The Vintage Difference - Marie Pavie

15 years ago

My new 'Marie Pavie' bands from Vintage have opened their first blooms (other than the very first bloom that immediately got pounded by a rain storm).

I am amazed at how different these blooms are compared to my 'Marie Pavie' that I bought locally here in Texas a year ago.

I think Vintage may be right, based on these first blooms, their Marie seems unique from some of the others I've seen.

The fragrance is powerful and high quality, but that was expected.

Randy

'Marie Pavie' from Vintage:

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'Reine des Violettes' is in the middle of a major spring flush. Very complex colorations going on before the blooms turn almost completely purple. Lots of fragrance going on around that plant.

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Look at the red & green leaves on 'White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth' ... it's just to the right of the yellow rose. No blooms yet, but several buds are building.

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Comments (14)

duchesse_nalabama
15 years ago
Randy, I'm glad your experiment is proving worthwhile. It was a chance well worth taking to find out for yourself.

White pearl (and everything else) look so healthy. How large is the WPIDM spozed to get? I love those red chinas.

Thanks for posting, Randy.

Gean
gnabonnand
Original Author
15 years ago
Gean, according to the china rose growth chart that Vintage has, it looks to be one of the smaller china roses. And I believe Jeri said it is not a large one. I know you like the chinas, and so do I. Over the years, I have come to apprciate more and more the china roses and the polyantha roses. They are so useful and healthy here.

Randy
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My guess is that Burlington hers from Vintage. They do trade plants; I believe that most of the own root nurseries do cooperate with each other. She has a large collection of Geschwind ramblers; the only place that could have come from, I think, is from Cliff Orent's nursery. Heirloom and Vintage both got Cliff's roses, Rogue Valley got Ashdown's stock. Connie's roses came from many places, but at least in part from Vintage, I'm sure. It's not a war with each other. The guy that owns Petals of the Past in Birmingham told me that he gets his own root old roses from Chamblees, because he said that no one propagates as well as Chamblees does. The mystery red climber that Petals carries was given to them by Ruth Knopf who got it from Malcolm Manners. Ramblers that Vintage carries, some of them, anyway, came from a lady in Washington State, Anne Belovich. Who has donated rambler cuttings to that nursery in Spokane as well as the gardens in Chambersville, Texas. We all just need to do our part and not rag on one nursery or another but list our gardens, buy and grow what we can and like so many said on Kim's thread, share, learn to propagate and give roses away to our friends. Plant them someplace, propagate for our rose groups. Jeez, I hate it when I preach. You all know what I mean.
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Great looking Marie Pavie bloom. One of my favorite roses for fragrance and for growing in a container. An indispensable rose. The one I currently grow is from the Antique Rose Emporium. My blooms are almost single, so seeing the very double bloom form on yours is a nice treat. Thanks for sharing. Randy
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I bought 2 Marie Pavies and 2 Marie Daleys from ARE and planted them around the end of Dec, 2007. MP got bigger - easily twice as big. Neither did well here from the beginning IMHO, but MP has done better. MD's color was pink in the bud, barely pink upon opening, and whitish thereafter. Very little difference from MP. They both have suffered from tan leaves, not exactly BS, but sickly looking and very little blooming through the summer. I tried to move the MDs to pots, but they croaked in short order. Maybe my thumbs aren't as green as they need to be. The weather is becoming cooler, and it shows. MP has more flowers, bigger leaves - though still a good many tan leaves. I'm not real pleased with them, but they are young. My opinion of the EarthKind rating is that it may be irrelevant in humid conditions - which much of Texas is not. We'll see now that our humidity is about to break how MP does, but we will never have 10 or 20 percent humidity in Florida! All of this that I have described may be summer dormancy, too. Most everything in my garden (Teas, HMs, GaA & even Chinas - except Monsieur Tillier) dropped their leaves and stayed bare for more than a month in August & September. I am really hoping that with maturity will come the ability to handle the heat better. But back to Marie Daley...I was unimpressed. Sherry
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I grow Marie Pavie in a large pot, too. I think this is my third year with her & mine has gotten pretty big for her pot. I've never done any pruning to her, but think I will need to cut her back some this spring. Unfortunately, mine only gets a few hours of sun once the trees leaf out...so I get wonderful wafting fragrance coming from lots and lots of blooms in the spring & fall. She repeats okay in between for being in so much shade, but usually not heavily enough to enjoy the wafting fragrance...have to smell her blooms up close then. I have Reine des Violettes planted in the ground, and after two years here, it is tall, but rather lanky (I have a support behind it, but the trellis is only about 4 ft tall, so doesn't help much). I do think it has a good fragrance & love the color and bloom form. Mine repeats fairly often, but only heavily in the spring & fall...and the summer blooms don't last too long in our heat. So far, its disease resistance has been poor here...foliage looks terrible more often than good and sometimes it completely defoliates. I don't plan to remove it, but if it were to die, I'm not sure that I would replace it due to the fungal issues. Here's my Marie Pavie in her pot last year (pic is from May 2014)...I don't have a full bush shot from this year, but she's grown a lot since then...about twice as tall now, but really not much wider:
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duchesse_nalabama
15 years ago
I am toying with buying Vintage's Cramoisi as it is 'supposed' to be the same bush size as the WP and Ducher. Their Louis Philippe they say is the Cramoisi everyone else grows. The sticker for me is that the bush size for their Louis Philippe (which they say is everyone else's Cramoisi) is also the small type 2. I'm scratching my head over that!

Your experiment is spurring me on to find out for myself what the difference is. thank you (I think...)
gnabonnand
Original Author
15 years ago
Yes, that Cramoisi / Louis Philippe thing is a real head-scratcher for sure.
I'm not sure which of the two I used to grow, but it quickly became huge. I always thought it was Cramoisi, but who really knows. It was a great rose though.
Ducher is a nice china, I really like that one.

Randy
mendocino_rose
15 years ago
Hi Randy, I've been so lazy about going to the gallery lately, sorry. I'm trying to remember where my Marie comes from. Probably most of my roses are from Vintage but I think she comes from elsewhere. It's just never been as good a rose as everyone describes Marie as being. Could be she doesn't like the location. Phillip Robinson once told me why there are better clones. He explained that there can be mutations(sports) that aren't a huge change, like color, but that are simply better versions of the original(or worse). I find that very interesting.
Anyway, nice photos!
Krista_5NY
15 years ago
Great pics, Randy. I like the color shadings of Reine des Violettes.

The foliage on the Vintage Marie seems different than the Texas version... or is it the same....
zeffyrose
15 years ago
I love that third picture----such a lovely soft romantic rose..

I always look forward to you RdesV---it is so pretty

Florence
oldblush
15 years ago
Randy, that Marie Pavie certainly looks different from mine and pretty too. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does throughout the summer.
gnabonnand
Original Author
15 years ago
Pam, sports are really interesting to me, really fascinating. It's especially nice when there are sports of some of my favorite roses such as Marie Pavie/Daly, SdlM/SdSA, Gruss/Pink Gruss. Thanks for sharing Phillip Robinson's thoughts ... food for thought.

Krista, the foliage seems the same to me on both "versions" of MP, which is to say both are large-sized leaves for a polyantha.

Florence, I liked that third one too, with the bloom hanging below the pot and the old wood bench that my step father made for me. He's a great guy, I also have bird houses in the garden that he made.

Hamp, I'll be monitoring the new MP over the summer. My first impressions of it are very, very good, and I'm happy I placed the order from Vintage. A little rose like this with all that fragance being produced deserves to live in my garden.

Randy
melva
15 years ago
Very nice Randy...I am going to go and check my White Pearl, tomorrow...mine is 4 feet x four feet...the rose is planted in the alley and gets almost no care at all...and it laughs at the mistreatment. This was last year...
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gnabonnand
Original Author
15 years ago
I remember your photos of White Pearl ... they are part of the reason I ordered it!
Mine baby one is doing well, and the blooms on my Vintage 'Marie Pavie' look even better today than they did yesterday. These Vintage band roses are doing great, and growing like weeds.

Randy
melva
15 years ago
I didn't get back in the alley to check White Pearl, etc. but I looked as I drove by the alley, on the way home from the store...I could see at least one bloom. I want to plant another one in a spot where it will have more sun and more care...watch that one die!
gnabonnand
Original Author
15 years ago
That's usually how it goes, Melva :-)

Randy
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
15 years ago
Randy, the Marie Pavie I had some years ago looked nothing like yours, which is absolutely exquisite. Mine was pretty much white and rather lackluster. I wish I had room for the Vintage one. Perhaps it's one I need to make room for. Your RdV is gorgeous, as usual. I think that rose loves you.

Ingrid

The Vintage Difference - Marie Pavie

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