Lava Rock or Charcaol replace parts of Gritty or 5-1-1 mix?

10 years ago

Hi there,

I just planted a few african violets in the 5-1-1 mix and put them in domed trays as I usually do with regular soil. The higher humidity makes it so that I don't have to water as often, however, the bark got very moldy so now I had to take them out and have been watering them.

I'm curious if there is a replacement for the bark in the 5-1-1? For example could I use Lava Rock or Horitcultural Charcoal or extra perlite? I need something that would be inorganic so that nothing molds over.

I want to avoid the gritty mix if I can because I just read a thread of one of the ingredients causing cancer? I think it was Diatomaceous Earth. Also, I want things that are easy/inexpensive to order online or find in small quantities, I have NO ROOM AT ALL for big giant bags of stuff, it would take the only room I have for growing plants.

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Comments (10)

Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio
10 years ago
The carcinogen in DE and clay products is crystalline silica, a natural quartz like substance that is also in perlite, sand and many other products you probably encounter in daily life. There is only a trace of the stuff in DE. Breathing silica dust may cause silicosis or lung cancer. That's why you need to use a mask when screening and mixing any container mix. Touching the stuff won't hurt you.
plantcrazed101
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks for letting me know Ohiofem!

I was wondering if Pumice could perhaps replace bark in the 5-1-1 mix? I think it's suppose to hold water and wouldn't mold over in domed trays...what size should it be?
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Hi Al/plantcrazed/et. al., I thought I should come back and share some results from my "experiment" that I started at the end of April. The controls in my little trial were almost non-existent, but I think that actually makes the results more relevant to me and my growing conditions (and hopefully others will get something from this too). Back in April I got an order of leaves of 19 varieties of AVs. 14 came as pairs of leaves, so I decided to try growing them in different media. As I described in my post in mid-May, 14 leaves went in 100% vermiculite and 19 leaves in 100% turface fines (the smaller stuff left over after sifting for other mixes). The planting tray is an old kit I had leftover from years ago that has a clear cover for germinating/propagating. I had grand plans to carefully measure watering, leaf condition, first sign of roots/new leaves, etc. (like a good experimenter would), but the same day I planted the leaves my toddler ended up in the ER, kicking off several weeks of stress and doctor's visits, not to mention usual life events and adventures when working full time and caring for a small child. My plant care regimen settled in to, basically, watering when I noticed they looked dry. After the plantlets started to appear I took the covers off the trays, but otherwise I've just watered and left them under fluorescent lights and hoped for the best. Here are my results. Vermiculite 4 have plantlets, all of which seem to be growing alright 5 are mostly-dead or all-dead 1 formed a nice-looking plantlet that subsequently died, tho the leaf is still there and has roots 4 have roots but no sign of new leaves (yet?) Turface fines all 19 leaves are still alive 16 have multi-leaf plantlets 1 has a new leaf just beginning to appear 2 are strongly rooted and some gentle investigation revealed new leaves that just haven't broken the surface yet (I had just finished watering when I took this photo, which is why the turface shows wet and dry spots. This is what my usual watering of this tray looks like) A few other observations: the leaves of the new plants in the vermiculite are larger than any in the turface the leaves of the new plants in the turface are much smaller, but there are many of them, they are a strong green colour, and have a vital appearance (my experience tells me these are stronger plants than in the vermiculite) one variety was not in very good shape when it arrived. I considered complaining to the store owner about the quality, but see above re: bigger life priorities right now. That variety didn't survive more than a few days in the vermiculite. The leaf just rotted away. In the turface, it slowly rotted up the stem towards the leaf, but then rooted from the remaining piece of leaf and now has a lovely little plant growing: What these results say to me is that, for my horrible, neglectful treatment of these leaves, the turface was a better growing medium. I'm sure Al or Kevin/ewwmayo would have the correct terms for the properties of the two media, but I would say it seemed like the vermiculite contributed to a less stable environment - it went from a soggy mess when I watered to very dry, very quickly - and the turface was much more stable and allowed these poor things to survive despite my neglect. I've read some of the very lengthy threads about the properties of the various gritty mix ingredients and it makes sense to me that a plant like an AV that doesn't like to dry out but also hates being soggy would appreciate the turface's qualities of holding water but allowing for drainage and air movement through the medium. I think from now on the turface fines will be my preferred method for starting AV leaves (and likely other similar plants like episcias or begonias). I also moved two other AVs (a standard and a mini) into a modified gritty mix (1:1:1, but perlite in place of bark). So far nothing meaningful to report, though neither plant has bloomed and the mini seems to be happier than the standard. But with my neglect of the plants lately I don't think these results are meaningful, beyond saying that AVs can actually survive in the gritty mix even with an inconsistent and sub-optimal care routine. If there's anything interesting to report as these AVs continue to grow and I pot them up (likely into a gritty mix of some sort), I'll be sure to come back with an update. I would happily accept comments/questions/criticisms of my results, but please be kind in your criticisms of my care routine. I might be bad with my plants, but this little one is thriving: Thanks everyone, Melanie
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I've been using a 50:50 base mix of perlite/ turface for many years. You can easily modify this mix for different needs. Most mesembs benefit from the addition of a clayey component. For me, I just dig beyond the topsoil in my yard for some good dirt. I also substitute perlite for some lava rock and small pebbles. It's a heavier, longer lasting mix which works when repotting infrequently for mesembs. This same mix is my preference for small cactus species like Aztekium, Blossfeldia, tricky mamms like luethyi, etc. "bigger" plants like some Crassula, aloes, aeonium etc. you could add more perlite to lighten big pots. It also makes it safer to leave outdoors all spring/summer/fall with rain. My palms, plumeria and cycads live in this mix too. Floating perlite is not an issue. But it does easily displace with high water pressure like from a hose. Some form of fertilizer is a must. I'm also a fan of submerging small pots with small plants into bigger, deeper containers to help stabilize root temperatures. Practically any healthy plant I've ever had to repot always has roots circling the bottom. I really don't understand the concept of shallow or regular pots. I think the deeper the better. I haven't really noticed any exception. For some species it's mandatory. Haworthias, many cactus plants with tuberous roots. Even Lithops which tolerate a shallow home will grow much better in very deep pots. Pleiospilos too. For anyone unsure or unconvinced, try an experiment. Take a pot with any plant you want, and bury it into much deeper pot for a growing season. Pull it out later and see what you find. Bury an Aloe, pachypodium or most any strong Echeveria or similar in the garden and watch it take off. We would all be great at bonsai, plenty good experience with root constriction and limiting growth lol!
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I am happy to address some of your issues but the Container Gardening forum is not likely to get you much additional input. What is going on with your shrubs has nothing to do with any issues pertaining to container gardening or using or replacing with container soil mixes. If you find my comments not fully helpful, I'd strongly suggest you repost this in the Shrubs or even the Soils and Compost forum. Redtip photinias, Photinia x fraseri, is known to be tolerant of clay soils - in fact it is included on lists of plants recommended for clay. So I doubt the issues with your plants are confined to their being planted in clay. Unless the clay does not drain adequately. And as you indicate the hedge is established for privacy, I am assuming they have been in place for some time so you would have noticed drainage problems - like puddling or standing water for periods of time - before now. It is seldom practical or cost effective to remove and replace soil. And typically unnecessary as well. One amends the soil, adding to existing soil whatever amendments/soil additives may be necessary to affect improvement. With clay, that usually means adding the generous quantities of organic matter I mentioned in my previous post, to both lighten or loosen the soil and improve drainage. Using these products as a topdressing can help but it is not as efficient a method or as fast as incorporating the OM into the existing soil. Unfortunately, that means you need to remove the current hedge to do so. As an aside, if you were to replace the soil, you would need to do the same thing, so I am assuming you are not adverse to that. FWIW, if that's the plan, I'd consider some alternatives to the redtips, perhaps even one of the California native plants commonly used for hedging, as they tend to be well-adapted to both your climate (and drought) and native soil conditions, including pH.. And will generally have less issues than the redtips, which are plagued by some serious disease issues that are significantly reducing their suitability for landscape plantings in much of the US. Your plants are definitely stressed - the mites and the chlorosis are clear indications. The clay may or may not have much of a bearing on this - it's almost impossible to say for certain without seeing the plants and the site in person. It could just as well be that these particular shrubs are just not well suited to your situation. One thing I would suggest is to bring in a horticulturist for an onsite consultation - your extension service or better garden center should be able to give you some referrals. These folks are experienced and skilled in evaluating plants for both siting and cultural issues as well as diagnosing insects, diseases and nutrient problems. I know these sorts of folks exist as this is a significant part of what I do for a living :-) If you do care to repost on another, more relevant forum, please include photos of the entire hedge and at least one plant in its entirety, as well as any detail photos. The more we know about the situation, as limited as that might be just via photos, the better the advice you will receive. And include exactly where you are located and how these plants are watered and the frequency.
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Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio
10 years ago
I had to laugh when I did a Google search on pumice. Turns out it has a high crystalline silica content. Don't get me wrong -- I think it's a great container substrate. But it's nothing like bark, so you might as well drop the idea of creating a mix "like 5-1-1" if you are not going to use bark.

I suggest you come at your question from a different direction and post it again. You want to know what to do to prevent mold from forming under the dome you put over your African Violets. In my opinion, the answer is to remove the dome and figure out a different way to deal with the watering demands of your AVs. My basement is made of concrete and it's a constant struggle to keep mold down if we don't run our dehumidifier full time. You don't need something organic to grow mold.
plantcrazed101
Original Author
10 years ago
What's strange is that I had just regular soil with some perlite under my domes, and I had NO mold, only the bark mix plants had mold.

I decided I'd go with a form of gritty mix. Since my pots are so so tiny, I don't really need a lot of mix to begin with, what do you think about this mix on ebay?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/321195534067?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

32% - 1/4" - 1/32" Natural Cascade Mountain Volcanic Lava rock. Pleasing mix of red, grey, black and white.

32% - 1/4" - 1/32" Natural Cascade Mountain Volcanic Pumice. Pumice has many tiny gaps or air pockets that allow roots access to oxygen, nutrients and water. Pumice improves both water retention and drainage.

32% - Turface MVP. Turface MVP contain 26% solid material, 39% water-holding capacity and 35% air-holding capacity. This allows Turface MVP to hold water and oxygen Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½" as well as nutrients Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½" in nearly perfect balance, helping to produce fine root systems.

4% - Excelerite Remineralizer & Micro Organism Multipler. A broad spectrum of bio-active minerals and over 60 trace elements that are necessary for the well being of beneficial soil microorganisms.

I LOVE that it's pre-mixed! lol
plantcrazed101
Original Author
10 years ago
LOL at the pumice with even more cancer crystals! haha I guess I'll just be wearing a breathing mask no matter what!
plantcrazed101
Original Author
10 years ago
So what does everyone/anyone think of this mix?
rooftopbklyn (zone 7a)
10 years ago
I think particles down to 1/32" means that this mix can't really be considered "gritty", though I guess it depends what the distribution is from 1/4" to 1/32".

Maybe your mold issue had more to do with the particular bark you were using than with bark in general. I personally haven't found much success with 100% enclosed anything, but have done well with small vents, and by regularly opening up enclosed containers and blowing some fresh air inside daily.

Daniel
plantcrazed101
Original Author
10 years ago
Well the issue for me is that I have one system working really well...no problems, and another system that isn't working.

For my AVs, I put them in domes when they are leaves and only have to water them every two weeks or so. They are VERY happy and I have no problems with this system. I changed a few of the pots to experiment with 5-1-1, I used Repti-bark. They molded really quickly, so I had to go back and re-pot all of them in 75% perlite, 25% miracle grow soil. They have no mold and look very happy. I've have never had mold issues before under domes.

As for doming, I have had huge success with completely closed domes and know lots of growers that do really well with domes, even repairing unhappy plants by putting them in domes. I'm not sure WHY it's so successful, but I've had more problems with the plants grown and raised outside of the domed trays than in. My guess is that I'm using less water. My water is horrible because I had the same conditions in my previous city and had NONE of these problems.

The reason I know that I have to change my system for my AVs out of domes is because they are staying very wet being wicked and also have fertilizer salts (although I haven't seen any more with the ones planted in bark and/or watered with distilled water, + allowed to dry out)

Even though I've solved the fertilizer salt problem, I now have to figure out if the yellowing leaves and slow growth has to do with the lack of drainage as Al explains it, or PH, or nutrient deficiencies, or both! lol

I'm already passed my budget on supplies, so I have to wait before I can get anything else, which means I'll be trying this mix that doesn't quite fit the standards of the "gritty mix". I'm still excited though because not having an organic medium means that I only have to worry about the nutrients and PH of the water...and I suppose the Perched Water Table possibly! but I have lots of tricks to get by that issue.

I'll be doing A LOT of experimenting and recording my results, maybe it will be of help to y'all! and maybe one day when I have an extra room to fit huge amounts of gritty mix supplies I'll be trying the real thing! :)

This post was edited by plantcrazed101 on Mon, Dec 9, 13 at 22:00
Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio
10 years ago
Please report back. The mix sounds similar to gritty mix and may work out for you. I did grow an AV in gritty mix for a few months until it was attacked by mealy bugs. The only problem with it in your set up might be that it is not designed to wick water. Good luck.
plantcrazed101
Original Author
10 years ago
I did filter the mix so that all the particles were larger than 1/8 of an inch, and re-potted several plants, so now I just have to wait and see what happens!

Several are wicked, the wick is acrylic (I think) yarn. I know it's synthetic because I've used it for several months and it hasn't rotted or anything. A while back I started noticing the fertilizer salts and it seemed to coincided my switching from mason line (very thin, nylon) to this much much thicker wick that seems to pull up more water.

My hope is that with the wick pulling up more water and these pots that are 1-2 ounces, a few 3, it will be enough to make it self-watering but with the benefits of draining well.

I watered several plants and came back a few minutes later to find that the water really does drain all the way!! So I guess I'm doing something right :)

Lava Rock or Charcaol replace parts of Gritty or 5-1-1 mix?

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Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio

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Lava Rock or Charcaol replace parts of Gritty or 5-1-1 mix?

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Ohiofem 6a/5b Southwest Ohio

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