ah well... maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that roses get as big in Charleston as they do in California, maybe that's where you're reading some of the sizes from on this forum? I used to live in Charleston (HI!) Charleston does have a bit of a winter, you get more rain there, and it's a -lot- more humid. I'm not sure exactly how that will affect you compared to a CA garden. Also, it matters how much sun they're getting... a rose will be smaller with less sun.

But I do think that a lot of catalogues list roses as "front of border" roses when they really aren't. Sure, some place where it gets really cold, maybe they stay really small, but... not any place that's pretty warm.
But what rose are you talking about as a border rose?

I hope someone who lives in South Carolina -right now- can answer this post and give you more details on sizes.

Maybe you should list your 16 roses, the approximate placement/use for that rose,... and people can tell you what they think?

Some roses will take fine to being pruned heavily, and some will not. People often say that tea roses for example, don't take kindly to being pruned a lot (but then some people prune them and they are fine....)

Hi Amiee, the sizes I have seen were from folks in the south east with humid hot summers as I do. Can't remember all the ones I had seen now as I have looked at so many threads and pictures. All my roses are in full sun with the exception of a few which still get 6 or more hours of direct sun. I have roses along a back privacy fence, along a 3 rail post fence, in a island bed, and just planted an Alister Stella Gray in front of a chicken run to climb along the top of it (was going to get two but read a post that said there's was trying to eat the house). The roses I have are as listed:
The first ones are along the post and rail fence with perenials mixed in...
Clb. Pinkie (already quite large in the corner of my fence), Blush Noisette, Lamarque (climbing over the post and rail fence), Hermosa, Dutcher, Mrs. B R Cant (at the other end of the post/rail fence)
Next are roses I have in a large raised bed next to a swing arbor mixed also with perenials, they are...
2 Belinda shrub roses (pretty large already, one in the bed and the other alone other the other side of the swing arbor), Buff Beauty (training to climb the modest swing arbor), Charlestonian ( smack in front/center wrapped around a 6'post and already swamping it in one year), Cornelia (in the center of the bed), and Mrs.D Cross (in the front), and a pink tea or china that I can't remember what it was (towards the back).
The back privacy fence... another Mrs. D Cross (she hasn't been doing good, never has), Sombreul (sp?) (trained on wires fanned out on the fence), Dutches de Brabant, MAC (trying to get it to climb a med. tree to the west of it), and I bought Le Vesuve to go between Sombriuel and MAC and probably going to shovel prune the Mrs D Cross that has been their 2 years and does nothing. I also just bought Belinda hyb musk to be planted along same fence but on the shaded side of the tree as it gets sun to filtered sun.

I don't know if that helps any. I have Spice, Fellemberg and Maggie on my list, just bought Natchitoches Noisette not sure exactly where I want to put them. Also looking at maybe a Rugosa or two for the privacy fence but read those can get monsterous so not sure. I still have a huge section of the privacy fence that I would like to line with roses. However there is a slightly sunken runoff area that runs along the entire fence line so basically I have about 4' between the fence and the runoff area. Is that enough room? I mean for roses like Maggie and Spice and Belinda (musk) and roses of that size? I don't have to plant other flowers there the fence can just be the roses.

I mean how much space would you put between roses in my area? We do have some cold winters but very little to no snow and usually the winters are fairly mild lows in the 20's for the most part in the coldest months with some teens. Last two winters have been the coldest in years. We have very hot and humid summer months, beautiful spring weather and cooler fall temps starting in Nov. usually. The upstate gets a lot more snow then we ever see and I don't don't how much that would change things from there to here even though it is in the same state. I wish someone on here lived closer to my area but alas I think I am alone except for Carol I think there in the upstate. I might have some pictures if that helps. I do know one thing the border along the post and rail fence will eventually have to be made wider. I have heavy clay and it was a long stretch of fence and back breaking work to amend and work the soil there and thought 4' would be big enough for both roses and my other flowers. Somehow I will have to widen it as I work around the rest of the fence which goes around the entire side yard. For now it works so it will just have to do.~Meghan

There are two places you might want to visit: The garden at Riverbanks Zoo and Botanical Garden in Colombia. The roses there are well established and you can see what the 'bones' look like on some of the noisettes as well as why La Mortola is such a wonderful huge rose.

The other place that can be interesting is the garden that Ruth Knopf installed at Boone Hall. It's been there for long enough that you could see which roses seem to need a bit more work to keep within bounds.

My garden is much colder than yours or Carol's. I'm just over the Smoky Mountains and I have winter. I've been surprised that winter hasn't set my roses back, but drought in summers does.

Meghan - I live in No Cal, and so cannot give you specific info on how big your roses will get (in my garden, most old roses get 2 to 4 times bigger than it says in books and on HMF and in the catalogues!). I love it in my garden when the roses get huge-normous, and eat trees, and try to eat our 3 story house, but I can certainly understand that someone who is trying to plan out a garden would be frustrated to realize that the information they thought they had is worthless.

My advice is to get info from folks who grow old roses in your same climate/area. I have found out for my self over the years that roses are incredibly variable depending on the LOCAL conditions. Just other areas that are in the same climate zone and have the same humidity is not as good, because they will have different soil conditions, etc. There is an organization called Heritage Roses Group which has local chapters in many areas all over the country. I would start there. I would also start another post here in GW with a title something like "Need help re old roses in South Carolina", and I would just post a list of the roses, and state that you are looking for the ultimate sizes. Good luck -

Jackie

Thanks for the advice I will look into the Heritage Rose Group. I have looked locally even the local plantations (they ones by me only have hybrid teas, not even any noisettes, been awhile since last visited Boone Hall though) and have found nothing to help me so far but will keep looking.

If roses can be so vairable even from one hot humid state to another (south east or gulf states) than where do they come up with those sizes when I see folks like I said with similar conditions with roses much larger then the sizes they list? Even Ashdown and that's the state I live in? Are those the "average" size or the size they are best kept at with pruning?? I know cold will effect the growth (which I would tend to think would slow the growth not speed it up)and colder southern states seem to be able to grow some pretty hefty size roses of the same class I do. That is what scared me so much about the roses I have already and what they will grow to in a few more years. I do remember seeing a Maggie at the zoo (again winter time) but it was severly pruned down to a few thick canes so I couldn't tell how big it was or will get. Maybe the thick canes should tell me something. I have been meaning to get back up there and check out the rose garden for a long while now so maybe this is my excuse to go up there and do so. At least like you said it will give me some idea at least. I tried to look at there web page but they really don't list but a few roses they have so it wasn't much help.
I just don't want to end up with roses that are too close together and need to end up being moved after they've gotten so big and then have that headache! At least the ones on the post/rail fence can grow through the fence however that part of the fence goes up the driveway so I would hate for it to scrape the cars going up it, that wouldn't be good! lol I wouldn't mind too much about the roses turning my side yard into a sort of secret garden if they get so big that I can't see the road or rest of the neighborhood! Just as long as I make the rest of my border beds wide enough to incooperate the rest of my beautiful flowers I love so much! Still need to know how much to space them apart though..perhaps. :O)

I think a lot depends not only on eventual size estimates in specific climate, but also on how vigorous rose is. Some roses an be estimated to be a few meters high, but as they reach that height mostly step by step by side branching (aka laterals), you can prune them to be much smaller. Now with those that shoot 5 meter canes each year "to keep them smaller" thing is not going to work, as they will laugh at you when eating your house 3 weeks after pruning.

I grow Blush Noisette (or rather keep a puny bush, as grow part is not happening so far), Buff Beauty (which should work as a small climber in your climate I think, as here she almost never gets that big, also when looking her up I came across quite some pics of her used like that in hot climates), Cornelia (gets more wide than tall, pretty wide even here though).

I also have Sombreuil and MAC. Now I don't know if Sombreuil will really work on a fence, as mine shot 3 meter long canes the first year it got planted. If anything, that usually is a first sign that something might get rather big. MAC is biggie too, the only thing with her though that she seems to like way more water than other roses normally like. Mine is happiest when we get rainy weather and she gets soaked, otherwise she is inclined to mildew.

I would say do your research well before buying rugosas, if even, as I have heard from different people in warm climates that rugosas are rather difficult to grow for them, mostly because they tend to get chlorotic and what not else.

Meghan, I'm kind of in your boat, and you're not alone in having to widen beds - or even to move roses. My roses are about the age of yours, and I don't have much real estate (but 96 roses). You may have read posts by Dr Malcolm Manners. He grows roses in Lakeland, FL and always does a hard pruning (even teas) in Feb/Mar just to keep them reasonably sized. Here many people also prune (not hard) in August, just because the bushes have gotten so big and still have quite a bit of time to grow in the season. Last September Mrs B R Cant was really getting rangy with 8' canes going in all directions but not much foliage because she's in too much shade. I half figured I might as well take her out, but I decided just to cut her way back. She wound up being bare canes about 4.5 wide x 5.5 tall. I truly wondered if I hadn't done her in, but in less than a month she was leafing out, and she has bloomed.

I believe ARE's sizes are "optimal" not natural, meaning that's where they're "happiest" but they have to be trimmed to be kept that size. I had Spice, and she did not mind being hacked/pruned in February at all - just kept right on going. I do not know how to trim/prune Hybrid Musks. I have Cornelia and haven't had to do any cutting on her. I tied her to a trellis against the house and let her fountain up and out, but she's filling the path so I'm going to have to do something else. Since they tend to fountain even as a bush, I think you'll have to make space available or put them on a teepee or pillar if that's possible since they can also be trained that way. I had Prosperity on a teepee, and it was still pretty wide after wrapping and adding side shoots, etc.

I've seen a photo of Blush Noisette climbing. Mine isn't that tall yet - only about 5'. So BN should go on your fence OK if need be. As far as spacing climbers, I had Reve d'Or and Cl White Maman Cochet probably 12' - 15' apart on wires against a stockade fence. It became obvious after a couple of years that not only were they going to blend but also try to engulf everything around them. It became too much for me so I gave away Cl WMC. Reve d'Or doesn't seem to be quite as vigorous, but still a handful. Lamarque hasn't decided to become a climber yet after almost 2 years so don't know about him.

I planted my bushes 6' on center which may not be enough here. You might get away with 6' OC since your growing season is shorter than mine, but you should probably find out how the locals prune their OGRs. Pruning (and maybe trimming again in August, assuming that's not too late to force new growth that will be damaged by your winter temps) may keep them fitting in their spaces for your season.

How much space did you allow between your bushes and climbers? You may be alright so don't panic, but I know exactly the fear that is gripping you. When roses start growing as roses do, it can be very unnerving, like an avalanche is after you and you have nowhere to go. If some of your roses have to be moved, that's an easy fix (sort of) or they can be given away.

Your 4' border could possibly be widened a bit (but not real deep, just composted good), but I have my climbers and a few bushes in that size border against a fence, knowing they'll overhang the edge. If your clay is too tough for the roots to penetrate, they may be self-limiting the bush size. I'm not sure.

Get in touch with your local society and someone who grows OGRs. They'll help you.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Natchitoches Noisette placement is currently on my mind, too :) That one is listed as 3 to 15 feet, I think! If anyone has more detail on how she grows, I'd love that.

I don't grow many teas yet, so I do tend to just prune things to keep them in bounds. I cut out some old wood, hack off the top... I usually leave a mixture of old and new wood on most things. I'm not very studious about who gets exactly what kind of specific pruning, if you see what I mean ;) I give them long enough in-ground to know who might grow quite slowly, etc.

The house-eaters are a problem, though. Roses that try to outgrow their space by midseason are no fun. You do have to ID the monster growers.

Now I'm scared my Sombreuil (Colonial White) will get terribly vigorous. Mine seems to be behaving; mine isn't very vigorous at all. He's in a rough spot, so that's probably the answer for my garden.

Every year, when we hold a pruning clinic at the Stagecoach Inn Heritage Rose Garden (Thousand Oaks area, SoCal) I point out to folks that this garden was laid out in 1994 by a foolish gardener who did not realize how large the Tea and China Roses there would become.

I can say that, because I AM that foolish gardener.

Nevertheless, the now-mature garden, even if some over-crowded, has a wonderful look through the year.

They prune those Teas harder than I would -- We talk about that every year --but the roses are quite mature, and it all works.

I second Ann's suggestion that you visit the two mature gardens closest to you.

There is, unfortunately, no Local Heritage Roses Group in your area. (Wanna start one? I wish someone would.) But there is one in Florida, and another in Northern Virginia, and I can put you in touch with the Conveners of both groups.

Jeri Jennings, Coastal Southern CA
Heritage Roses Group

Sherry thank you so much you are awsome and your blog is a delight! How on earth did you find the time to plant 96 roses in such a short amount of time?! That is a lot of sweat!

I have spaced most of the ones along the fences I think at least 6 ft a couple maybe shorter but not much and a couple maybe more but not much. The ones in the bed is a whole different story. Those are perhaps more like 4 ft. I did a lasgana bed there to save my back and at the end of that bed is a pink crepe myrtle shrub that I had meant to dig out but decided it was too much work so left it. So then I had to squeeze the roses in I had got for that space. I think I may need to do some moving there but I hate to do it as I love the combinations I put in there. That bed is going on its 2nd year so we will see how it goes this next year but if the growth they put on in there first year is anything of what is too come I am in really big trouble!! I do hope that 4ft from the fence line will be enough for the back privacy fence as I can't expand those beds. I do hope it will be enough even if they spill out some, I don't need to mix perennials with those it can just be about the roses so that's fine. I just don't want to squish them up against the fence if they do get to be monsters. As for the side yard and the post and rail fence around it I will hope for the best with those roses and try to think about really making the rest of the beds wider in case the roses do get huge even with pruning so I can have my cottage type flowers mixed in.

Of the roses I have had the longest, which are going on their 5th year are Lamarque (my very very favorite, what health, what scent and flowers, what growth and grace! I do hope she finally takes off for you as she has for me! She looks pretty mature already), Blush Noisette (love the scent that carries through the garden, mine is grown as a shrub and is a little smaller than yours perhaps), Mrs B R Cant (slow to take off at first almost sp her but so glad I didn't, has really taken off and this one I did read about on here that she gets big so I gave her the end of the fence), Sombreuil (this rose has really gotten crazy! I do not know how to tame her, I think add more wire! Throws out huge canes and long laterals like an octopus!)

I will probably have to end up moving some in the island bed though I hate to do it. For the back privacy fence I can only hope that 4 ft wide is enough as I can't expand. I'll just space them out then more to give them more room that way and hope they don't get smushed up against the fence! As for the perimeter of the side yard along the post and rail fence that still has tons of space left to plant. Still not sure what to do so I guess I will take that one rose at a time and try to make my future beds deep enough to handle the roses and all the flowers to go with them. I just panic when I see and hear how huge they can get. Thanks for the help. I think I want to put Natchitoches Noisette on the side of a very large shed so hopefully it won't eat the side so it covers the window!

Jeri, thanks for letting me know! As for me starting one um I don't know about that but I will look into it. I am so surprised that in my area there isn't one! In my area with so many wonderful old roses that can grow here and so beautifully too! I have talked to local nurseries about getting some antique roses and believe it or not one of them actually listened to me and got a few though.

I don't really blame the gardener as not being imformed as all the info you find other than a forum such as this one tells you a certain size only then to find someone actually growing them and see that they can indeed get much larger then they are listed as. At least that's how I see it. Thankful for forums!

Well, Mom -- If you decide to explore convening a HRGroup, you contact me.
I've done it, so I know how easy it is.

Jeri

I was thinking about part of what you said, that you wanted to see "other flowers too", have you considered planting clematis with your climbing roses along your fence? that'll give you some more variety, too. Certain planting types of clematis are recommended over others (you can google it to find out)

You can DEFINITELY find some noisettes in Charleston proper (try the downtown old houses) You might look into the book: "Noisette Roses: 19th Century Charleston�s Gift to the World"
Here's a thread on it and where to buy it: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/rosesant/msg0221393915401.html

At least if you have to remove a few of your roses, at this point, you've had several years to evaluate them and you can eliminate ones that haven't performed as well for you or ones you just dont like as much.

Also, you might want to look at photos of the the San Jose Heritage Rose garden. Some of their noisettes and other roses have been pruned pretty hard to allow them to fit in the space, and they're not dead. http://www.heritageroses.us/

I second what Buford says. Ultimately it's your garden and you decide what size you want the roses to be. While you can't keep a large tea rose under 2' you can certainly keep it in the 4'-5' range with little problem.

I have a Souv du un Ami that I let get to about 8' by 6'. Too big for the spot and I now keep it around 5' x 3'. Ditto for a Kathleen Haarop. When I never touched her she got to be 8' by 10'. I know keep her around 6' x 4'.

I do this by trimming them all season just like I would any other plant. IMO we need to get away from the concept of "pruning time" being the only time we really trim our roses. While that is a good time to do the hardest trimming, there is nothing wrong with trimming the bushes all season to keep them in bounds. After each bloom flush is a great opportunity.

If you want to let your teas grow huge then space accordingly. If you want them in tighter then keep them trimmed.

A quick thought on how some of us list sizes on websites etc. We try to do an average for the country as best we can and taking into account some trimming. And get it wrong more times than we'd like to admit! :-)

But as others have pointed out the hands down best source are other gardeners, gardens and nurseries in your area.

Paul

I have a theory that the "sizes" of roses you find in lots of rose books/catalogues, and even on HMF, originally came from ENGLAND! That is where there are/were so many wonderful nurseries, experts in roses, books on roses (written in English) etc. My theory is that somehow a database has emerged that everyone now uses, and it works fine if you live in England!

They have much different weather there - even cool summers. I have seen posters here on GW who live in the UK say that whatever rose they are talking about really DOES only grow to the shorter stated size where they garden. Sometimes some of the rose experts/hybridizers in the UK seem to be annoyed to be told that their roses grow to amazing sizes in other climates.

So, that's why now I don't believe anything except very local knowledge from others, or my own eyes.

There are roses, of course, that stay small even in warm climates - some of the polyanthas, for example. I have a bush of Little White Pet that has been growing in my garden for 18 years. It has stayed 18-24 inches tall and about as wide for all of that time. It blooms all of the time with tiny very double white blooms. It would be fantastic "at the front of the border".

Sometimes trial and error is the only way to determine what roses are going to do in YOUR garden.

Jackie

I have a theory that the "sizes" of roses you find in lots of rose books/catalogues, and even on HMF, originally came from ENGLAND!

That is not entirely true for HMF at least, as most what they list are averages or variation keeping in mind climate and trimming (like 3-6 meters is quite a big margin of error really). I think HMF more or less gives the estimates, considering the default climate for the given rose. For example for me tea and china rose estimates on HMF are useless, as here they will be 4x smaller simply because my climate is not their default climate. DAs for example get way bigger in warm countries and way smaller in cold climates, same for most climbers, in the North they even never really reach the climbing height and often die back with the snowline staying as a large shrub.

I don't think anyone can really give an exact estimate how one or the other plant will do in specific garden exactly. Besides the soil and climate, there also are human factors, one pampers and plants things one way, another the other way around. But estimates generally are that, just estimates, to give the general clue what is likely to happen. Sometimes plants get too big or stay too small, if it is annoying, you either replant, either shovel prune.

What helps though, is to compare the estimates on different sites, within same climate range. Does not work with very rare roses, but otherwise it can give general idea what to expect. For example most English sites list teas and chinas as growing to 50-90 cm tall - and that is rather correct estimate for me, since the climate is rather similar. If a few sites list the rose that way, I know that in my climate it won't grow to 3 meters.

Paul, thanks for explaining it! I was afraid of cuttting a rose too much to keep it to a certain size because I've read they don't like being pruned too much (old garden roses that is). Like I said I do like to plan and was using the sizes that were listed or at least going off by them for the most part. Then seeing roses grow to monster sizes made me nervous that I would be fighting back a jungle in a few years. I have spent a lot of time on your new site and watching your videos,very helpful and thanks for the library of roses..was on there for hours! lol It helps to know that I can prune away and not worry about making the roses unhappy if I need too. ~Meghan

I hope it's okay if jump into this thread. I lived and gardened in San Antonio, Texas, which I suspect has a similar but hotter/milder climate than Charleston. At one time I had 20-30 OGRs in my yard and regularly visited the ARE display garden in town.

There were several Mrs. Dudley Cross roses in my neighborhood. All of them topped out at around 4'-5', looked healthy and bloomed beautifully. (I always wanted to add her to my yard but somehow never got around to it.)

I had Duchesse de Brabant, however, and she was (and remains, so the renter tells me) a monster. Over 6-7 years she grew/spread to be at least 8' x 8' (and maybe a bit wider) and was a thorny terror to prune. I had to get one of those pole-pruner chainsaws to tackle her and always ended up a gashed mess afterwards. Possibly she'd have been a bit more mannerly if I hadn't let her get out of hand early on.

Mrs. B.R. Cant wasn't quite as bad, but she was in an area with some shade, so her growth was a bit less dense. One of my friends had her, however, and she can easily be a 6' to 8' rose (all the way around) if allowed to be.

I don't remember seeing it on your list, but a Tea rose that was lovely and behaved very courteously for me was Mme. Antoine Mari.

All these roses were from ARE, btw.

Hope that info helps. I certainly understand you being a bit at sea over what sizes the roses will be. My worst mistake (aside from situating Duchesse du Brabant on the driveway strip) was certainly planting a Climbing Old Blush along a 4' high chain link fence and expecting it to support her. D:

M~

I live in Greenville not far from Carol. I have a few you have. Now, I do NOT water my roses nearly as much as some of the folks here, maybe that would make a difference, but probaby not since age seems to be key.

Duchesse de Brabant: Mine is at least 7-9 years old and max size is 5 x 5 (if that) I have never had to prune her other than dead wood. She is amazing...what is more amazing is that someone on this post reported her to be a monster....Mine came from Rosesunlimited so maybe I have a smaller version? If mine were 8x8 I couldnt use the driveway!! She is in full sun and blooms alllll summer for me so I know she is happy.

Fellemberg: Mine is at least 6 years old and still 4x4. Not in the best soil, I suppose others may say he gets much bigger. I think I have seen him trained on a pillar which ended up being a 7' tall x about 4' specimin. Mine is just left to bush form and is pretty that way. Mostly only rain water for him.

Blush Noisette (keep in mind that Charleston is the life blood for a Noisette so YMMV!!) Mine is again, not in the best soil, only gets rainwater (except in drought) and mine is probably 6' tall by 8' wide. I do trim this Noisette back each spring because I find she blooms more if I do (everyone likes a good haircut, right?). This rose did not have much fragrance the first 3 years, in year 4 she began perfuming the yard every day....even from 15' away. I would never be without this rose.

Mrs. Dudley Cross: Mine is in soil that is ammended but the clay around it is dreadful. She has stayed compact at 5 years old around 4x4. Last year she put on stellar growth so this year she may take off...we will see. I expect this rose to get much bigger. She is teaching me patience.

Cl. Pinkie: Mine grows against a fence. I never touch her. I let her weep over on top of old canes which eventually die but never disease. She is a biggun' at 9' x 12' and maybe a bit more. LOVE this rose. My sons go under her weeping (nearly thornless) branches and have a forte underneath. Its just like a tent to them and since I dont spray...I let them enjoy their hideout. :o)

I have been working on a graduate degree for the last....well FOREVER...but that ends this spring!! I am glad to have the time to be back in the garden and with my roses. You can contact me anytime if you have a question about SC roses. I know we get colder than you but I may be able to at least talk about roses with some age on them and BS. I don't spray my garden with chemicals so I can give you an idea of what will survive without chemical intervention (at least Upstate style)

Ronda

Rhonda and Chan- thank you for letting me know how big your roses have grown. IT is nice to know how the same roses I grow have done and how big and how old they are in similar climates. I am over much of my scare now though still a tad frustrated to not have more accurate size description for my area I guess but that is what I have you all for! There are a few I have going into there 5th year and already are quite large so I think unless they stop growing soon they will become biggies! Last year I had the worst time with thripes, and sucking bugs like leaf hoppers! They did so much damage and every bit of new grow on most of my roses were sucked to death till they shriveled to nothing, hardly a blossom all summer! I tried every none chemical I could find with no luck and had to go with seven spray every 4 weeks to the bugs and eventually I got them done to a reasonable level! I really hope I don't have a repeat year with that! Thanks again for keeping me sane! I think for the majority of my established roses that I had left enough room and should be good. Will probably have to move a couple out of the new second year bed as I am certain some are too close now.
Here are a few bad shots (they are washed out and I need to learn how to use my camera that I've had for years)of some of the roses I grow.
{{gwi:221133}}
Cl.Pinkie
{{gwi:221134}}
Really washed out pic of Blush Noisette
{{gwi:221135}}
Belinda's Dream
{{gwi:221136}}
~Meghan

Hi Meghan, listen to what Paul said, you can let them get as big as you like (the Teas) or you can keep them trimmed back. No, you can't cut them back to 18 inches, they aren't hybrid teas, but you can easily keep them at 4-5 feet. Mine stay at around 6 feet or so, depends on how much space I have for them. I like them to mingle a bit so I only cut them off of each other if one of them is being too much of a land grabber. They will get huge in our climate if they have the space, but they don't have to be. As long as you don't hack them down like HT's they remain lovely and do well. Some of the bigger noisettes like Reve d'Or will take down an obelisk, ask me how I know :-). Grow them on something sturdy and go vertical. It will be okay, I remember when my Teas started maturing, it scared me to death too, I planted them all in the wrong places based on what information was published about size and they were all bigger, wider, you name it. I spent a lot of time with a shovel moving roses and I have removed some roses over time just to give my favorites more room to spread out. It's a process and plants respond differently in different gardens. Aren't they amazing and wonderful things these old roses?? Doesn't look so bad if they are crowded eh?
{{gwi:220830}}

Carol

Not at all Carol!! Your garden is just lovely! I have lots of room right now..tons more roses to purchase in the future! I do want mine to sort of blend together to some point as long as I still have room for all those old favorite cottage perenninals of mine I love so much. I also hate the idea of digging them up and moving them after a few years. That is why I try so hard to plan and read as much info as I can before I give it a home. I am a major planner! lol The large stretch of privacy fence along the back of the house will eventually be all roses so far I only have 4 planted along there but I have 5 on there way that will also go along that fence and those I do want to get nice and big (as long as they can stand being being in a 4 ft wide bed as I can't make that any biiger due to a run off) other than that they can blend together. I am making sure I give those enough space between them though so I don't have to prune too much. Thanks for the beautiful picture of your yard! ~Meghan

M~

Isn't Carol's garden a dream?!

One thing I have learned over time: Gardening is like cooking...it is not really an exact science. What I mean is: As time has gone on, I figured out I don't have to use measuring spoons when cooking and nothing in the garden has to stay in the original spot. ;o)

About the bugs: Do you have Eastern Bluebirds at the coast?

You could try what I am about to suggest but NOT if you plan to use chemicals if it doesnt work. This would be a whole summer experiment.

I have a Bluebird house that is on my privacy fence. Morning sun and afternoon shade will draw the BBs to it. Each year I have a BB family that takes up the house. They usually raise 2 broods in spring and early summer. This amounts to a lot of bug eaters flying through my garden. BBs won't eat Jap. Beetles but other than that I never, ever have any other bugs other than a few mosquitoes.

The BBs clean my yard first and then move yard to yard through my neighborhood. I know that its the BBs that make my bug population low because last year some chickadees won the fight for the house. I once again had grasshoppers and crickets in my roses and perennials (not happy about that).

You might consider one or two houses depending on your lot size, but again, you cannot spray for bugs as this might kill your BBs or make their eggs fragile. If you plan to try it, also note that the house you hang will probably have to weather a year before they will enter it and build a nest. They don't like fresh cut wood.

Something to consider!!

{{gwi:221137}}

Did I mention that a colbalt blue bird among pink roses is a beautiful thing?

{{gwi:221138}}

Oh, Ronda your bluebirds are lovely!

We don't have them out here, the only thing blue that I can think of are Stellar Jays - very handsome, but they prefer peanuts :-(

Yes it is! I do have bluebirds that nest every year in a box right on my back fence. I also have lots of other birds and chickens but none of that helped..it was so bad I wanted to cry! !m

Carol, your garden is a dream! It's enchanting, and the number of blooms is wonderful. I especially love your choice of colors, everything works together beautifully. I'd love to know how many years you've gardened there since you seem to have some quite large shrubs/climbers.

Ronda, the birdhouse with the bird in residence is so cute. I really like how the house blends into the wall, and the way the rose surrounds the bird house.

It's EXTREMELY reassuring to find that tea roses can be kept trimmed so they stay within bounds. I've tried to give them enough room but often haven't succeeded. At least now I have the hope that they'll be fine even if I have to trim them somewhat.

Ingrid

I find this thread really encouraging, too as I'm sure I've planted SOMETHING too close to SOMETHING.

Ingrid, my garden is 8 years old. That photo was taken 2 years ago when it was 6 years old. They are bigger now :-). Thank you all for the kind words. You should see Ronda's garden, it is beautiful!

Meghan, you are off to a wonderful start, your garden is going to be gorgeous! Your roses look so healthy and well cared for. I have a cottage garden too so I know what you mean, in addition to all those roses, I have clematis, iris, foxgloves, hydrangreas, gardenias, native azaleas, asters, and the list goes on and on. It's a process, have fun. The most beautiful combinations in my garden weren't planned at all, they were happy accidents. :-)I do have to admit that those thrips will make me think ugly words but I mostly ignore them. I've been known to cut all the blooms off and by the time the roses rebloom, the thrips are usually gone. The thing that will really make you want to cry and say bad words is when they show up for the spring flush.

Carol