Rob - If you pile and rake your compost, then do that before slit seeding to avoid disturbing the seeds. It may be a little bit better to fling it from your wheel barrow after seeding but before the watering begins. You will have to be careful not to disturb the seeds too much. I wouldnÂt rake or sweep newly seeded ground. Not all the seed end up in the slits. Lots of seed ends up on top of the soil. DonÂt disturb it. Since you are renovating, I think it would be fine to spread the compost before slit seeding along with your fertilizer. That could be done a day or two before planting day. So my vote is for the first sentence. Pile, spread and rake it around before planting. Good luck. Post some pics of your project this fall or next spring. Bill Hill

Thanks for the feedback Bill.

Should I run the slit seeder a little lower with the compost on top? Or stick to the 1/8 - 1/4" depth of slits?

As morpheus says....execution is at dawn.....I'll have pictures of the gradual death and new babies.

Bestlawn....are you around?

Hi there, Rob. So sorry I wasn't around. Can I tell you I have a couple concerns? First, I want to say I think Blue Velvet, Bedazzled, and Moonlight sound great. My concern is whatever disease that exists. I would prefer to be able to blend specifically for that, but it doesn't appear you know exactly what it is yet. Just to be on the safe side, let me suggest you submit samples to KSU Plant Pathology. For some reason, I don't find any NTEP tests for summer patch in your area, only in eastern portions of the country. The reason could be almost anything, and whatever I deduce can only be a wild guess. I know summer patch and brown patch are common in eastern areas, especially mid- and southern, so I wonder if perhaps it means they're not common in the western portions of the mid-west. Better safe than sorry if we can compose a blend that proves more resistant than the one we have devised. There's still time.

I didn't read all of the thread you linked to, but recall that you plan to dethatch and core aerate. Core aerating kinda makes slit seeding difficult. In your case, I think core aerating is more important. Slit seeding is the ideal and preferred method for sowing seeds, but don't worry because core aerating really helps when having to broadcast them. So glad to know you have converted to organics. That'll keep thatch to a minimum, providing less shelter for disease.

You probably know all this, but I'm linking to this thread for methods in managing and preventing disease in the future.

Mallory -

No problem - I just wanted to bump the thread in case you weren't around over the weekend....threads can be long gone in a short time over the weekends!

Well shoot....now I'm concerned. I hit the yard with the first round of RU yesterday morning. Would the sample still be worth submitting or did I just taint it?

Assuming the sample will be ok, which test do I need to request? I'll try to get this going ASAP if I can so I can get seeds ordered. I'm worried about timing now......

I was thinking that by mowing to get all the dead stuff up and possibly taking a power rake to get up all the thatch that I'd be better off slitseeding to get the grass in there good and then core aerate next fall. You think aerate is a better option and just broadcast? I was planning to 'cheat' with the Nitron A-35 and slitseed it.

Also, what do you think about the timing of putting down the compost? My soil is typical new construction kansas clay. My efforts to enrich the soil don't appear to have done much yet.

{{gwi:110773}}

I've got this one. That's a green-back porcupine. I believe they're only native to Kansas.

So lemme get this straight,I should spread compost and then fertilize, then run the slit seeder over the whole deal?

Green AND Straw-Backed porcupine....... ;-)

bump....Mallory, did I lose you? Sent you an email....

Rob, you won't believe I actually thought I responded late last night. Don't know what happened.

Submit the sample anyway or at least call the number on the first page of the link to find out for sure. I called but there was no one in the lab, so maybe try again later. I really don't think it matters because the stuff doesn't harm or alter soil composition. It works to prevent the plant from producing carbohydrates/sugars/proteins for life, so I don't expect it has any affect on the presence of disease spores. If it did, it could be used as an antifungal. I could be wrong about that. When you submit to the extension office, tell them so they can make any necessary notes to the lab.

The test can take anywhere between 2 days and 2 weeks. You have til mid September to get the seeds down. You want to apply a second app of "R" anyway, but if the test extends you beyond a week of the second app, no harm in spraying a 3rd time for interim weed growth. You can seed 3-4 days after.

So much I'm trying to keep up with I think. I was thinking you were overseeding and recommended core aerating to hopefully stave off new growth for a short while. Sorry about that. So go ahead with the Nitron and slit seeding.

As Bill submitted, you don't want to disturb the seed bed. Your plan to topdress first sounds like a good one.

Meant to let you know I can't receive emails through GardenWeb. Many people who were members before the site's sale to iVillage have that problem (and others). It happened when they switched servers a year or so ago. Wouldn't want you to think I was ignoring you.

So will the seed germinate fine if its sitting in compost vs. sitting on topsoil?

No problem at all....I'm sure you're just as busy with 'real life' as the rest of us. I sure do appreciate your input.

I was also unable to reach anyone in the KSU lab (which is disappointing, I'm an alum) so I searched out the Missouri extension office and saw that they offer a digital photo diagnosis service. Since I still wasn't sure if the RU was going to be a problem, I sent in some photos last evening and I'm hoping to call and check on the status of it this afternoon. If they can't determine anything from the photos, I'll have a sample to them ASAP.

About the disease - I am positive it is soilborne. There are no lesions or spots on the leaves. There was absolutely no sign of a problem prior to the grass just up and dying. I have been watching the lawn very close all year looking for signs of needing water and it never happened. As you can see from my photos (link) the grass right to any side looked great and was well watered. When the grass is parted, the root/thatch area is very dark and rotted feeling. It smells very musty.

After looking through as many turfgrass issues as I could find, summer patch sure fits the bill better than anything else. Hopefully this will narrow it down.

If it is summer patch, would any of the Mag 3 not be well suited against it?

I'm sorry guys, but that is clearly a mottled hedgehog. Very rare.

A few days ago, I guessed pythium blight affected a member's lawn and suggested he submit samples for positive diagnosis. Turned out to be fusarium blight, which is a concert of several diseases. The symptoms he described and the pictures looked just like pythium to me and nothing like the others it turned out to be. We weren't trying to compose a blend of seed varieties for him, thank goodness.

While the Magnificent 3 offers good overal disease resistance, I prefer to blend specifically when there is disease present, but I cannot guess at that and you'd do well not to either. Another point to note is the possibility those varieties might do well to resist the disease in one area of the country but exhibits little or no resistance in your area. I can certainly understand you wanting to proceed forward and hating this delay, but let's do everything right as best we can. No regrets then.

Parafly, he'll apply a quarter inch layer of compost and then slit seed to a depth of 1/4 inch. Where will the seeds be? In a fine position to root into the soil. It just wouldn't be a good idea to seed into compost because, while it's an excellent growing medium, it is just that - a medium and not permanent.

Paul, what is?

We're having fun with my turf picture above.....and it is indeed rare, Paul!

Fair enough Mallory. I'm not that concerned with the delay. I was just curious if maybe the mention of soilborne might have narrowed any blending options. Since it doesn't sound that way, we'll get this nailed down and go from there.

Spoke with the lab tech @ University of Missouri. He said it appears from the photos to be summer patch and mentioned they have seen a lot of it from the heavy rain period we had earlier this spring. I will be sending a sample to have them confirm it.

Bestlawn, am curious why you would not sow in compost - of course the term "medium" has a number of meanings and I assume you were just playing with them to make a point by contrasting "medium" to "permanent" - of course, soil is a growing "medium" also...

Are you concerned that as the stuff starts to compact that it will start crushing tender roots that grew in the lighter material? Something else? I know some vegetable gardeners who grow their plants in almost 100% compost so wonder why grass seeds would not do as well.

Oh, and as rlembke mentioned I was talking about that photo - the mottled hedgehog is indeed an uncommon species, as rlembke confirmed, but it is extremely rare to see one with those particular markings. ;-)

Paul

I think I have an extremely rare version, Paul......seems this particular hedgehog is chameleon like in that it changes from part green/part tan to completely tan when in the presence of glyphosate! hehe......BURN BABY BURN! Take those fungi with ya!

Paul, you need to get paid for catching all my errors LOL. I got so hung up in a thought I completely lost that I didn't get around to distinguishing temporary medium and a permanent one. Compost becoming compacted isn't a concern but rather that it will degrade in about a year or two, so grass shouldn't be grown in it. Ideal soil for grass is a loam of clay, sand, and silt with a small percentage of organic matter for microbial activity and to support cation exchange (among many other purposes). Were it not that compost is temporary, it would be perfect for grass (except that it doesn't compact like clay), being that it's so fertile and helps root growth. Thus, great for vegetables, which are a harvested crop and not sustainable like a lawn.

Funny you say that rlembke, I just applied my roundup today and am starting to wonder if I have an unnatural number of them burrowing in my lawn!

Cheers to philes for being so fast out of the gate here.

Paul

Bestlawn, believe me, if either of us owes the other anything, it is not you! You know and share so much here, I know very little and mostly just ask questions when I am confused. I think many of us here (and lurking) owe you a great debt of gratitude for your efforts.

Anyway, if I understand you correctly it sounds like grass will grow fine in compost, but that layering compost over unsatisfactory soil is not an effective method of amending that soil and will result in only short-lived success if the inadequate soil is not fixed by other means. Do I have that right? I am interested in this because I am starting over this year, but have filled some low spots with a mixture of soil and compost that I had on hand, and though I imagine I will have to topdress with soil periodically next year to keep the level up as the organics break down, I don't want the initial seeding to fail.

Thank you again,
Paul

No, actually, just the opposite. Compost is an excellent soil amendment. It can fix the soil in a lot ways (as mentioned in last post), including helping to neutralize pH balance and facilitating transport of oxygen, water, and nutrients. Don't take that to mean the addition of organic soil can fix everything, just that it serves a very needed purpose.

I'm saying an organic soil alone is not a good growing medium for grass, and think that also applies to soil with too much organic matter. It can be deceiving. Once it degrades, where do roots go if there isn't enough soil to support them? That's the reason you don't want those mixtures to be composed of too much compost so that decomposure is unnoticeable by volume. The compost might comprise about 10 percent of total structure and can be continually replenished.

It's a good idea not to discount the need and useful purpose of either earth or organic matter. If you think your soil is inadequate or deficient in any way, it's too easy to fix it, and a soil test can reveal what it needs. Ordinarily, there are several different soil tests to choose from, each costing more than the last because it tests for more.

I have to echo what Paul said.....we all owe you big time Mallory!

After reading Billhill's recommendation to rutgers1 in his compost thread, I think I've changed my mind about the right time and method for applying the compost. I think I'd feel better about slitseeding directly into the soil without the compost in place and then topdress manually afterwards. Something about not being sure where my seeds are being placed and in which medium (soil or compost) is too iffy for me.

The plan now looks something like this.....

1) Roundup Round 1 (DONE)
2) Roundup Round 2
3) Scalp mow w/ bagger
4) Aerate
5) Run slitseeder w/o seeds several passes and rake up
6) Spread starter fertilizer
7) Slidseed w/ seeds (2.5lbs/1k)
8) Topdress with compost

Mallory - any thoughts on seeds if this is summer patch?

So how do you plan on topdressing after slit seeding without disturbing the seeds? I have 15,000 square feet to topdress - probably will take me a full weekend just to do the topdressing and seedng (like a 6am-10pm Sat & Sun weekend!)

From what billhill said, after slit seeding you would be ok to walk on the seeding ground. I have to assume some level of walking would be possible, being careful of course. If the seeds are ok to run a roller over to get good soil contact, a footstep or carefully driven wheel barrow wheel can't be too hard. At some point the 80/20 principle has to come into effect. Worst case, I'll have a few places that need a little more seed come spring. I would hope the compost does more good than harm in this case.

I have 8k sf and I've calculated that needs a little over 6 cu yds of compost to cover 1/4". That'll be 27 wheel barrow loads for me. I'm envisioning the best way to spread the compost in a seed-friendly way will be to get a 5-gallon bucket, sharpen one side of the mouth so it slices into a wheel barrow full of compost easily and shake to cover. I don't anticipate it being a quick job but after having moved river rock by the wheel barrow load, this seems to be time consuming but not necessarily back breaking.

The reason for my original question that started this thread was because the only way I could envision putting out this much compost was to wheel barrow into piles and then spread with a rake. As I think about how thick 1/4" really is, I think the raking will be much more work than just shaking the compost on. Remain standing upright while shaking compost on the ground to cover or bend over pushing thick piles into thin sheets? I'm open to other ideas though....

I've been researching good ways to put down compost and there are just very few options.

Thank god compost is not that heavy.

I think I might actually go to Home Depot and buy a tractor cart attachment. I wasn't going to at first but I think if I can use a tow-behind cart I will save a lot of trips with the increased capacity plus not having to move a wheelbarrow all day long.

This is gonna cost $1000 by the time I am done haha.

Sounds Like a good Miller High Life Commercial.

Man skips heavy machinery and heavy raking to ensure he doesn't mess up his newly planted seeds. Instead he uses a 5 gallon bucket to gently sprinkle the compost over his newly planted seedbed. He takes his time to get the job done right..Now that's living the High Life :)

I actually like this Idea and since I only have 2000 sq feet don't think it is unreasonable. I'm thinking I'm only going to need two yards of compost....? Is there any way to make 2 yards of compost at home between now and Sept 1st?

Don't know if you guys saw any of the following. Also saw Dchall suggest mounding small piles and using a blower. Sounds like less back work.

Compost Spreaders
Compost Spreader

Yeah, the Magnificent 3 sounds great
Midnight II (or Blue Velvet)
Bedazzled
Moonlight

Be sure to ask for sod quality seeds. Killing off the existing lawn means new establishment rate of seeding,
3-3.5 lbs/1000.

Saw those, I wonder how good they work, especially the one with the cage.

I would be nervous to blow the compost around because of the seed althought I suppose I could blow it out of the wheelbarrow...

I'm not killing my grass though :) just going low with the existing and topping it with Bedazzled, Moonlight and Midnight.