Al's Gritty Mix for Succulents/Cacti- 1:1:1 with bark or no bark?

9 years ago

Zone 6b

After about 4-5 days immersing myself in forum posts about Al's Gritty Mix and calling poultry feed stores, John Deeres, looking at online sites for auto parts..I'm super close to getting my hands on the right ingredients! (And the sieve...) [updated the Al gritty mix by state/region forum thread:[Al gritty mix by state/region forum thread[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/supplies-by-state-region-als-gritty-mix-dsvw-vd~1390792)]

And then I suddenly remembered some other posts I read about people picking out the bark in their general big box store bought soil for cacti/succulents because..well exactly for the purpose of why it was included in Al gritty mix in the first place: it sucks in water!

Just to be extra careful..I AM suppose to include bark (uncomposted pine or fir or orchid) in the Al's 1:1:1 bark, crushed granite, turface/napa floor dry mix if I'm using it for container succulents/cacti..right? [Containers have drainage holes.]

Super generalized/noob version of purpose of Al's gritty mix:

Bark: keeps moisture

Granite: aeration, stays pretty dry

turface/napa floor dry: sucks in water really easily and lets it go really easily

Or is it a pot-by-pot basis thing, use half less bark for succulents that REALLY don't like wet feet. Or should I just not buy bark?

Featured Answer

bernardyjh

9 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Ealdwood welcome to the complex world of non-traditional potting mix for growing cacti & succulents in containers. There are alot of lot of information available in this forum regarding the vast array of different soil ingredients/components you can use, along with its attributes and benefits to porosity, water retention and aeration.

So far, I have only have tried the popular 1-1-1 gritty mix (GM) and a coarse bonsai mix (75% inorganic/25% organic soil), it's basically like your gritty mix, but was added with volcanic rocks. After encountering fungus gnats, spring tails, the death of a few plants (through rot) and a couple of excruciatingly warm summer weeks, I'm relooking into tweaking my mix (since I finished using my batch of GM as well) and watering habit to match the humidity level and temperature.

A few forum members swears by perlite, pumice and volcanic rocks as a core ingredient in their modified mixes, but so far I'm taking one step at a time and am experimenting with perlite to increase porosity in my GM.,

Trust me, you will hear ALOT of recommendations, but what works for someone growing haworthia outdoors in North Cali, might not be ideal for someone like me who leaves in the East, growing mostly Echeveria succulents indoors. So reading into recommendations are great to learn, but at the end of the day you need to find something that works best for you.

For starters, the 1-1-1 GM is good enough and works as a good standard mix for most Cacti & Succulents (key word, most, not all), until you start adopting the more "fussier" plants, you will need to do more research and reading, which is what I'm doing now.

There are a few varying factor that will require you to analyze before choosing what works best for you.

1) Knowing your C&S plant! The key is identifying them and knowing the type of roots they have, this will greatly help you to meet their needs, as some prefer more air - which means you need to have more porous ingredients or have the ingredients sift at a larger size.

Take for example, Haworthias, are monocots type plants with thick fibrous fleshy roots. These plants enjoy long deep pots with a medium that holds moisture better and a more coarser size (say about 1/8") to encourage their tap roots to thrive. More Excerpt as described by Mark/Xeno below:

"Haworthia have a long and extensive system of fleshy roots. If they are crammed into a small pot, which is likely because that's how most succulents are grown, they will be prone to damage.

The fleshy roots are best in a medium that does not dry out completely. Those thick roots need a consistent moisture level which may not be easy to accomplish especially in a cramped pot where there are greater temperature fluctuations. Remember that roots in a pot are not at all like roots in the ground - the substrate is much less stable in a pot. Roots easily get too hot or too cold, and will often just die back without you realizing.

Since these are monocots, roots are regenerated from an initiation zone at the base of the plant. This takes longer than dicots which can root more easily, in general.

I would bet the roots were gone or on their way to being gone earlier this spring, you're just seeing it now. I know this from experience. Put the plant into a new substrate without any peat, something gritty with perlite, turface, etc. Place it in a shady spot and wait. New growth probably won't come until nights are cooler in September. The temp variation outdoors is MUCH healthier than growing the plant indoors at room temp. Indoors is good for tropical plants, not so good for subtropical stuff like many succulents."

Source

I believe most regular succulents such as the Crassulaceae, echeveria family enjoy shallow pots because they encourage extensive root hairs to reach outwards horizontally instead of vertically, and shallow pots allows the mix to dry faster.

2) Choosing the right pot.

Too big, too small? Clay, plastic? Glazed, unglazed? Deep, Shallow? - Can all work differently even if you use the same soil mix for all.

Initially I started out with those cheaper plastic pots, just because they were much easier to attain and are cheaper because they came with the plants when bought. But now, almost all of my plants are in terra cotta pots because they allow good air circulation to reach the soil and roots much faster.

You have to know when growing plants, especially succulents in pots are very different from growing them in the ground. Our job is to mimic the environment as close as we can possible by meeting those conditions and it's usually tougher to master this balance.

Plants grown in the ground have their roots kept deep enough underground without constriction or limits, so temperature on the surface wouldn't greatly affect the plant's roots health. Imply that similar concept and put the same roots grown in a small 6" pot, the soil has no natural protection or have any cooling/heating agent from heat or cold. Too hot - they desiccate and fry, too cold they freeze and die too.

It's always when the roots die unsuspectingly (simply because it's hidden from the eye and usually do not show signs of stress on the foliage), we continue to water them without knowing until it's too late, and the stems/roots rot and eventually die because the plant has no more roots to take in the water we give, and sitting water, dampness = death.

3) Watering Habits

Some people grow succulents mostly for their drought tolerance potential, and have little to no time to water their plants. These people will often benefit from a more water retentive base mix, though theoretically it isn't great for the plants in the long run, but it's what works best for you matters in the end. Some people (like me), have personalities to be overbearing to their plants needs in terms of watering. To me watering sessions are the only opportunity for me to interact and inspect my plant's health, so I do it every few days to weeks during the summer, weeks to months during winter/spring.

You'll be surprised that some people on this forum face quite some problems with the GM and are in fact switching back to 50-50 perlite-peat. I believe my mix needs to be more porous than the regular GM version to match my watering habits. The reason why some members are recommending the completely inorganic route, is because organic materials decomposes, and those product creates bacteria, acting as hosts for fungus and attract pests to your plants, ultimately threats to the roots.

If you notice, the fundamental core of healthy plants all revolves around healthy roots, and this is why it is so hard to master, because it's all about creating a balance of all of the above, as well as matching your growing abilities.

I'm sorry if I didn't answer your questions directly, because at the end of the day, you have to decide what's works best for you and your plants. We only can offer what we have learnt and know from experience.

I found these articles through research, and they have been profoundly helpful for me, in terms of listing the different types of soil substrate available along with their effects/benefits, and I hope they'll do the same for you too.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1834859/informative-reading-about-soil-mixes

http://www.labs.agilent.com/botany/cacti_etc/html/soils.html

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1853340/soil-substrate-comparisons

Purposes of soil:

The soil mix provides physical support for the plant, acts as a source or
reservoir of water and nutrients, allows circulation of air to the roots
while protecting them from sun damage and desiccation. For some species
it is also important that the soil serve as thermal storage allowing the
plant to survive greater temperature extremes than it could in bare-root
form.

Natural Soil Components:

Most cacti and succulents live in soil with perhaps 3% to 5% organics.
The remainder is mineral and may include particle sizes from clay up to
boulders. Finer soils allow less air circulation and tolerate much less
water before risking root suffocation and rot. Conversely, coarser soils
require more frequent watering to avoid root death due to desiccation.

Desert soils do not experience the cultivation that worms perform in
temperate regions. Neither do they develop thick layers of humus from
which minerals and humic acids leach with each rain. Rapid surface drying
slows the breakdown of plant residues. In the Sonoran desert, carpenter
ants may be the major force for removal of surface residues. In Africa,
it is the termite. The major source of soil organics does not come from
above. It is the roots of prior plant generations.

Except for plants with seeds that must be deposited by flowing water like
the river paloverde, plants do not choose their soil. They try to survive
where they are. The soil in which they naturally survive may not be
optimal and may just be too poor to support any competitors. Not
surprisingly, there are perfect soils in which practically any plant will
do well. Such soils are so rare in nature that no species would evolve to
depend on them and no collector would perceive them as the native soil
for any particular species. Nonetheless, we can produce such soils
artificially.

Available Natural Components:

Clay particles array themselves in a fashion that stores water and
nutrients and in natural soils prevents both from sinking below the root
zone. They also pack so tightly that root aeration is compromised. As
much as 10% clay in the form of kitty litter may save mixes that would
have been too friable to hold plants upright. Clay makes the mix stick
together but must be used in moderation.

Fine sand/silt in natural soil holds moisture in narrow interparticle
spaces and wicks moisture into the root zone from the subsoil. This
service is not needed for potted plants. The particles pack too tight for
good root aeration and offer little ion exchange capability. They also do
little to support plants structurally. There is no specific need for sand
in a soil mix.

Natural gravels and pebbles improve air circulation but do not hold water
or nutrients. They are often so rounded that plants potted in pure gravel
just tip themselves out of the pot. Sometimes a little clay will hold the
mix together but pebbles are best used as a top or bottom dressing or as
the starter medium for aero-hydroponic systems.

Those who want to screen their own should discard particles under 1 mm
which would pass through the typical kitchen strainer. The 2mm to 5mm
particles which pass through 1/4" hardware cloth are useful for soil
mixes. The 5mm to 10mm pebbles which pass through 1/2' hardware cloth are
best for hydroponic use or as top dressing for large plants.

Granular diatomaceous earth looks like kitty litter and has particle
sizes from 1mm to 4 mm. It absorbs water in its pores and supports ion
exchange. It is sold as a mechanic's oil absorbent and would be a perfect
medium if it were available in coarser form. It is a great top-dressing
because it does not stick together and the surface quickly dries to
eggshell color. Even without much cohesion, its weight and wet-ability
provide good plant support.

Crushed pumice shares the same characteristics and is available in
coarser sizes. It is not cheaply available in most areas in less than
boxcar-sized loads but is the product of choice when available.
Crushed basaltic lava rock has larger vesicles and lower silica content.
The particles cut into each other providing better physical plant support
than any other medium. Lava rock is slightly soluble. Minerals leach out
making the soil more alkaline and it breaks down into smaller particles
over time. A high proportion of lava rock will cause the same problems as
will sand after enough leaching.

Peat moss is the decomposed remains of temperate bog mosses. Its fine
particle size requires moderation to avoid root suffocation. It releases
humic acids which may combat some root pathogens but in breaking down it
competes with the roots for available oxygen. As a primary component it
resists re-wetting after drying but in proportions less than 25% and when
ground with the other components through 1/4" hardware cloth re-wetting
is not a problem.

Peat moss stores water and nutrients well while providing little of its
own. It helps in physical support by holding the soil together but relies
on fine roots and fungi to assist in that task.
Peat moss is a thermal insulator and prevents plants from transferring
heat to or from the soil. Plants potted in peat moss will have lower heat
and cold resistance.

Peat moss lowers the PH of soil and is useful to compensate for lava
rock. Otherwise, one to three tablespoons of lime must be added per cubic
foot of peat moss to avoid excess acidity. Dolomitic lime is preferred to
avoid an excess of calcium compared to magnesium. Peat moss is mined from
environmentally sensitive areas with limited regenerative capacity. Many
avoid it for that reason and use the alternatives described below.

Artificial Soil Components:
Vermiculite is an expanded form of mica. It holds water and minerals well
between its layers. It tends to shrink when wet and expand when dry and
moves a lot when watered. The volume changes can be compensated by about
one gram of polyacrylamide crystals per liter. As with lava rock, the
particles break down over time. Since the surface of vermiculite dries
too fast for exposed seedlings while the depths offer too little air
circulation for most plants, it should be used sparingly, no more than
25% of the mix.

Rock wool is derived from a mixture of ground stone which is melted, spun
and compacted. It holds water and minerals well but slowly releases
alkali like lava rock. Its fine pore size may suffocate roots except
where the smallest cubes of rock-wool are used for seedlings. In
hydroponic use, larger plants are allowed to arrange their roots on the
surface of a rock-wool slab while plant support is provided from above.
Bulk rock wool looks like grey cotton and can be used in soil mixes. The
chunks do tend to stick together and aggregate. Breaking them down
through a 1/4" mesh screen embeds a multitude of fine fibers in one's
skin. There are many better alternatives to rock-wool in a mix.

Perlite is an expanded silica. It is slightly porous, offering some water
and mineral storage capacity. It provides good plant support when wet or
dry but tends to suspend itself during watering. It will let a plant fall
over but will stiffen up when the water drains out. It will also float up
through a top-dressing. The main value of perlite is its support for air
circulation while also distributing water well through surface wicking.
Many plants grow well in straight perlite with hydroponic feeding. A pot
or tub of perlite can water itself via a fiber wick extending into a
vessel of hydroponic solution. Perlite is an excellent bottom dressing to
prevent potted plants from wicking up too much moisture from drainage
saucers. Some sources of perlite have high alkali content, mostly
potassium and will raise soil PH over time.

There is also a styrofoam product called styromull with characteristics
similar to perlite. Some European experts recommend it but it does not
appear to be available in the Americas.

The three products described above are thermal insulators having the same
limitation described for peat moss.

Baked clay spheres or extrusions which are collectively called grow-rocks
in the hydroponic trade provide drainage and air circulation and store
significant amounts of moisture and minerals. They are too coarse to use
in other than hydroponic systems and most are too smooth to provide good
plant support. A variant made of expanded shale avoids those limitations
and is the equal to pumice. These products are of little value in low
concentrations, becoming expensive pebbles and are too expensive to use
in quantity unless one has a local manufacturer. As with the natural
mineral products, shipping costs far exceed the initial cost of the
material.

As an alternative to peat moss, one can use mixed compost or composted
bark chips. Mixed compost may contain manure, fallen leaves, grass
clippings, agricultural residue, recycled newspaper and/or sawmill
residue. Most are well composted and can be used like peat moss but
without the re-wetting problem.

One superior product called "America's Choice" was long-fiber sawmill
residue. The long fibers provided plant support but were coarse enough to
avoid packing down and suffocating roots. Alas, Wal-Mart no longer offers
it. Perhaps some of the list members can find alternate sources.

Bark chips have a much lower surface to volume ratio. They offer good
drainage and can be used in high concentrations without suffocating
roots. They do not offer good support and slide over each other easily
but are much less likely to float up than perlite. Eastern sources of
bark have predominantly 1cm and larger particle sizes while western
sources are below 1 cm. One can screen it and use the same particle sizes
as were recommended for gravel. Bark is not fully composted. It releases
humic acids slowly so that little lime is needed to regulate PH but it
can absorb significant amounts of nitrogen from the soil mix during its
initial breakdown. One can add a tablespoon of dolomite per cubic foot
and 2% to 3% by dry weight of nitrogen in some soluble form to a dampened
mix and let it re-compost a few weeks before use.

Favorite Mixes (FLAME BAIT):

My favorite mix for aero-hydroponic use is equal parts of pea gravel and
bark chips which will pass through 1/2" hardware cloth but not 1/4"
hardware cloth.

My current favorite mix for daily watering with hydroponic solution is
equal parts of granular diatomaceous earth, perlite and screened bark
chips. All pass through 1/4" hardware cloth but not through a 1mm screen.

My favorite mix for gift plants which will be watered irregularly with
our local alkaline water contains equal parts of peat moss, vermiculite,
perlite and granular diatomaceous earth with 1/2 tsp of polyacrylamide
crystals, one tablespoon of Osmocote pellets and two tablespoons of bone
meal per gallon of mix. The mix goes through 1/4" hardware cloth just to
break up the lumps.
The

Future:
Please post your opinions if you disagree with any of the above. Describe
any products that you use which are not included. Also post your favorite
mixes which will be used to adjust the recommended ranges for ingredients
and combined into a recommendation which allows for locally available
alternative ingredients.

Happy Growing,

Bernard

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Comments (38)

rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
9 years ago
Just to share what I do - I pretty much stopped using bark in gritty. My reason was - difficult to source mostly, just about all too big, too much sapwood (I don't like how it looks and picking it is a pain...)

I use grit, perlite and turface. Seldom, I may add very little coir. I would use scoria, pumice and/or growstones if I could find them. Many ppl use bark and their mixes work well and look great (whatever I can find I save for 511).

Rina
0
ewwmayo
9 years ago
I live in the same region as Rina and have the same expensive/lots of work issue with bark.

It is not necessarily required and I do recommend customizing the mix and for your specific plant species and growing needs.
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thechinski
9 years ago
I've used bark in all my mixes until recently. I've done a few pots without the bark because for me the bark is the most work to prepare (I have to crush it all by hand) and so far I haven't noticed any difference between the different mixes.

My understanding is the bark acts as a filler, if cheap to source, and also a very slight source of nutrients as it does decompose very slowly. However I've read it's water retention is somewhere between the turface and grit, so removing it shouldn't affect the overall water retention of the mix (although the bark does hold it a little longer than turface i think?). Also, because it is the only component that is organic it does need to be replaced, but not often at all. By removing it you can make your mix entirely reuseable and last forever, but fertilising will become a much more prominent issue. Personally, I like the look it gives the mix, and it gives me some peace of mind knowing I have something more than just rocks in my mix, even if I know in theory my fertiliser gives the plants all they need ;) In future I'll probably stick to including it in my mix if I can be bothered to crush it up, but I certainly haven't any issues in the pots I have without bark.

hope this helps! Please correct me if anythings incorrect :)

Thabks!
andy_e
9 years ago
I think you can safely go without the bark.

Some of us are finding that in large pots, 1:1:1 gritty mix retains water for too long. I certainly wouldn't go over 1/3 Turface/Floor Dry if you remove the bark.

Experiment and see how it goes before committing all your plants.
0
nomen_nudum
9 years ago
Some (more than a few) tropical succulents (cacti) will do fine in a bark based mix A more general succulent type that's of interest to you may help sort out which 1- 1- 1 is more realistic
0
bikerdoc5968 Z6 SE MI
9 years ago
For those who want bark, I use a combination of CHC (Coconut husk chips), fir bark and New Zealand bark (see picture). There is NO sap wood in any of the bark. I get it from Roberts Flower Supply in Ohio. Personally, I have never found a better source for this product at a reasonable price. In the picture: L-NZ bark, M-CHC, R-Pine/Fir bark

Robert's Flower Supply
Ben was 10a/26, now 7a/34
9 years ago
It depends where you are and what you can source, but at least some form of organic component is good to have on hand. Not every plant needs organics, but many succulents do grow in xeric grasslands or xeric forests where they would encounter at least some organic soil component. IMO, unless you can find barks like bikerdoc's, I wouldn't use bark. Coir or coconut husk pieces (kind of a difference in texture prefer ce at that point - personally I think coir breaks down easier that CHP, and gets more microfrays, allowing it to absorb more water...anyway) are very good organic components. I use coir in all of my soil mixes.
ealdwood (10a)
Original Author
9 years ago
Hmmmmm...! Gosh thank you everyone for the great input, so glad I asked first in this forum. I think I'll use perlite for the really water intolerant ones. I might just use some of my MG cactus/succulent soil for the ones that need more water.

@rina_: I'm not very familiar with this sapwood you mentioned, It looks like it's the outer part versus heartwood, why is it undesirable in soil mixes? How would one filter it out? Using a sieve? I'm relieved you said you're using perlite because I still got half a bag left that I can use now. (Yes!)

@ewwmayo: I didn't really look further than Reptibark, but now I'm starting to see that there's all types of bark and some of them seem difficult to find/expensive..and yeah I did read about how some of the bark had to be crushed. Which is probably super difficult to do...like smashing a plastic bag of that bark with a rolling pin and not seeing any difference type of difficult..

@thechinski: I have the same concerns about nutrients! With just crushed granite..diatomaceous earth or calcined clay...and volcanic glass (wow perlite.. really?)..I would have to rely on my MG Liquid Cactus Food. Some of the cacti/succulents I acquired do certainly in the wild live in arid nutrient-poor..dusty..places with no bark whatsoever. But then some others I've seen flourishing in humid tropical-ish places (and suffer a lot when I don't water them in time) so I'm sure they don't mind some water retentive bark.

@andy_e: thanks for that tip! I've never worked with turface/floor dry so I'll be sure to keep it at the 1/3 proportion. So scared of experimenting but really I just have to try it out to learn. Most of my pots are pretty small...this might be the only reason why I might get bark.

@nomen-nudum: Yeah, I have some more water-tolerating succulents that I could try the bark version on. The thing is that sometimes I forget which one is less tolerating of water...sigh.

@bikerdoc5968: Do you mix those three in equal parts into the 1/3 proportion of the 1:1:1 mix? Do you use the other two because pine/fir is too water retentive?
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ewwmayo
9 years ago
ealdwood, for the pickier succulents I just increase the amount of grit. This reduces the amount of water the mix holds. Since you're 6b, I'm assuming things will at least be inside for the winter, so you may want to aim towards a less water-retentive combination.

Cactus & succulent soil is vastly more water retentive than gritty mix could ever be, but with the great big downsides of perched water, lack of aeration, and difficulty to re-wet once dry. I don't think it's so suitable, even for tropical cacti that nomen mentions. For those, I'm trying out a C&S soil / large perlite mix that Rina has suggested to me. Others are using bark only.

Reptibark cost me $32 for 24QTs. I bought a cheap blender to chop it into smaller bits. You can also put it in a bag and smash it on your driveway. Depending on your personality, this may be stress-relieving or stress-inducing.
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rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
9 years ago
I borrowed photo from this thread click here

The sapwood are those lighter-colored, straight pieces; some bagged bark contains less, some much more. One has to pick it to get rid of.
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bikerdoc5968 Z6 SE MI
9 years ago
Currently I mix approximately equal parts fine fir/pine bark and New Zealand bark with a small amount of CHC. The reason being, as stated above, CHC hold moisture but it is light weight so pots aren't as heavy. I don't know that I proportion my mix 1:1:1. I use #3 perlite, Diatomite, granite, Growstone® and bark. And now that I got my bag of pumice, I will be adding this and seeing how things go. I just toss it together and see how it looks.

This is my current mix.
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penfold2
9 years ago
Howard, that looks excellent. One thing that sticks out to me is not so much the materials in your mix, but the particle size. I'm finding that my Turface/granite mix is too fine for many plants. Turface (even when sifted) seems to be too small, and becomes more problematic when used as 50% or more of the mix. Your mix seems to be on the other end of the spectrum. Do you find any problems with the large particle size? I imagine you have to water quite a bit.

I recently repotted a plant in straight ~1/4" pumice, and it seems to be doing better so far. It requires more water, but I imagine the increased porosity is creating a much healthier root system. The only problem is that pumice is quite expensive if you don't live on the west coast. Diatomite and other hydro/orchid mediums seem to be equally expensive. Maybe it wouldn't be so bad if I cut them with coarse perlite and granite. I really wish there were a 1/4" version of Turface, though.

-Chris
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bikerdoc5968 Z6 SE MI
9 years ago
Chris, no question I water plants in this mix more frequently but with my heavy handed watering I'm saving plants from rot. I don't use Turface for the very reason you mention. The size is too small and it packs down. Even the Diatomite I use has to be sifted to remove the small stuff.
ehuns27 7a PA
9 years ago
Looks like I am a little late to the potting mix party but I thought I would share my opinion as well. I have pretty easy access to bark in my area but I choose to exclude it from my mix. I didn't like how wet the bark stayed, especially in pots that were plastic or glazed. The bark also sometimes floats to the top much like perlite. I use a similar mix now as Rina. I mix half turface and half granite and then add in a little bit of perlite. I like the way it looks and the amount of moisture control I get from it. I sift all of my ingredients so that that particle sizes are all larger than 1/16. They end up all being about the same size.

Here is a picture of the mix I am currently using.

-Erica
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
9 years ago
I use more perlite, Erica. Usually 1/3rd of the mix - never less actually. I use less turface sometimes, but equal amounts of perlite and grit.

I do sift out small particles of perlite and turface.

Rina
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jalcon
9 years ago
Certainly not saying Al's mix isn't great. Many people seem to get amazing results...But for me, regular miracle grow cactus mix has far superior results for my jade plants.

I have 5 jade plants. Two in the MG cactus mix, and three in the 1-1-1 gritty mix. The one's in the gritty mix are just fine, and healthy. Put on new growth here and there.

But the one's in the MG cactus mix, grow like weeds, and overall are more healthy in appearance.

Just my experience, of course YMMV.
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bernardyjh
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Jalcon, when you get a chance to repot - you find in comparison, root growth for the plant in gritty mix will astound you, you probably won't have that much luck for the plant in miracle grow soil.

Plants do that a while to establish themselves in the Gritty Mix, but once it does, the foilage will eventually explode. Then again, it goes back to what works best for you.
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jalcon
9 years ago
How long does that take? All six have been in their pots for at least 18 months, haha.
bernardyjh
9 years ago
I accidentally knock over one of my plants a couple weeks ago, and I was delightedly surprised to find a bundle of white roots in just 2 short months.

I'm sure your plants in the GM have an extensive network of roots by now.
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nomen_nudum
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Jalcon You mentioned that the parts you see look healthy. The point some of us try to make is.. Are the roots healthy in that bag of MG C&S soil ? Do you really think your roots can handle an accidental pot tip like the one bernardyjh talks about.
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andy_e
9 years ago
You can have perfectly healthy plants using MG or other bagged soils. Peat-based mixes are not objectively bad for plants. You just have to know what you're doing.
rina_Ontario,Canada 5a
9 years ago
a very important sentence: "You just have to know what you're doing."

Majority of ppl don't have enough knowledge - just saying...

Rina
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ealdwood (10a)
Original Author
9 years ago
@Ben: Hmm okay, I think I'll have to dig deeper/wait longer to find local courses for CHC or coir...although I think I remember lowes/HD selling something for orchid growers..but probably too little/expensive. I'm trying not to go online to buy stuff since I'm not very experienced yet and I'll probably overpay for something.

@ewwmayo: Huh...there is a price difference. I was going to say that I read somewhere that the small and medium bags of Reptibark tend to have smaller pieces but the largest size is probably more worth it. : D lol i was imagining driving over the bag but that actually might not do anything...hammer perhaps? Thanks! I will def remember to increase the granite for more difficult succulents/cacti.

@ehuns27: those particle sizes look really good! especially the perlite...all my perlite and bark float to the top too...and I didn't sieve out the small perlite so it's a mess. I didn't know there were different sized perlite until bikerdoc mentioned that...the one I get from Lowes is so sandy..

@bernardyjh: thank you for the warm welcome! I feel a lot better after reading about everyone's experiences with these ingredients. And thank you for the links/sources, it's helpful having a quick guide to the effect of each ingredient!!

I didn't have the same problem as David with his haworthia losing roots but I recently severely damaged a haworthia that was actually doing really well (had around 5-6 little ones growing) so I thought it could take anything so I wasn't careful when I was watering it and I think I left water in the leaves. And it was in a tall-ish pot (taller than 5 inches) because I noticed/learned that haworthias have these crazy big roots.

The mix was 50/50 perlite/ MG CS&S soil, anyways the pups nearer the soil/pea gravel started looking bad (like yellow) and some of the lower leaves looked strange and then I finally smelled rot. That's when I panicked and dug it out and yes it was starting to have root rot on the main root part with the lowest leaves.

Sigh...I'm trying to save it but I'm not sure it's alive still since the rot was quite serious and I couldn't tell how bad the main root(s) were affected. I let the original soil and the haworthia dry out (for the haworthia I tried to take all the rot out but was hesitant of loping the entire root off) and placed it back (temporarily since I'm looking to replace all my soil now with the grity mix).

@jalcon Some of my plants are doing really well in MG CS&S soil but they're definitely the hardier type, like crassula perforata (string of buttons), anacampseros rufescens, graptosedum (california sunset/bronze)..etc.

@andy_e, rina_, it can be hard to tell what's going on inside the pot until it's too late! ; _ ;

In case anyone's interested in chicken grit sources in MA I updated the Al gritty mix by state/region forum thread again:[Al gritty mix by state/region forum thread[(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/supplies-by-state-region-als-gritty-mix-dsvw-vd~1390792)] I'm lucky someone at work raises chickens for fun...
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bernardyjh
9 years ago
Ealdwood - not trying to derail your thread.

But you can read more about root pruning for Haws here

- http://jacculents.tumblr.com/post/109584995116/roots-cutting-is-extremely-important-for#notes

and

- http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/3063693/haworthia-losing-its-green-and-browning-too-much-or-too-little-water

When there's rot, you MUST amputate any affect portion of the plant ASAP, else it will destroy and deteriorate the entire plant.
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ewwmayo
9 years ago
When you get perlite, sifting is very important! The bags from HD/garden centers/nurseries are all the same and filled with a large percentage of dust. One of the best places is a local hydroponics store - not only are the pieces much bigger, but the bags are bigger for less money.

Aside: Thanks Rina! You were right, hydroponics stores are 100% better for perlite.
bikerdoc5968 Z6 SE MI
9 years ago
Agree with the above. I have never purchased perlite from a BBS but I have felt the bags and it feels like very small particles. I didn't know about hydro stores. I have been getting my perlite from an orchid vendor who purchase it in bulk and bags up different volume bags. He has different sized particles, also, from very small to to ¾". There is usually very little dust and therefor I don't screen the product. I have two bags currently; one is almost used and the other is a full bag. I shake the bag and most of the dust settles to the bottom leaving the larger particles on top. These are ½ cu ft bags.
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ewwmayo
9 years ago
Whoa! That's some nice looking perlite in the top photo. Is the orchid vendor just a family run business or similar? Maybe I should start asking around to find even better perlite.

Based on what I've bought previously from BBS, it looks like maybe the bottom 1/5 of your second bag there.
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bikerdoc5968 Z6 SE MI
9 years ago
Both bags are the same. I've just use most of the first bag. It is a family run orchid business . This is where I get my bark and othe mix items. He has bigger bags of perlite. You could do a group purchase and divide it up saving on the postage.
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ealdwood (10a)
Original Author
9 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
@bernardyjh

Wow I would never have thought about cutting thick roots, even the ones in the pictures looked healthy. I actually have a haworthia (attenuata?...no..it's something else, zebra thing) that has crazy long roots like those but really isn't growing much. I might do something about it but I don't think they're dark colored.

Yeah..for my other haworthia the rot was pretty bad and I took off the pups that were affected and the lower leaves, but I was afraid I was going to give it an early death sentence if I just cut off the whole thing at the main single root. So I let it "dry" out which I don't think was a great idea either (because I read on this thread the roots like to be kept slightly above avg moist). I'm not even sure if I should traumatize it again by re-potting it into a gritty mix now since it was doing well in the MG/perlite mix (until I over-watered it).

@ewwmayo

Hydroponics! I should have checked this thread...looks like there are a couple stores around. I went and bought another bag from Lowes. And yeah they definitely do look like the lower 1/5 of those bags.

@bikerdoc5968

And even the good sized ones are only about as big as the middle part of the bag. But should be okay for now...as long as they don't mush up together.
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bernardyjh
9 years ago
Ealdwood, I'm sorry to hear about your haws. Usually for Haws, once their tap roots are exposed for a prolonged period of time, they start sending signals to the plant to go dormant. I believe the attenuata species are more hardy to heat and roots are less sensitive compared to the fleshier leaved Haws like cooperi or retusa.

You also have to know, now is the season they go dormant due to the heat. They just shut down, and sometimes cannibalize their roots if they need the energy to conserve and hibernate. Come fall when the weather cools, they will spur back into an active state.

I haven't watered my retusa for the 3rd month now. It's just sitting in the pot chilling. It has cannibalized one of its pups, but I'm going to wait for the weather cool down before I repot it.

When your plant is dormant, disturbed or stress, best to keep dry - moisture will just rot it further because the plant signal its roots to stop taking in water.

I personally think it's always ok to inspect root health when plants are stressed, especially if you are unsure of its state. It's best to catch problems early than regret when it's too late to save your plant. Until you think the plant is doing better, its best to let them recover.
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ewwmayo
9 years ago
Bernard, I agree that H. attenuata is more hardy to heat and light than H. cooperi and H. retusa. My H. attenuata is doing very well, despite the crazy heat, and just sent a flowering spike up yesterday. I have been watering it quite frequently, since it's in a small pot of gritty mix.

For a while, my H. cooperi was sort of limping along in the heat, barely being able to stay hydrated after repotting in gritty mix. After maybe 2-3 weeks, it finally established and the pups are growing well.

My H. mirabilis ssp mundula (which is kind of like a H. retusa) was repotted a month ago in gritty mix and it's still not fully established. It is a bigger clump and seems to need quite a lot of water on my roof. I think bigger plants/clumps are trickier to balance when stressed because the larger pots end up wetter for longer and perhaps there's less "forgiveness" in over/under watering.

Will keep you posted on an actual H. retusa as the weeks go by. I repotted mine into gritty mix just a couple of days ago and it's being kept inside until next week. After that, I expect another week or two before it's ready to grow.
mariec_6a
7 years ago
You'd use growstone if you could find them? Here:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00I8J1XJC/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1
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xerophyte NYC
7 years ago
I've been using a 50:50 base mix of perlite/ turface for many years. You can easily modify this mix for different needs.

Most mesembs benefit from the addition of a clayey component. For me, I just dig beyond the topsoil in my yard for some good dirt. I also substitute perlite for some lava rock and small pebbles. It's a heavier, longer lasting mix which works when repotting infrequently for mesembs. This same mix is my preference for small cactus species like Aztekium, Blossfeldia, tricky mamms like luethyi, etc.

"bigger" plants like some Crassula, aloes, aeonium etc. you could add more perlite to lighten big pots. It also makes it safer to leave outdoors all spring/summer/fall with rain. My palms, plumeria and cycads live in this mix too.

Floating perlite is not an issue. But it does easily displace with high water pressure like from a hose.

Some form of fertilizer is a must.

I'm also a fan of submerging small pots with small plants into bigger, deeper containers to help stabilize root temperatures. Practically any healthy plant I've ever had to repot always has roots circling the bottom. I really don't understand the concept of shallow or regular pots. I think the deeper the better. I haven't really noticed any exception. For some species it's mandatory. Haworthias, many cactus plants with tuberous roots. Even Lithops which tolerate a shallow home will grow much better in very deep pots. Pleiospilos too.

For anyone unsure or unconvinced, try an experiment. Take a pot with any plant you want, and bury it into much deeper pot for a growing season. Pull it out later and see what you find.

Bury an Aloe, pachypodium or most any strong Echeveria or similar in the garden and watch it take off.

We would all be great at bonsai, plenty good experience with root constriction and limiting growth lol!
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bernardyjh
7 years ago
@Xero You're back on the forums!! Do you have a pm I can reach you? I have some questions on growing mesembs, cause we both live in the same zone, want to ask for pointers on how to winter, or more like summer them. My plants are always hanging by the thread when they are dormant.
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ewwmayo
7 years ago
X - Got any favourite small but deep pots for succulents? I like the deep cylindrical pots with flared mouths for Haworthia/Echeveria (very popular in Asia) but the circular shape annoys me because it doesn't fit nicely. I'm already using imported deeper rectangular pots - even deeper would be better of course.

Would be using much bigger pots than I am now but there is only so much space indoors for the winter! Roots fill up the deep pots too and then it's impossible to fit them back in the small ones, haha. (Hope that wasn't a spoiler)
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xerophyte NYC
7 years ago
B: markymarkny@gmail.com

ewwmayo: the smallest deep pot I use are plastic 2.5x3.5ish but l much prefer the 6x8.5s. I will put multiple plants into the bigger ones, usually they are first set into a small 2x2 square with substrate all the way to the top and plants with the necks exposed, then buried into the big pots. 4 small squares comfortably fit into the 6x8.5.

It doesn't stop there. I use black plastic trays to carry multiple pots, and those trays will be filled w an inch or so of any soil that's laying around. The 6x8s are on top. Turface fills in the sides. I can keep things growing this way for years. For repotting just tease out the pot and do the deed.

I try to lump them in group. Small S American cactus in a tray. They can take more cold and less sun. N Americans in another, they take more heat/ sun. Etc.
ewwmayo
7 years ago
X - Thanks! I'm also using 2.5x3.5. Next size up is 3.5x3.5, although I am waiting to get some 3.5x5 when the arrive from overseas.

6x8.5 is huge! Don't think I could manage that well indoors - almost everything that size I've sold off due to space constraints. Can see how that would be very nice to grow with them stuck together. =)

Been spending a large part of my winter trying to figure out how to get many plants into deeper pots without losing too much space...
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