roses fighting everything on their own --- and then the freeze but your thinking sounds about right, unless they got verticillim (sp?) wilt.

However, if that were present in my garden, would it not affect other roses other than the noisette class and would it not have affected the ornamental fruit trees? For that reason, what you are saying makes far more sense than V. wilt.

On the positive side, Gloria de Dijon looks better this year than it ever has; MAC is doing fine; Allister Stella Gray looks great and so does Nachidoches (sp?) noisette, but those I mentioned are very bad and I think Fellenberg is a total loss.

We have decided to ask one of our agriculture guys to look at one of them before we take it down, but we are going to take them down to about 1-ft tall and see what happens Could it be worse?

Patricia, might I suggest that you treat them with Messenger this summer every 2 weeks? It's an immune-booster that works to strengthen. It sounds like the plants that had only known lush conditions were stressed by the unexpected frost and then by stopping their normal water intake last summer. The shock must have been difficult for them.

Whatever you decide to do, my sympathies are with you. Your heart must be broken in a thousand pieces as you clean up and repair the damage. You're such a gifted gardener - whatever you decide is sure to be even more beautiful and satisfying.

Sue

These are mysterious goings-on in your garden, Patricia. Please let us know what the agriculture guy has to say.

My only thought on the matter has to do with the drought conditions and watering. When I first started gardening with roses I took to heart the info I read about roses needing lots & lots of water. An experienced rosarian who helped guide me in those days felt that I was watering my roses - and esp my own-root OGRs - much too frequently, but not deeply enough for the roots to grow down to sufficient depth.

He felt that shallow root systems spell trouble both in times of drought and during prolonged periods of heavy precip. Striking a happy medium with my watering schedule is something I constantly struggle with, but I think the advice my mentor gave me 'way back when' is valid.

Patricia, I'm so sorry to hear about your Noisettes. It's heartbreaking to lose roses. I can imagine how difficult this situation must be.

Patricia, just another voice conveying sorrow for your rose problems. Thanks for persevering through all of this, and I hope you find some answers. Gean

Oh, thank you for all your sweet and kind words. We have used Messenger, Suze. That was my thought as well. One of the agriculture people is coming by Tuesday to take a look see and possibly some soil.

I will keep you posted. In the meantime, thank you for being such a supportive group. My tour for next weekend has been canceled. Really, the backbone of my garden is the noisettes. They set the backdrop for all else and without them it's just kind of nothing.

patricia I am having the same issues with two of my noisettes, but one is blush, in my garden. The ones next to it look good. I had time today to weed and work on that bed and it looks like canker at the base is the best way to describe it and I think that it's as Ann described, the late freeze last year was probably the culprit. It didn't show anything last year but seemed stunted. Soo that's my thought.

I am sorry for this news. I hope they will be okay with time and be able to stay in your garden.
I just wonder if it's the issue of the freeze combined with your heat. I know you water so don't believe drought was the issue. It is perplexing. I had the freeze here but no lasting damage.

Carla

Hmm . . . Well, I have to disagree with Carla & venture to say that drought may have been the issue. Right now, several of my Noisettes are not as lush with new growth and bloom as I would expect. The drought of '07 definitely extended into my zone and has taken a toll on roses & many other plants.

When moving Noisettes, I've been surprised at how close to the surface the roots have been (ie, growing out laterally rather than down into the soil). Has anyone else had this experience? Based on that observation, Jaxindel's post above seems to make sense to me.

Well, it could have been the drought because admittedly we quit watering 12 hours a day 2-3 days per week and cut back to about 8 hours per week, once per week so that could have been that. However, having said that why do the other 279 roses look fine?

disease that we do not know about. I will be interested in having a professional look at this and though I do believe it has to do with the drought, I am perplexed that all my other roses are fine except these noisettes (and of course, the RRD victims that I had but that was probably there last year and just did not manifest itself until spring) and then I have MAC, Gloire de Dijon, Blush, CPC and ASG that are fine.

I know that in every living thing there is some weakness in its immunity that "predisposes" it at times when conditions are more favorable for it to be infected and I am just wondering if there is some disease lurking that noisettes might be more likely to acquire given the right conditions.

So far everything looks good. Noisettes do very well for me here. I have a little Marechal Niel that is growing slowly, but has a bloom or two. My Georgetown Tea croked last summer, but probably from drought. Teas usually do well for me. Drainage and Blackspot seems to be the problem I have with my HTs and Florabundas.

Patricia,

My thoughts are with you. I hope you can find a cause for the death of your Noisettes.

Did you ever answer if it might be gophers or voles?

Ronda

Patricia,

I'm very sorry to hear about your roses; it must be crushing to lose such a large part of your garden! I would appreciate it if you will continue to post your findings and thoughts about the problem. It sounds like a mystery that needs to be solved. I'm always interested to hear what's going well and what's going badly in other people's gardens; we may all be able to learn something from your horrid experience.

Melissa

Patricia, I doubt that it is the drought but that's just MHO. There's a cemetery in Jackson that has several noisettes including Crepuscule and Reve d'Or. They've survived years without any care whatsoever even the drought we've had the last two years. Granted they're much smaller than what are grown in my garden but they're alive and kicking otherwise.
I had two roses to die after Katrina for no apparent cause and I attributed it to the winds whipping the canes back and forth and damaging the feeder roots.
Again, are you sure no one, power company included, has used any weed killer nearby? I know they routinely use something like 2-4,D and it will get into the root systems of plants pretty far away.
BTW I don't think you have gophers in Bama do you? It would take a lot of moles to kill that monster Crepuscule.
I'm anxious to hear what the agriculture guys have to say.
Hamp

Hi Patricia, I'm so sorry to hear about this. I can't really offer any explanations but I urge you to get a professional out to take a look at the situation. My Reve D'Or is blooming beautifully right now as well as my MAC. I did loose my first prized MAC on my pergola a few years ago to rose rosette but I bought another one and planted it in a different location and it is doing well. Last year was so bad but like you said, why would your other roses be doing okay with the exception of your noisettes?

I'm wondering if it's a combination of genetics that are mroe disposed to damage coupled with a 'worst storm' of fungal problems.
Hypothesis: The genes might be from Rosa moschata &/or Park's Yellow.
This from thinking back over the roses that I've had fits with getting to put on size after winter and having fungal problems when all about them were doing well.

I had the same problem with Noisettes in my garden. Of course, I'm in a much colder zone, but even Blush Noisette finally after 3 years gave it up. I put my problems at the feet of my Black Walnut trees, but maybe not. I had MAC and Celene Forrester from Pickering and BN was own root from ARE.

I'm so sorry for your loss Patricia. I know how horrible it must be. These roses are among the very best in show and fragrance. I could be a real noisette nut under different circumstances.

Barbara

Patricia I am so sorry you are having these problems. I hope you can get to the bottom of this.

It seems really strange that these particular roses all of a sudden died, while all your others are doing fine. I hope someone can get to the bottom of this. I would think they would have adapted to drought conditions the same as all your other roses. Besides, thirsty plants show thirsty plant symptoms for a while before dying, which usually isn't new growth before dying.

Maybe there is a specific illness that struck just the noisettes, or an animal that likes those particular roots. Although tragic, I hope that is all the problem is.

The other thought I have is that someone has done you harm by using a herbicide.

I have run across the (rare) neighbor (usually the type that sit on their duff and watch T.V. all day) become very jealous of my yard and the fact that I am actually working in it. The comments they made were obnoxious. Fortunately, most people are nice.

For 3 years I battled someone turning random drip irrigation tubes off in the hottest part of summer, as well as a couple of pvc irrigation pipes being chisled to the point of emptying our well out before I caught the problem. At the time the pipes were well hidden from the street because of all the large Knockouts I had. (Fortunately the well replenished itself quickly). The drip tube heads are the type that have to be twisted on or off. I checked with irrigation professionals to be sure that pressure changes couldn't cause that. They said no, that they had to be deliberately turned. Smashed sprinkler heads last summer too. I have lived here 11 years with no sprinkler head problems, and all of a sudden in a 6 week period 8 heads at a time were smashed.

I live in a nice gated neighborhood. It is hard to think someone who lives here would do these things, but their are nut cases in all walks of life, including professional people. I had my suspicions about a "friend" who lives in here that I found out was extremely jealous of me. (No longer a friend, neeedless to say). Putting two and two together, the problems started after this "friend" moved here. I had no prior problems to this. I finally got the word out that we were going to put surveillance cameras up, and that I was going to prosecute whoever was doing this. Soon afterwards, the problems stopped. I hope it stays stopped.

It is difficult for those of us who are kind to fathom that someone could become jealous in the first place, let alone act on it. Unfortunately it happens.

Sandy

We do have their opinion, certainly not a diagnosis. I really have a problem accepting it just as I would the new lawn mower guy 's opinion that all my clematis took ill and died but in reality, he cut them all down with the weedeater. Darn, why did my regular guy get sick?

Particia:
If you remember, I had a Crepuscule try to dye one year and we couldn't figure out why. We finally decided it must be from the ground like voles, etc. We bought a product called Voles Away or something like that from the Coop and dug a trench out from the base of the rose, put the stuff in and covered it up. Afterwards, Crepuscule began to heal. This might be worth a try just in case you have voles or the like in the ground.

It is very sad to have a large rose and see it in trouble. Hopefully, yours will survive.