Interesting. I also have MP from Vintage and ARE. They have plenty of buds but not yet opened.

Do you have Marie Daly? Marie Daly is a sport from MP so I wonder how that compares to Vintage MP and others. Maybe we're dealing with multiple sports of MP across the nation? MP was introduced in 1888 (!?!) so I can imagine that some sports or slightly variation of MP was grown by accident and got around over many years. At least that's my theory...

As 'Marie Pavie' is a shrub that can be mistaken for numerous other similar shrubs, and vice versa, I suspect there are several roses in commerce under that name that are misidentified.

Paul

Hi Lou.....I do have a Marie Daly, again from Chamblee's. It was a larger plant that was planted directly in the ground and has already had some blooms. It currently has a few more buds and I'll compare it to the Vintage MP when it (MD) blooms again.

I've got to figure out how to post pictures - that would be much more interesting than just saying that they are different.

Honestly, if you didn't know that there may be a plant with a "better" flower - whatever that means - you would probably be perfectly happy with the one (from other nurseries) that Vintage describes as "blowsy".......ignorance is bliss sometimes! I don't think there is supposed to be any difference in the plant's performance, just the flower. (with that said, if I order more, I'll go back to Vintage - ha!)

Lynn

Lynn,

You can use photobucket (free) and use it to load pictures directly in this message. I think it was Randy who enabled me to order MP from Vintage after reading about how it looked different from other MP. Lol.

Lou

I've had one bloom open up on my 'Marie Pavie' from Vintage.
Yes, I agree with you Lynn, it does look different than the blooms on my 'Marie Pavie' that was purchased in Texas.
Time will tell, because the bloom was the very first bloom on a small band-size rose, but my first impression is that the blooms are different.

There are many more buds getting ready to open on the Vintage MP, so I'll have a better comparison later. I probably shouldn't be making any comparison yet, because my Vintage PM bloom was on its second day of being open and had been rained on the previous day. But that may even help the comparison, because notice how the Vintage MP's petals are still cupping "upward" even after the rain. And that little bloom lasted 3 days, something unheard of for my local MP. The Vintage bloom was also a lot smaller than the Texas MP ... but that could be because of it being a new, small band rose.

FYI, the scent was the same, which is to say it is very, very pleasant.

Both plants are nice plants and both are worthy to be grown for the fragrance alone.

Randy

California 'Marie Pavie' (AFTER being rained on for a full day):
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Texas 'Marie Pavie' (freshly opened blooms):
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I tried both MPs, one from Chamblee and one from Vintage. My point was not to find fuller flower, but to check for differences in BS resistance, if there is a apossibility of them being different roses, as Paul mentioned. I heard so many comments from the South about BS resistance of MP. My experience with first MP was disaster in this respect, but I loved fragrance so much that I decided to try another source. I can't compare flower form, because I removed first MP by the time I got the second one. I can only say that flower power, fragrance and vigor were equal between these two roses and both required spraying here to keep their leaves.
I did the same experiment with 2 Blush Noisettes about the same time and overall these two varieties are very similar. I always wonder can these two roses MP and BN be just two versions of the same rose?

Olga

Olga, like you, I wasn't looking for a "fuller flower" either when I ordered the Vintage 'Marie Pavie'.
I wanted to find out for myself if the Vintage "version" has a little more petal substance ... more like what I see on my 'Marie Daly' (a fantastic rose in my garden).
So far, it looks promising.
Thanks for reporting on the blackspot comparison ... that's interesting.
Thankfully, we have a lot less pressure in that area than you do in your area.
I've never tried Blush Noisette, but it grows in the school district's garden here, unsprayed, and it always looks very healthy when I visit there, and is a lot larger than the Marie Pavie that grows in the same garden. At least three times larger, or more. Both are mature plants.

Randy

This is my Marie Pavie, from The Antique Rose Emporium. This is the only one I have, so I didn't know there was another version....but I like this little bloom machine!
She's not crazy about my zone 4 winters but always comes back and is easy maintenance here.

Celeste

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close-up of blooms

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I just noticed that my Texas MP just bloomed for the first time so I took a sniff. It smells nice! My backyard would smell so gooooood when MPs and abelias are blooming sometime soon. If anyone didn't know, plant enough abelias and you get very nice wafting fragrance from them during April or May!

I ordered 3 Marie Daly from RU, and the plants in their 2nd year look exactly like the Texas Marie Pavie I have at home. I've asked RU to compare their two stock plants. I expected a somewhat pinker rose when I ordered MD. In the middle of the bed with the Marie Daly/Pavie plants there is a plant of Blush Noisette--- a larger plant with quite a different habit, not a bushy and with longer, arching canes. I have another plant of Blush Noisette which is different & have to check my records. I seem to have two versions of Blush NOisette! Love them both.

Celeste, your Antique Rose Emporium 'Marie Pavie' is very beautiful.

Lou, that's one of the reasons I like Marie Daly & Marie Pavie in my backyard ... the wafting scent. I didn't know about the scent from abelias.

Barbara, lucky you to have all those Marie's & Blush Noisettes!

Randy

Randy,

I recommend 'Rose Creek' abelia. It has one of better form and doesn't get too big. 'Kaleidoscope' is pretty interesting. The color of leaves would change throughout the year hence the name...

My Blush Noisette grows under a red oak. I have several Marie Pavies and Marie Dalys and they both grow well.

'Rose Creek' abelia ... I will look for it. Thanks!

Randy

Ok, so I have (hopefully) mastered the science of posting pictures and (hopefully) the following are my picture comparisons of the two versions of Marie Pavie.

The first two are the Chamblee MP's:

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Another Chamblee's picture:

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The following are shots of the flowers of the Vintage version:

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Another Vintage:

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And another Vintage:

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The Vintage flowers are just a bit fuller and rounder, to my eye at least. I do love Celestialrose's pictures of her plant - the flowers are very cute!

Lou - I discovered Abelia a year or two ago and I can vouch for it's wonderfulness! I have Edward Goucher (beautiful dark green with pink flowers but a large plant), Silver Anniversary (smaller shrub) and Kaleidescope (can never remember how to spell that). I almost ordered the Rose Canyon this year........

Rock Creek not Canyon......

"Rock Creek" is the name of a neighborhood down the road!

The Vintage 'Marie Pavie looks correct to me, but the Chamblee's 'Marie Pavie has foliage that is too glossy and so I suspect its not 'Marie Pavie but a misidentified Noisette.

Paul, that would be great if the ARE Marie Pavie is a misidentified Noisette. I have lost 3 noisettes in my black walnut garden and have given up on them. But, my MP from ARE is a virtual bloom machine (gets BS late in the season). Do you have any idea which noisette?

Barbara

This discussion has me a bit confused.....mostly about the question can certain versions of MP be Noisettes. As I am in zone 4 and my winter lows dip down to minus -30 degrees below zero and I do not winter-protect my Marie Pavie at all--- how could mine be a Noisette and survive year after year?
(I posted pictures of mine, above). I can barely get hybrid teas through each winter WITH protection and even then, they start off each spring with about 2 inches of live cane. My MP has some winter damage, but has plenty of live cane after the winter. (As I mentioned, my Marie Pavie came from The Antique Rose Emporium and was listed as a polyantha.) Now I am wondering who 'she' really is?
I always thought Noisettes were tender and could not survive in the cold zones.

Celeste

My Marie Pavies came from Chamblee's (and look like the photos above from Chamblee's)--they do have fewer, softer, looser petals compared to the Vintage/ARE photos, though I would hesitate to describe the foliage as glossy--they came through their first zone 5 winter just fine with no protection (in fact, they have started fully leafing out at the base ahead of all of my other roses except my rugosa), so I don't think Chamblee's is mistakenly selling noisettes, unless it's an unusually hardy noisette.

Lynn, I am really pumped after seeing your photos of your Vintage Marie Pavie. It looks fantastic!

Your Chamblees Marie Pavie looks good too, but I already have a Marie Pavie that looks exactly like that. So, it makes me think my idea to order the Vintage version did in fact give me two different Marie Pavies ... both of which are great, but different.

Randy

Wow. Very interesting. can't wait...