I won't knock the school system for stepping in to what was once a family's responsibility.....because very many young children aren't getting it at home anymore for one reason or another.

What should they teach as well as the 3 Rs? How to understand and participate in our governmental process, fiscal responsibility included in a personal or family living format, basic societal skills, current events especially both locally and at the global level, personal and environmental health, and intercommunication. I think much of those are already presented in upper level courses in established and traditional coursework.

What should they not include? I am particularly concerned with the emphasis on pulling children into the educational processes when they are barely more than toddlers for what educators seem to feel are conditioning curriculum on what they should believe, based on the current mindsets. It's to the point now that I've seen young children feel very free to challenge their parents or elders on their lifestyles or beliefs. They have the rest of their lives to do that when they get out of the school system. I've seen the way that operates in other countries ......get to them young and indoctrinate them.

Economics and fiscal responsibility as soon as they are in Kindergarten and every year hence in one form or another until they graduate. Kids can now have credit cards and are inundated with advertising and buy buy buy,now now now,via TV and online. Parents can teach all they want,but kids pay more attention when it's coming from teachers,and peers via discussions etc. The value of the dollar in the current market,budgeting,credit cards,interest and how it works..all can be learned at a young age.

Suz, that whole thing about challenging... LF and I used to butt heads constantly about this until I started saying, "When they say question authority, they didn't mean your parents (or God for us)! You say yes ma'am, no sir, and then do it/don't do it. Period." I actually didn't have trouble with this until he was mainstreamed. I always thought it was the kids, but maybe the school system was also an influence. Interesting. The good news is, I do actually think the pendulum is swinging back on a good majority of your items, at least in my community. Paideia schooling is to thank! I wish all schools, everywhere did what they do. It's a sad statement that most adults are surprised and happy to hear for what my son's school stands.

M, I totally agree on the financial thing. I wish I hadn't learned so many of those lessons the hard way. Worse, I'm teaching my mother how not to live on credit and how a budget works in reality. I attribute her lack of knowledge to her mother/father (one of the first generations to have credit) not having taught her.

What about Don's (I think) theory on how when musical instruction was used, both sides of the brain worked together? Should all schools require some musical instrument instruction for students to facilitate this process?

Moral responsibility: learn not only what is legally right or wrong, but sociological, fiscal, and ecological cause and effects.

Basic Living, to include
Monetary responsibility -- and how to balance their checkbooks [do not laugh, I have several friends who are CPAs and in a recent discussion I learned none balanced their private checkbooks!].
How to live within a small budget, which should include comparison shopping, basic nutrition, simple cooking and baking, and how to keep a house clean. Now that we live in a throw-away society, I removed mending from the list. Maybe it should stay on...

Courtesy to all. Without that oil of civilization, the rest of the education is wasted.

Oh, and I really don't believe it's to their advantage to separate students by age or by grade or by academic achievment (or by height or eye color or family income or any of the other et ceteras). Let the child advance to the next academic level of *each* subject once s/he has demonstrated that the preceding information was actually learned. Let there be nationwide, honorable certificates given as each level of each course is mastered, so that a child who can/can't multiply, read, do geometry, play basketball, converse in French, etc. will be able to move from one locale to another without sticker-shock.

In regard to manageing money, I can remember my mother telling me that even though Santa Claus brought the presents, he sent the bill to her. That lesson has stuck with me all my life - nothing is free. Ellie

I did my research fro my MS in enviromental education at a preschool called the School for Young Children. This fabulous place taught small persons respect for themselves and others. They did this through very structured bounderies. For example in taking turns if several children wanted one toy there was a list. When it was a child's turn he or she could play with the toy for as long as they wanted but when they stopped it was the next child's turn. If tussels developed there was no punishment per se but the offender was gently but firmly told it was not their turn now and taken to another area to play. The children were taught to be assertive but not agressive. In disagreements children were reminded, "use your words," when they could not think of any were prompted "I feel ..." I have often thought that a lot of adults I know could benefit from the lessons so aptly taught at the School for Young Children.

Liza, My mom used to tell me the same thing about Santa! He brought the toys, but she & dad had to pay for them.

Thinking about what schools should teach, I just look back to what I was taught in school & compare it to what (mostly) isn't being taught now:
--Art
--Music
--Grammar
--Writing
--Civics (down to 6 weeks[!!] in the schools here)
--Basic personal economics (calculating basic & compound interest, balancing a checkbook, setting up household budgets, etc.)
--Health (We had these classes as part of Phys Ed & they covered everything from basic nutrition to the evils of marijuana)

As to teaching values & morality, I'm not sure that's a real good idea. You all may think that there are absolutes in basic behavior, but I'm betting those absolutes would start shading into many layers of gray once they became part of a school curriculum & started to be examined by parents. Personally, I think things like religion & morality are best kept out of school.

Per my friend who teaches at an alternative high school...she spends more time trying to keep order in the classroom than actual teaching. Perhaps from day one children should be taught how to behave in the classroom so they could learn....anything.

andie ~ I'm thinking that it's the shades of gray which *should* be taught, after the basic absolutes: hurting people/murder is wrong, stealing is wrong, lying/cheating is wrong. It's simple enough to teach to a kindergartener - why is it wrong: do you want to others to hurt you? have your possessions stolen? have someone tell a lie which causes you to get into trouble? Too many kids today think cheating is okay, lying is a funny joke, stealing is all right as long as you don't get caught. Sure, I think the first place morals should be taught is in the family, but I also think the schools should not only be firmly supportive of decent behavior, but actually teach what is meant by that, because all too many families are letting their kids rely on tv, movies, and peers to set an example.

None of this is about religion, it's about being someone worth knowing and worth having as a member of the community. Will some parents complain? -- no doubt! Some people think complaining and contradiction is a viable form of conversation. But I look at them the same way I look at those complaining about red light cameras or enforcing speed limits. If you aren't guilty, you don't really need to worry about being caught... it's the folks who think red lights and speed limits don't apply to themselves, that are the danger, along with the folks that think there is something wrong about actually catching the lawbreakers and having them make retribution.

And those shades of gray? I think they fall into two categories -Moral: Is a white lie acceptable? and -Local Custom: It's okay to take a dog into a restaurant if you're in France, but not if you're in America.

How could you possibly teach anything about white lies to children when we as adults don't even agree on what is ok and what isn't? What I would consider a perfectly acceptable situation in which to lie,someone else would not. I would be very upset if I as a parent had a teacher even broaching this subject with my child.

The same goes with local customs. What does local mean? You can take dogs into some restaurants around here and others you can't. I think there are very few local customs pertaining to the entire USA. I guess I am agreeing with Andie,and as a retired teacher,I think you have to be very very careful of not teaching kids your particular shade of gray,when in the classroom next door could be another shade of gray is being taught and so on.Who decides which gray it's going to be?

To me, to prohibit the teaching of the existence of 'moral gray areas' is like prohibiting the teaching that we do not know how many stars are in existence. IOW, we can forbid teachers to talk about them, but that isn't going to wipe out the fact of their existence. I'd much rather have a good classroom discussion that tries to define and determine whether or not a white lie is acceptable social behavior than to have a dogmatic pronunciation that it is [or is not] acceptable. My point is not that a single shade of gray be taught, but that it should be acknowledged that there are indeed many shades of gray, and some of those shades are going to be more socially acceptable than others.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the US Dept of Health recommends that pets -a 'service dog' for the blind etc. is not considered a pet- *not* be permitted inside a restaurant. State and local governments can make this recommendation into a local law; and so far I have not been able to find any instance of a variance which does permit pets inside a restaurant. But you are right, there could well be a locality which considers pets as acceptable patrons of interior dining rooms. I do know that just a couple years ago, Alexandria VA won a variance which permitted dogs in certain *outdoor* dining areas with considerable regulation to assure the cleanliness of the food servers and eating area.

I agree with a lot with what you are saying but the title of this thread was what SHOULD schools teach and I don't think those "gray areas" should be mandated. Once they are then guidelines must be met etc. etc. It's an incredibly slippery slope. Classrooms do have those discussions such as you have mentioned at least they do in this area and very little is prohibited,but none of it is a "have to teach" kind of situation.. Right now bullying is something all schools are doing on the elementary level but it's up to the teachers on how to handle it,or even if they want to. Just out of curiosity if you were a teacher,which white lies would you teach kids are acceptable,if at all?

I took parental teaching very, very seriously. I can't imagine what it must be like to be responsible for giving input to large groups of diverse children at one time. It would have to be a very narrow rope to walk. Can you remember prejudiced instructors? I surely can, from kindergarten all the way through university level. Putting aside personal agendas is a very difficult task. I don't necessarily mean prejudice in racial matters, but in almost everything if you think of it.

Morals should be addressed in childhood, but it shouldn't be mandated in schools. I Agree very firmly there. This is a home issue. You could define appropriate societal manners, however, and stay on safer ground. When I was in school, it was in the form of teaching manners. There are rules of etiquette covering most situations. Without it, groups are chaotic. We were taught about writing thank you letters, telephone manners, and sharing.

Kids are curious and if they have a good rapport with a teacher, you can take it to the bank they will cough up delicate questions about things like lying, ethnic diversities, right/wrong, cheating, even their parent's personal lives. LOL. I had plenty of situations as a nurse in a children's hospital unit where I had to choose words very, very carefully so as not to undermine family mores, values, parental respect or beliefs. It's a sticky wicket and I'm not one to hand out vague, meaningless responses. It's a people skill and a hard one. With my own children, it was a no brainer who ruled the roost, but they were listened to, and encouraged to contribute to important discussions and respected, even if not always agreed with. They always knew why I was doing what I was doing. Rationale is an important part of the learning process.

Three areas I think are often neglected nowadays at the elementary school level:

1) Science.

2) The Arts: fine art, music, dance, drama. The elementary school where I teach had to apply for a grant to get money to include these the past year. (For this year we got a grant for The Mind Institute, which ties together music, math and computers.)

3) Conflict resolution. For the youngsters, my school uses a program called "Second Step -- A Violence Prevention Curriculum" and it's about empathy, respect, and using words to resolve problems. Again, we had to apply for grant money to get the materials and training. I'm sure there are other good programs and strategies around.

Most schools don't apply for, qualify for or receive the kinds of "extra" programs I mentioned.

In my opinion, there is way too much emphasis on rote learning, geared to those standardized state tests, and too little on building thinking skills and real-world problem solving.

Okay, if I have to stick to items which should be mandated:

1. Physical and spoken Courtesy, with a wide sidebar of what's considered courteous in other cultures.

2. Geology and Oceanography, started in early elementary grades. Really, this should be part of an overall ecological program. I am appalled at the number of people who have no conception of the cycle of water.

3. BLS [Basic Life Skills] that is real-life. It should include how to balance a checkbook and a budget; how to shop for and prepare a month's worth of good-tasting, economical, nutritious meals (including snacks); and how to repair a drippy faucet. IMO, a good BLS course starts in kindergarten and continues through high school.

4. Handwriting and public speaking.

5. An aural history of Music in conjunction with a visual history of Art and with participatory Dance for the era presented. For everyone, not just those interested in drawing or drumming.

6. And this isn't a course, but --having visited numerous local schools-- I firmly believe it should be a requirement: QUIET. Nothing over the audio system except the very minimum of properly articulated announcements of importance to the whole school; also there should be no shouting, yelling, running/pushing/shoving in the halls, or playing of any sort of electronic items. In fact, I don't believe that iPods, M3 players, handheld e-games, etc. should be a part of any student's attire while at school. Cellphones should be worn by all of the adults and none of the students. In other words, I think a school is place for learning, not for playing e-games or spending classtime in social interaction. (I guess this paragraph steps on almost everyone's toes. If I didn't, I *could* add my opinion of the value of school-sponsored sports played outside standard school hours.)

Meldy, you're pretty much describing my grade school experience, and I've got to tell you that when I get together with my really old friends, we often talk about how lucky we were to go to the schools that we did in the first 18 years of our life.

Of course, even back then our parents were paying really big property taxes, and that's the other side of the equation. The whole time I was in school, I cannot remember one bond issue is support of the schools that didn't pass (and there were some huge ones like in the mid-1950's when all the grade schools were either rebuilt or had additions added that doubled their size or in the 1970's when the size of the high school was doubled). What I see now is a singular lzck of willingness in the community to pay for quality education. Yet these same people constantly complain about the school's not doing their job. You can't have it both ways.