Actually Lola, this is not in relation to any specific post but is a general query as to why, with all the plants available, the gardening US public really tends to seem a bit backward when it comes to perennials. This is not the case on some of the more specialist forums - fragrant plants for example, or fruit and orchards, and have to conclude that they are being offered a limited choice. I am not pushing my likes or dislikes(much) and yep, I DO have echinaceas, heuchera, daylilies and even a couple of (very sad) hostas - I do recognise that they are classic plants.....but there are so much more......I am actually dying to hear about new plants and where better than the US with its extreme climate changes, its hugely diverse geography (such as the Texas flaxes I have just ordered - linum rigidum and L.hudsonioides). It used to be a complete crapshoot, ordering seeds, but now, I can at least converse with other gardeners who might have tried them. We, the end-users, customers, gardeners whatever, are the best at teaching each other because we do not have any agenda to sell something, we are not limited by immediate availability, we just need to know that such a plant exists and is gardenworthy. If I could, I would be first to enrol on a real plant-hunting trip but that is not very likely so these forums are my substitute (I lost patience with gardening media a long time ago)I know you probably cannot get a specific named variety but there will be equivalents. It is just about breaking the mould and trying something new - I don't care if they fail (this happens to me more often than not so I am immune) and I think we should encourage each other and report back (with pics if possible).

Love the rant!! I do have daylilies and echinaceas, but not hostas (soooo boring) and whatever the other "h" thing is. I'm trying to broaden my horizens this season and add some iris and daylilies, but I just can't seem to get into them like I've been able to get into roses. There's just so many more varieties, history, and forms to roses, than to the others...or so it seems. Sure, they're easier to grow, but I enjoy the challange.

I've ordered a fair amount of iris & daylilies for delivery this summer and fall and I like them, but I don't LOVE them like the roses. Maybe I'll come to love them, but they always say your first love is the strongest, right?

Tammy

Campanula, you might to have a look at the flowers and herbs forum at idigmygarden.com.

Idig is mostly about vegetables, but there are ornamental gardeners as well and they do not confine themselves to hostas, etc.

Do avoid the Politics of Food, my favorite, naturally, unless you want to find yourself in the midst of a rip-roaring, no holds barred, all-
American, manners schmanners, 'tact'? never heard of it, fight club.

I hear you.... but then again, I don't know that I have seen a whole lot of rare and unusual perennial discussions over here on the AR thread.
if you have the wallet for shipping in rarer stuff it can be had. I found Annie's Annuals from a posting on the perennial forum and they have a nice runner up for that Ebony superior angelica you suggested, which I might get. They have a ton of fantastic succulents that just are not going to work here too. (pulling a sad face)

I think one other thing you might see going on is when someone comes along and asks for suggestions for a shade bed, most people are going to suggest something that the OP can actually acquire and won't struggle keeping alive. Baby steps.

You do have a sympatico grouping here on AR for the species roses though, which I know you love. Doubt you'd get much love for them anywhre else in the GW. And just for old roses (many of which I know you don't love!) -- the wealth of info here is fabulous. People know so much.

I want to say one last thing..... Ken is a little bit obnoxious and sets people off all the time. I realize he is trying to be funny (he gave me quite the stern intro when I asked opinions about a poorly sited lilac) ...he can put people off ==there are several threads where he's being chopped down for being surly. he does not represent the perennials. I think you should keep sharing your wealth of info over there and ignore the knuckleheads. People are listening and interested in your suggestions=== atleast I am!

I think that a phenomenon that has plagued the heuchera-daylily-hosta-echinacea circuit is similar to one which has plagued the modern rose circuit (I'm ducking now): novelty for the sake of novelty that is a little short on aesthetics.

For example, Heuchera micrantha is a lovely CA native, loved by hummingbirds, and very beautiful in its natural form (I found some plants of Old La Rochette, by the way, Jackie -- love it). Why, why, why do the leaves need to be all sorts of weird colors and shapes on weak plants? Tetraploid daylilies have far less grace and charm, in my eyes, than the regular old diploid ones. And so on.

Why not grow new species instead of extending the old ones to ridiculous lengths?

Jolly good rant, and for what it's worth...I loathe Hostas and Daylilies. If other people love them, then I'm glad someone does, because I (with respect) do not. Years ago I lived in a house which had once had a rather elaborate garden planted, which was then totally abandoned and let go. There were loads of daylilies...and I HATED them, and eventually, took a pick-axe to them and heaved them over an embankment. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

ah yes Ken - I LOVE Ken (especially when he goes off on one - foo-foo plants and all that). In fact, his truculent lack of patience absolutely fails to hide a heart filled to the top with an urgent desire to get people actually out there doing it.

Oh yes, Catspa, I surely agree. It is definitely time to reclaim our gardening powers and investigate the simple and easily grown and avoid the over-hybridised and tricky types - although I would like to learn about a new plant every week or so and to actually try to grow a few every season - seed collecting, seed swapping, home propagating and passing things along are utterly satisfying and certainly give me a longer lasting pleasure than a plant I have had little investment in nurturing, no matter how rare. expensive or exotic. To go back to the very basics, surely we all remember watching that runner bean, thrusting its great white radix into the tissue paper in our jam-jar....or when we planted a fat sunflower with grubby childish fingers. I am just not having it that even the most expensively rare and beautiful plant can ever sustain that true joy of watching life unfold beneath your hand....so I am thinking that, much as we want to support our nurseries, we are feeding our own heads and hearts too.

I am actually very fond of Joe Pye Weed and grew it in a very marshy bed in Tennessee along with Aconitum and some other plants that did not mind wet feet - here in the coastal plain of North Carolina even in a spring and early summer that is wetter than the norm, none of these plants would survive - I know because stubborn person that I am I have tried.

When I came home from work to my hill in Tennessee and the late afternoon light was shining from behind that bed Joe Pye was the most beautiful thing you could imagine. In parts of Tennessee the same is to be said of its relative Iron Weed in its natural setting on the Cumberland Plateau.

Every plant began its pilgrim's progress as a weed of sorts and in my limited experience in many cases the closer you get to the weed ancestor of today's hot item the more likely you are to find something of value that is also a survivor (in the right place). Which is one of the reasons that I prefer "old roses" although not exclusively.

Whatever, we grow what we can where we find ourselves and I am not such a snob that in a garden fraught with shade I would turn up my nose at hostas - there is actually one in the middle of my garden that is one of the largest and most impressive plants imaginable. There are also many different ferns here and hellebores and iris although not of the bog loving sort and some day lilies that would probably not meet the purity test but which add much needed color to my summer sea of green. In the spring I have azaleas and the aforementioned iris and my once blooming roses which do well in areas where others could not survive. But by June their glory is over and color is hard to come by in the majority of my little plot.

In truth mine is a very democratic garden in that nature has for the most part decided what I may have despite the preconceived notions that I arrived with fifteen years ago when I was forcibly transplanted here.

At least once in every season, I continue to try something that I know is probably doomed to fail, but if I were not pushing the possibility envelope, I would likely not has nearly as much fun as I do.

I am convinced that gardeners do truly live longer or at the very least better lives simply because we are always anticipating the glory of the next season. So I will continue to grow what I can and mourn only briefly those things that are not possible that I treasured in another place and time and try not to forget that one gardener's weed is another gardener's treasure.

For the record I love Ken too. I generally roll my eyes when people their knickers in a knot about his directness (run it over with a truck!!!... kind of thing)

Beautifully put, Lotti.

I've enjoyed this post------my gardening is very limited these days but I do have the luxury of visiting my son's Perennial nursery---he has some unusual plants--I hear many positive remarks about the variety of his plants

sure wish I were at least 20 years younger---LOL

We are trying to downsize house and garden but I still enjoy the roses I have left

Florence

Campanula, I for one have truly enjoyed your posts both here and on the perennials forum. But I believe you forgot about ubiquitous US generic perennial #5--rudbeckia! LOL. I do grow happily representatives from all 5 groups, in addition to my own clump of Joe Pye Weed (one of the best plants for attracting bees and other pollinators).

For what it's worth, I strive to include as many unusual, overlooked plants as I can. I am a fan of many of the "big boned perennials" you listed, especially the umbellifers but most are not cold hardy enough for me. I have even been struggling with Angelica which is oddly not *heat* hardy enough. I LOVE Crambe cordifolia, but in my area it is not even a fraction as reliable as its smaller cousin C. maritima. As far as I know, mine is the only garden within a 100 mile radius to feature C. maritima.

Geraniums are of special interest to me yet many of them struggle in the extremes of my continental climate, especially summer heat. I dream of giant clumps of Geranium psilostemon and its many hybrids, but so far I have never been able to keep any of them alive for more than a season. The recent Chicago Botanic Gardens trials published in 2012 confirmed my own experiences with these plants. But I have found many other lovely geraniums which perform beautifully and consistently: Orion, Blue Cloud, Blue Sunrise, Sirak, A.T. Johnson (which Christopher Lloyd said was a sign of an unplanned garden, lol), Derrick Cook, Moran, Mayflower, Melinda, Rosemoor, etc. And I absolutely LOVE Rozanne. It is one of my most favorite perennials. But I do wish people would accept its quirks and learn how to use it properly.

Because of your encouragement I ordered seeds of Thalictrum delavayi 'Album' from Jelitto. They just arrived this week. I dream of a mess of the plants lighting up the north facing bed in front of my house.

Please keep ranting away and don't stop posting on the perennials forum. Your insight and perspective are too valuable to lose!

I'm enjoying this post and particularly like Lotti's comments too. I garden in rather a cultural vacuum, with very little contact with other gardeners, no visits to exciting nurseries or gardens, as there aren't any nearby. I have an impression that Italy is generally horticulturally backward. So just about everything in the gardening world is novel to me. I must look into hostas: I love foliage plants, and they might do well down in the shade garden (see what your rant has accomplished, Suzy?). I like heucheras quite a lot, too. I do agree with Catspa's remarks about hybridized plants that are more striking than pretty. When I select plants from Priola nursery's huge variety (they're one of the rare shining lights of Italian gardening culture, specialized in perennials) I go for the more inexpensive varieties. My bet is that they're older, generally less hybridized, and easier to grow, and all this suits me fine. And in fact I like the plants I get, possibly because I don't know any better, but perhaps because they're closer to species and more natural looking. I also greatly value the contribution that our natives make to my garden: geraniums, anthemis, violets, poppies, mulleins, field sage and Salvia glutinosa, saponaria, euphorbias, pulmonaria, fennel, wild gladiolus and who knows how many others. I accidentally cut down a wild pink in the garden the other day, the only one, Lord help me. Maybe others will arrive. How many of you are going out and exploring local ditches and roadsides and woods for plants to bring home to your gardens?

I love lilies but gave them all away after I learned that they can cause kidney failure in cats if they eat even just a little. One thing that most people don't grow near me is the large Carnations. I finally learned to grow them well and made a special area for them. I also like the large exhibition Chrysanthemums and Dahlias. I have to work hard to grow decent Delphiniums and Tuberous Begonias but its worth it. The plants I wish I could grow are Lily of the valley, Tulips ( only last one season here ) Astilbe, Flowering Cherry, Dierama, True Cinnamon and yes, Hostas. Hostas won't grow here and I think they are beautiful. I have killed my last one, I won't sacrifice any more trying so I just settled on ferns and ivies. There's a person in Irvine who plants a stunning bed of Phlox and Poppies every year. In another garden, Iris and Gladiolus reign in splendor. I always drive by to see them every year. Another person plants a yard full of Zinnias, and Daisies. I used to be the Azalea person but I moved on to Camellias and gave up my Azalea spaces. Raccoons make it hard to grow anything that can be yanked from the soil. Much of my color has been moved to hanging pots but it limits me to smaller plants like Begonias and Epies and Orchids.

Oho, it is so great to hear about this fantastic variety of plants - and in my woods, there is a southern border where hemp agrimony grows....and where a clump of Joe Pye Weed and vernonia crinita (and, Isphahan, various rudbeckia) are deffo going to eventually sit. It is thrilling (to me) to talk about plants but especially when nudged to consider something new. And that, my friends, is much more likely to come from us, on these forums, than many other places because we can be both general and specific.

I did mention wild flowers because it is true, these tend to come true from seed (which can, so far, cross borders without requiring plant passports and controls), germinate fairly easily and, as far as I am concerned, fit well with my untidy and inconsistent gardening style. We do have a paucity of UK natives so I have been plundering the european mainland for plant seeds (the East Anglian climate can sustain a surprising number of hardy garrigue or maquis type plants).......but north America is an absolute treasure trove....and for some reason, in the UK, we have concentrated on the flora of Asia, S.Africa, S.America while Australia and NZ, as well as the US, have been much less explored. I know I should check out the native forums.....but honestly, I don't have it in me to withdraw from either ARF or perennials BECAUSE I REGARD YOU ALL AS MY FRIENDS.....which is also why I feel quite alright moaning on.
This has been an enjoyable discussion for me - I am longing to hear more about your 'weeds' (I so envied Jacquelines yellow oxalis....compared to our much nastier, smaller, weedier variety).

I'm curious. What makes you think North American is an absolute treasure trove of undiscovered ornamentals? My part was plundered by the Europeans several centuries ago, so that most of our easily grown natives have disappeared into the morass of too common garden plants. Dogwoods, azaleas, asters. eupatorium, lobelia ....

Then there are the true native wildflowers, as opposed to those that wandered in from further west. The woodland ephemerals can be a b**** to grow. Lady slippers are the most notorious. The only one that is remotely common (or easy) is Virginia bluebells. The rest require complicated germination instructions, and years of ongoing care to survive. How they do it on their own is beyond me.

I'd like to reiterate what others have mentioned. America has diverse climates. What's rare and exotic in one place is very common and "boring" in another. For example, I have one hosta. In central Florida hostas are difficult to grow, so I'm very fond of my little hosta.

I think more likely from our side of N. America, mad gallica, because our flora has so many more annuals and more diversity in general (not having to be uniformly adapted to harsh winters/wet summers). I still remember being amazed, ca. 30 years ago, that the only readily accessible source of seeds for many California natives (when I was living on the East coast) was Thompson & Morgan. Go figure!

Many species from genera native to here or the western U.S. in general, e.g., Godetia (Clarkia), Nemophila, Mentzelia, Madia, Limnanthes, Polemonium, and Penstemon to name just a few, were sent to Europe, tarted up, and then sent back to us in "new and improved" forms. Nearly all of them are easy to grow from seed, especially the annuals.

This post was edited by catspa on Sun, Jun 9, 13 at 11:55

As stated above, I agree. I do love an occasional rant and thought I would add my two cents, for what they are worth. I believe that the difference in the two forums boils down to gardening philosophies. Most of the time, I love the relationship that I have with my plot of Earth. I give to my garden and it gives back generously. In my perspective, however, I do love the relationship between perennials and roses. Instead of a many notes of the same kind, I enjoy an orchestra of both brass, string and weed instruments.My "symphony" has peonies, lilies (oriental and daylilies), veronicas, sylvias, crocosmia, irises, lavender and a host of other perennials. Let me be clear though, roses hold the brilliant solo parts. I have been around roses and their admirers for a while now (mother is an avid gardener and occasional contributor here on the forum- hence the "2ndgen" part of my title) and have witnessed and enjoyed their generosity of mind, spirit and possessions. Ann in E TN and my mom helped donate and arrange roses for my wedding--

I believe that roses encourage a type of personality: a bit of grit to believe that a)you can grow them successfully (when many can't or won't) and b)enough stubbornness to not mind a good swipe of a thorned cane, a dash of romantic in you to swoon at a gorgeous rose bud, and a touch of an optimist in the future. Those qualities tie me to rose lovers around the world and for that I raise my glass...

well who is it then??? Your mum, that is? You can't leave us hanging with hints, 2ndgen? Bet your mum is proud.
Mads, I think Catspa has hit the nail on the head - because I have a sunny open and dry allotment, I gravitated towards various annuals (annuals are tops for me because I am like a toddler with behavioural problems - no attention span and in need of continual novelty), First off, I picked all the obvious SA daisies, (felicia, ursinia, gazania, osteospermums etc.....) but a whim led me to look up US natives. MY god, there is the treasure trove - they might seem prosaic to you but to this colour -loving Brit, they were glorious, cheap and best of all, easy. Little platystemons, layias, phacelias, abronias, tassel flowers, collomia, escholtzias(sp?), zauschneria - talk about a kid in a sweet shop. Last year, I had a phlox moment (another underused plant) and this year, illiamna, sphaeralcea and flax have been ordered (along with heaps of oafish campanulas, foxgloves, wood-asters, aquilegias, aconitums and anemones) - especially since I am horribly aware that my sunny open garden days are numbered....and I am not quite up to hogweed battles without some immediate treats.

just going to add my two cents' worth... I am a beginning gardener, past middle age !!! and I for one see that gardening is a very personal thing, each of us interprets our canvas differently and/or according to our budget, climate, ground, and availability. I now live in a maritime climate where the closest garden centres are Canadian Tire and Walmart !!!! I have had to adapt to the conditions here and am still on a huge learning curve. I hate to think that anyone would find my little beloved garden boring or inartistic just because I do indeed have hostas, daylillies and azaleas. I live for the gardening season to start and the delight I feel by wrestling this rocky, windy, salty patch of earth into something I find more and more satisfying and beautiful, is quite a surprise to me. Yes, probably the day will come when if I can find them, I also will venture into more exotic, different plants, but for now, I can't afford to toss away money on plants that won't live here, as I learn. So I say, any form of gardening should be admired and accepted, you don't know what that gardener may have achieved in his own life in the creating. Amen. BTW, I love rants, but always want to keep respect for other's opinions.

Oddly, BlackGavotte (great name) I never find other people's gardens boring, just my own cos I see it every day.....but you are, of course, absolutely right regarding respect for each others opinions.

First- I love Campanula rants too!

I think that the problem might be more of the American "commercialization" problem. There really isn't all that much of a nation-wide gardening community. Which makes sense because the climates are so varied. So whatever information ends up being shared is almost always for people new to gardening or people who think of plants as "problem solvers" for their yard. And that information is, nearly always, going to come from the sellers not the enthusiasts. I'm not sure how clear I'm being- but what I guess I'm saying is that there are millions of people in the US who love plants but they aren't always the ones whose voices reach above a very local level.

PS It's kitten season so I've been busy and stressed. Rose photos make everything better- thanks everybody!

Campanula-
My Mum went by TheOldRoseGirl. She used to be a regular contributor before she went back to school to be a nurse. She is in the process of moving here to Nashville and will most likely start being more involved when her life settles down.

The Antique Rose Forum does have some of the most diverse and interesting threads! Thank you for introducing this one, Campanula. At some point, maybe we could start a thread that includes photos of our rose companions, a list of recommended perennial (and annual) wonders, and the names of internet nurseries that offer some of our favs. Since I'm fascinated by all things historical, one of my favorite catalogs is Old House Gardens. This company carries numerous and rotating antique and rare bulbs, but it also offers daylilies (yes, heirloom daylilies), peonies, irises, and several other types of plants. I am completely charmed by the knowledge that some of the daffodils dancing in my spring garden have been winning hearts since the Medieval and Renaissance periods. Old House Gardens is all about historical preservation as well as happy gardeners. Sometimes new cultivars knock my socks off, but don't forget that everything old can be new again!

Carol

I must say, Carol, I have been enjoying your posts and regard you as a nifty addition to the forum here. A lot of the time, I feel I am having a rambling conversation with my mates - I suspect most of us feel the same, which allows us to be tangential, gossipy, contentious and even irrelevant. ARF has morphed from a mere information portal into a free-range, organic discussion space - so much more healthy and nutritious.

2Gen - we will await your ma's return (I love the ambiguity of her name too) and hope she feel like she is having a reunion of sorts.

The ARF community is a very special one--absolutely bursting with humor, passion, frustration, empathy, and joy...and a deep commitment to gardening! It's a great honor to join your "free-range, organic discussion." Thank you, Camapanula. --Carol

Campanula makes some interesting points in all that she has to say. Others have also added some fuel to the fire as well. In my own yard, I only have one hosta that has never bloomed for me. I pick on other plants for some variety that I hope will do well in the unpredictable and sometimes harsh weather realities here in tornado alley. I happen to like lilies, peonies, irises, dictamnus/gas plants, astilbes, tritomas/kniphofias, and Bletilla terrestrial orchids among other things. I see all sorts of the same kinds of stuff all over town, but I don't like to have what everyone else has. I am definitely an outside-the-box person when it comes to what I have including the fact that I do not have one Knockout series rose in my garden. They are everywhere else. I don't need it. Just my two cents worth.

If I may, I'm finding the air a bit rarified in this forum at the moment. The tenor of this thread is essentially that of, "wouldn't it be nice if everyone's taste was as well developed as ours?"

We all like to surround ourselves with like minds. And I do recognize that this is a very tight community, and in it there are many people that have very refined and educated tastes in the gardening world.

But never, ever forget: nobody likes a snob.

don

Word.

Hear, hear.

Henry Mitchell was of a refinement second to none, but he was a stout defender of people's right to garden as they pleased. He's still great to read. I agree with Suzy, and just about everybody who has posted on this thread, about the beauty and excitement of plant variety and exploration. But I hope I'm a Voltairean gardener: "I may not agree with what you grow, but I will defend to the death your right to grow it".

Melissa

Why take a general rant and subsequent outpouring of enthusiasm as a personal insult and snobbism? I have Heucheras and daylilies (Echinaceas and hostas I am not going to attempt in this garden and climate), as do we all, I presume. I also have a bunch of other pedestrian species -- agastaches, petunias, pansies, hardy geraniums, pelargoniums, and many other "humdrum" plants in quantity. I grew lots of hostas in Massachusetts when I lived there (liked the ones with fragrant flowers). I also grew an Agapanthus in a pot in MA and gave it away as a treasure to the president of the local gardening society when we moved back west (location, location, location). "Big Hort" should have no complaint about me.

I also grow some plant species that are not readily or ever available in commerce, though I wish they were more available (I have cadged them by artifice and by accident over the years). They are by and large great garden plants, but nobody knows about them. This forum, and related ones, are a way to let others know that they exist and maybe inspire folks to try something new. For one thing, it's fun, and also not that hard, and I kind of hope that is the sentiment that is mostly getting through. I get lots of new ideas here, too. For another, some of these species are so rare in the wild, the only place they may survive is in horticulture (for the Antioch dunes evening primrose, for one, that's almost where it's at -- and though it's similar to Oenothera pallida, it's even prettier, I think).

So, should we all stifle our enthusiasm and only talk about common plants lest we risk appearing snobbish or make someone feel less-than-complete? (Gee, I don't envy the possessors of Splendens or Venusta Pendula -- much). When it comes to their garden, everyone has to do what they can and suit themselves and not give too much weight to others' opinions -- what else can you do and remain sane? I do love hearing about and seeing other gardens. New ideas!

Ho Don, I recognise the very syndrome to which you are referring (and have been horribly guilty of it too) but I am hoping this was basically a plea for us to look a bit further than the (diminished) selection of nursery sales and try summat different (then tell us all about it). It did seem to me that the crew on ARF were more up for doing this than the people over at perennials (which really surprised me).

As an example, not related to gardening: My family were not great cooks - there were many items of food I had never seen, let alone eaten......and I would probably never tried without being urged to do so by other more adventurous cooks. It is entirely possible that I might have gone through a whole lifetime without ever trying zucchini, sourdough, okra (although I could continue to give that a miss), plantain, raddichio, chicory.....and many, many more. I even had to educate my (utterly unrefined) tastebuds to accept many veggies - a good northern girl considers vegetables to be potatoes and, at a stretch and purely for health, peas (frozen).

Not that I indulge in anything remotely gourmet-style.....but I cannot imagine doing without the salty yumminess of either anchovies or olives - both of which had to be practically forced into my reluctant mouth.

And hey, haven't we all had fun?

Let me explain how I understood Don's post and why I sympathize with it.
It's great to grow and write about rare, outstanding, unusual plants: that's one of the primary reasons the forum is here. It's not so great to write about how banal and boring some plants are, and therefore by implication how banal and boring are the the gardens they grow in and the gardeners who grow them. There are gardeners of all kinds here, including probably some who are enthusiastically growing the plants they find at the big box stores. Some of these gardeners may discover much more refined and thrilling plants and continue on to them, and never grow a privet or an echinacea again. Others may spend their lives growing body bag Hybrid Teas and English laurels and be perfectly happy. Each gardener gets to choose. The forum will work best and live longest, I believe, if we welcome everybody who comes, regardless of what we grow or how we grow it, as long as we're interested and curious, asking and answering questions, and sharing what we grow and how we grow it, the common and the rare. That way neophyte gardeners--experienced ones, too--will have a comfortable place to be and to learn.
I was a member of an Italian gardening forum for some years, and its philosophy and moderators were a good part of why I wasn't sorry when I stopped going there. The professed goal of the forum was to raise the standards of Italian gardening. The moderators were visible and active and sometimes they had a heavy hand. It was suffocating. I became reluctant to write a post because a moderator might weigh in and say it was off topic or wrong in some other way. There were threads in which posters were criticized for their low horticultural or aesthetic standards. The people who did continue to post seemed to be the ones who were most in agreement with the moderators. The latter were certainly competent, but they weren't perfect, either, yet it became hard to see a point of view or an idea that the moderator didn't approve of. The forum got dull. People abandoned it. There was no longer a reason to read the posts, and I stopped doing so.
The prescriptiveness of the Italian forum destroyed it for me, that idea that this is right/good and that is wrong/bad. I have strong ideas about what I want to grow and how to grow it, and I'm happy to share them; but I try not to condemn other ways of doing things. That just makes people feel bad and drives them away. It won't make better gardens or happier gardeners. And it could be that someone else will come up with a great idea that never occurred to me, if they're not intimidated into silence.
Melissa

Hi again-

I certainly did not take the thread as a personal insult, @catspa. I realize that wasn't its intent. I did take it as a bit of snobbism, as I expressed.

What occurred to me most reading this thread was that that the collecting of a great variety of plants- however wonderful they may be- does not a beautiful garden make. I too am a collector and I constantly struggle with the 'dog's breakfast' look of my garden.

The gardeners that inspire me most are those who can take a few varieties of simple (even banal) plants and with them compose something magical and unforgettable. Take the Japanese traditions, for example. A few irises, a few azaleas, some flowering trees, and the principles of balance, harmony, space, air, rock, water.

don

Nicely said Mellissa.
The problem with internet nattering, is that one often forgets the whole world is watching. All the gardeners who lurk herein, who read mulitple forums etc. are reading your summing them up as "less refined", less intelligent in all ways. (...really?) Notice how many of the regular forum posters have not showed up here to add to this? Some really really really amazing gardeners have avoided this topic completely. ( i actually think *they* are being refined in doing so)

here's the opposite side to the love of wild plants from other continents..... We've got big problems over here from Orange Hawkweed, Campanula rapunculoides etc. etc. All got their foothold here as rare and exotic ornamentals. There are actually good reasons to prefer plants that are 1) either native to your land, or 2) need a little coddling to survive in their new homeland. Things like honeysuckle, kudzu, ivy all started out as rare.... This is why I never ever buy those "wildflower seeds Packets". There is trouble in that little bottle.

If you personally have unusual plants to talk about and share- please do, but why hate on other's choices?

#sanctimonious

I haven't joined the discussion before because I felt that my English may not be adequate to express my opinions. I am not an adventurous gardener. When I started my present half acre garden, much larger than my previous small patio garden, roses were my first choice. I am adventurous in my choice of roses and have ordered plants from France, Germany and the United States, but not in my choice of perennials that serve as a foil for the roses. Most are very common in Swedish gardens, blue delphiniums (12 varieties), 15 varieties of geraniums, 6 campanulas, 9 salvias, 12 dianthus, 7 daylilies, 13 violas, 10 phloxes and 12 hostas because I have a lot of shade. The important thing for me is the impact of masses of plants and the overall look of the garden. I am not interested in the individual exquisite plant. I am also a sentimental gardener, I cherish all plants that were given to me, irises from a former neighbour, white martagons, clematises and astrantias from a friend in Stockholm, even an ubiquitous alchemilla sent to me by an internet chum in county Cork in Ireland in the early days of the internet. I have other perennials but these are what make the show in my garden. I occasionally sow seeds to get flowers for a new bed but they tend to be more of the same, dianthus and campanulas. Campanula latifolia 'Lotze's Dark Bells is my latest effort.

I joined the Garden Amateurs as a new gardener, a very select society where everyone gets their seed from the Scottish Rock Garden Club, or used to, but I withdraw very quickly. I don't want a rock garden and I don't want a pond. I want a homely garden of familiar flowers. The only annuals I grow are those my grandfather and my husband's grandmother grew, sweet peas, annual asters, corn flowers and marigolds. I like to feel part of a tradition. Besides, I like to have flowers for the house. My edibles are another thing, I can be adventurous with them.

I beg pardon, Lola, but I think this is getting out of hand - no-one has suggested anyone here is 'less-refined' and as for 'hate' - well that is quite a strong word and while it may be bandied about in relation to certain plants, it has categorically never been extended to the growers of those plants.

I agree with the suggestion that the arrangement of plants, the composition, makes for great impact. In my former life, I was a professional garden designer who worked in all kinds of spaces. I not only gardened in my yard, I gardened in and on clients' balconies, large rural properties, small urban properties, potted commercial gardens, and community garden plots. Whatever the plant content, it was my job to design a healthy, attractive arrangement.

I volunteered in low-income housing gardens where all plants were donated ones and all were as carefree as possible. I think that my colleagues and I created some really lovely spaces for very busy people with lots on their plates. It never ceased to amaze me what could be done with rhodies, hostas, dayliles, violets, rugosa and native roses, etc.

I also worked in collectors' gardens where the challenge was to organize a constant flow of new arrivals in established gardens without regularly rearranging every plant on the sites. I once informed a client in no uncertain terms that the Gunnera had to return to the nursery. Fortunately, we had a solid gardener-to-gardener relationship, and she completely understood that the "dinosaur food" would eventually become a brontosaurus in a bed of house cats! This particular client adopted some of the most unusual specimens, many of which challenged my design eye and introduced me to new gardening possibilities.

My own garden is rather like Mariannese's, I think. I am a cottage dweller and cottage gardener. It makes me happy growing plants that my parents and grandparents grew. My garden is chock full of not only roses but also hydrangeas, mock oranges, daylilies, violets, columbines, daffodils, phlox, and others. I grow many sentimental pass-along plants. In fact, for me, one of the attractions of old roses is the pass along history. I used to follow the TX Rose Rustlers' adventures as they searched the trail for unnamed delights. I love it that people carried their roses with them through great hardships. In those plants resided something precious about life itself.

Another love of mine is anything antique or heirloom. I love the timelessness of raising plants that people have grown for centuries. Participating in the continuity of cultivated plant life elicits in me a sense of connection to all who have gardened before me. Of course, people have been creating and enjoying new and interesting cultivars since civilization began, so in a manner of speaking, it's not only true that everything old can be new again but also that everything new has been celebrated since times of old.

I'll stop repeating this someday, but once again, I'd just like to note that the group on this forum is such a unique one, with hearts and minds engaged across the gardens of the planet. All of you and your diverse gardens and gardening practices make me think, and as any other teacher will confirm, thinking is good exercise.

Carol

Quoting this thread:

OP:...There is no excuse for such paucity of imagination, curiosity or diversity.

Third post....At the risk of sounding elite, rose people really are more interesting, better read, willing to explore, take risks, a more refined sense of aesthetics...

and a bit further down:
We Old Rose people are special, of course; it's in our nature to be attracted to and to pursue the unusual and the diverse.... (continues on with a discussion why those who don't have grit, follow clearly marked paths do so etc. etc.)

This post was edited by lola-lemon on Tue, Jun 11, 13 at 20:15

I think the bottom line message behind our comments, both rants and reminders of diversity, is that we choose to seek out challenge and atypical pursuits in only some aspects of our lives. We are here in the Antique Rose forum because we seek out challenge in maintaining and promoting a type of roses that most of the rest of the world doesn't appreciate. We are right to congratulate ourselves for doing so, because of such important historical and cultural significance of these roses that would be lost without rose weirdos like us. In a sense, it's the "weirdo" aspect of these roses compared to the rest of the gardening world that helps us appreciate these roses, and disparage the commonality of some arguably fine garden plants like Knockouts or Iceberg. We're here because we want to be different than the majority of "those" Knockout-nicks out there (and I do grow Knockout among my roses), although we delight in getting new folks interested in these antique roses and welcoming new members to these discussions. A hundred years ago, I suppose adventuresome rose growers were promoting those "weird" HTs and floribundas and disparaging those same old antiques that had been around for ages, and the pendulum was swinging that HT direction for many years before the Knockout phenomenon hit.

I think the folks who grow only hostas, daylilies, etc., want comfort, ease and familiarity in the garden aspects of their lives and seek out their challenges elsewhere. The beauty of those kinds of plants for many folks is precisely their lack of diversity - they look the same throughout the growing season, particularly hostas. I am always amazed to watch folks in my backyard when the roses are in full bloom, and the one section a majority of the world oohs and ahhs over is my shade bed, not the roses. It has some roses, but it's mostly a very soothing continuity of lamium and ferns and woodland natives and phlox and (gasp) heuchera and hostas. If you want your yard to always look the same, roses are likely to be disappointing flowers - hence the search for the mythical ever-blooming rose that the Knockout is supposed to be. Probably some of those unadventuresome gardeners are folks that log into extreme sport websites and bemoan the wimpiness of gardeners and other people who don't seek out physical excitement - I can hear them now, "yeah, they probably think swimming laps is exciting". As someone who loves swimming laps, and Pilates, and hiking, and of course gardening, I have to admit proudly that skydiving has no appeal whatsoever, and if anyone posts that about me on an extreme sports website they're absolutely right.

So to some extent, our gardens reflect our personalities but only one aspect of our personalities. We're all risk takers in some ways, but no one who lives past 20 is a risk taker in everything. Consistency and conformity is comfortable to all of us in at least some aspects of our lives, and if you look at yourself from the outside you'll see some place where you're just like the people around you. How many of us drive cars that are white, red, blue or grey (OK, mine's green)? Eat similar meals most days (even if organic or freshly grown)? Keep the same routine daily? Can't survive without morning coffee? Seek out other people who like the same types of books, or music, or (ahem) don't clean their houses easier, because we like being around other people like us?

So I think Suzy's rant is right on in celebrating our building a community of other folks who like what we like (antique roses) and have such fun in talking about these proudly non-conformist aspects of our lives. We get to "belong" here with other folks who think clean houses are overrated, permadirt is a natural state of hands and feet, and any rose gashes that don't require hospitalization are normal and mostly ignored. It doesn't mean that we think other people are in any way lesser beings if they don't think wrestling a full-grown free standing Quadra into a garden arch and emerging 3 hours later drenched in sweat, blood, and debris is fun. It's just that we're so glad this community is here so we can talk to other people who do.

Just my two cents
Cynthia

I think that's fine Cynthia, but why does being happy in your gardening style require disappoving of the rest of the gardeners here? CAn you not celebrate with every gardener here? I think it's an unfortunately exclusive way of building a narrowly defined community while throwing dirt on others.
What disappoints me more is how everyone worked so hard to rally behind the theme, and a tug of war of "hey, be fair be nice"--"no! this is our forum, we love this ranting!!" actually defended the ranting... and the voices of moderation were told -- Go away, it's OUR forum.

Anyway- so it is. I've been planning to bid this forum adieu for a while. I should keep myself busier anyway and tuck the computer away.

Anyway- have a great summer in the garden all.

Ta

Stick around, Lola. I like your posts. Or at least, come back in the fall. Meanwhile, have a good summer!

I wasn't going to write again, having said all I thought I could usefully say, but Nippstress brought up a couple of tangential points too intriguing for me to ignore. One is the idea that gardeners grow old roses because they're unusual. Do we? I don't: I grow them because I think they're the most beautiful roses, are easy to grow with my simple methods and do well in my conditions. Another reason not having to do with their virtues is that many are not much grown and need homes to keep them going. (I also think the Austin roses are lovely, but find them more demanding and they're very well represented in Italian gardens. If they fell out of fashion I would probably get more interested in them. Is that snobbery or a desire to preserve a vanishing beauty?) It's hard to make comparisons because people grow so few plants where I live, but I think I have in my garden just about every plant commonly grown around here, excluding those that are sheerly unsuitable. Probably there is an element in my plant selection of "Nobody else has this, how cool that I have!" But I don't think it's a dominant factor. I think I would continue to grow my Gallicas and Mosses even if they became the most banal roses in the world (which is about the day pigs will learn to fly). And I'll bet most people who post here don't choose plants on the basis of their being rare.
In so far as I perceive myself as being different from other people, I'm uncomfortable. It's not a condition I strive for. Nor do I try to be like other people just for the sake of being like them. I don't think either difference or conformity is worthwhile for its own sake. I try rather to act in certain ways because I think they're good ways in themselves. I grow the plants I grow because I like them, because they do well in my conditions, because I can fit them in the overall plan, insofar as there is a plan. My own garden aesthetic favors subtlety and variety, so I have many different kinds of plants. Okay, yes, I'm greedy as well and have collector's instincts. Possibly too something is owing to my having a didactic streak in my composition that leads me to want to have many plants in the garden to show to visitors.
Melissa
P.S. Perhaps I ought to add that I had no trouble whatever with Suzy's original rant. It was fine with me, and I hope I never wrote anything that implied that the content of her original or subsequent posts bothered me, because it didn't .

Why don't we lighten up? Suzy loves being a lightening rod, and her post was just to get a good discussion going, which it did, not to get anyone on their high horse. You were enjoying this discussion, Lola, until suddenly you weren't. Not sure what happened to change your mind.

At any rate, I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and will say I'm concerned about the lack of horticultural diversity, more so with food crops than ornamentals.

obviously, we ALL do it (get a bit snobby)because while it is generally knockouts being dissed here, over on perennials, the anti-plants are Stellas - I am feeling absolutely wretched to think I might have caused someone (Lola) to leave and would beg her to reconsider. I never meant to imply that any gardeners were to be criticised (although I think I was probably a bit dismissive of the diminishing choices available in nurseries).

It also occurred to me that any forum which is specialist (has anyone been over to fragrant plants....or tropicals) will always discuss their specialist plants (such as antique roses) in depth, whereas a generalist forum such as perennials or vegetables tends to be much wider and may appear shallower.

Again, truly sorry about this - I realise that simply stating I am having a rant does not give me a carte blanche to go off on one.

You know, everyone should plant what makes they happy. I have lots of violets and poppies because I like them. Hosta's have their place, especialy the really cool ones they have now. I just didn't want to line my path with them. They are very versatile plants though and have their use in the garden.
Your garden is for YOU, it's not for us, your mother-in-law or your neighbors.. If you are happy, if you like the plants, then enjoy them. YOUR garden is for YOUR enjoyment.

Thanks for the kind words Mellissa. It's all good.

Campanula- you didn't chase me off into the garden. It was high time I headed there more anyway. We have precious little sunny weather for flowers to bloom and the computer is here for me when they quit.
I think you are entertaining and you have given me many plants to ponder in your perennial posts and I actually will be adding angelica stricta to my garden this summer (hopefully) because of your suggestions of alternates. Don't give up blazing trails. (good luck with your C. rapunculoides foray- though- it's a trail I do not wish any one to blaze!)

In the spirit of how I think this thread truly meant to go from the start... I'll leave with this:

The Road Not Taken (Robert Frost)

TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I��"
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference. 20

It seems my two cents' worth has grown to a big mound. I agree with the above comments about a garden being for that particular gardener, and a personal interpretation, and Campanula agreed with that immediately. I have found that rants ( and I have mine believe me) can be highly interesting, can bring all sorts of thoughts and beliefs out of the closet as it were. This particular thread has opened my mind to the possibility of one day being a bit more adventuresome if and when I find the right plants for this locale, but meanwhile I continue to thoroughly enjoy gardening in my own way. I particularly enjoyed nippstress' posting, she enlarged on what I had originally posted, ie, gardening is a highly personal thing, based on many variants both in the gardener and the garden. Rant on Campanula, you were not really rude or cruel in your original rant, and I hope Lola reconsiders... meanwhile, I am now going back to the Hosta forum, where I have been made very welcome, as I looked for a name of the hosta that was here on this rocky, windswept lot when I moved in... and its surprisingly, opened up yet another interest for me. Lets all lighten up and enjoy this day...and this season.

I do think this has been a fun discussion to read, and I'm glad that folks have been so gracious in encouraging each other to stick around and continue to express opinions as just that - our individual opinions to share and learn from each other.

Melissa raised an excellent point in response to my post that I did indeed state more strongly than I intended. I also don't grow antiques or even roses because I deliberately want to be different from my neighbors in some sort of anti- "keeping up with the Jones" attitude. I am at heart a lazy gardener, which is one reason I refuse to spray, since that makes something fun into unpleasant work in my world. I like old garden rose forms but something that suckers like Gallicas sounds like too much work in a contained space so I look elsewhere. I also like modern rose forms and bright colors and stripes so I grow those too and don't bother to segregate the types except by vague color relationships and zone pocket requirements. Still, there's something special about roses that appeals to my own quest for knowledge and community and history and even individualism, with each rose having its own personality and story, both in my yard and in the rest of the world, that isn't equaled by other types of garden plants.

Let me slip in an analogy for where I see some of the challenge and appeal of roses beyond just their beauty, since any number of garden plants are intrinsically beautiful. When I became engaged to my husband, he asked me what kind of wedding ring I'd like. Well, my first considerations were practical (as they are in my garden), and being a klutz, with all the ways I use my hands I didn't want to have gashes in my clothes (and skin) from a solitaire like a majority of rings out there. I also look wretched in gold jewelry, so I wanted white gold, and I like the intricacy of filigree jewelry just because it's pretty. We discovered that by these three practical and aesthetic considerations, we were already beyond 99% of the rings that we could find for sale not because I wanted deliberately to be different, but because what I liked wasn't what apparently most other folks liked. After searching all over two towns, we checked the teeny jewelry store next to my husband's store and wearily said the words that made most store owners shake their heads blankly, "white gold filigree". What a joy to watch the owner pull out a huge tray of estate sale rings in nothing but white gold filigree and tell us the stories behind them. Not just because I liked this style aesthetically, but there's something richer and more powerful about having a ring from the 1920's with an intriguing history behind it. I am very grateful to that jewelry store owner for maintaining and sharing those "weirdo" rings, since I didn't even know what I wanted would be hard to find until long after they were popular (just like my gratitude to folks who maintain hard-to-find roses). It adds something indefinable to the personal sentiment that I would treasure anyway in any wedding ring my husband would have chosen, to imagine who else has loved this ring and been loved through the gift of it.

So that individualism and history and sense of community is part of what appeals to me about roses, beyond the fact that I think they're beautiful and surprisingly manageable plants to care for. I love that roses have families on many levels - that I can look at a Kordes rose and see aspects that differ from a Meilland rose, that children and grandchildren of roses like "Peace" or "Souvenir de la Malmaison" share important characteristics, or that rose breeders like Rupert or Barden can be people we actually know (at least virtually on this forum).

And one more thing - the same can be said of daylilies, since they are every bit as diverse with a long history of some varieties, and I have probably 40 named varieties in my yard. For me, the difference is the challenge associated with them, hence my earlier response to Suzy's initial comments. I just don't find daylilies that challenging to grow, so they don't develop as much personality or uniqueness for me as the roses do in my yard. That sentiment and this whole post starts getting off on another tangent, and since this thread is getting long I'll start a new one on the idea of what appeals to us about roses. Still, I wanted to respond to Melissa's very thoughtful comments and respect the very welcome challenge of this discussion topic. Have a good time out in the garden Lola, and BlackGavotte, and welcome back whenever you want to chime in here.

Cynthia