Is Al's gritty mix or 5-1-1 mix really any better than other mixes?
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7 years ago
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Laura LaRosa (7b)
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agoRelated Discussions
Al,something I have always wondered about the gritty and 5.1.1mix
Comments (4)Somewhere around 20 years ago, I was at a business meeting in Chicago. I had arrived Thu night for Fri-Sat meetings and was bored, so wandered around the hotel. I soon discovered that there was also a bonsai convention being set up, which was to begin on Fri. I was amazed at the beauty of the little trees, so asked if I could observe. Permission was granted with the proviso I stay out of the way. I decided that day that I had to learn how to grow those wonderful little trees. I came home and soon stumbled on an adult education flier that offered a 1 day bonsai workshop. I paid my fee & soon had a little garden juniper, perfectly ripe for the killing. I stumbled around in total darkness for that entire summer before realizing I knew nothing about soils or keeping plants alive in containers, but that knowledge was prerequisite, so I set the plants aside and hit the books. I studied bonsai techniques and the art itself, but mostly I concentrated on physiology and soil science. After 4-5 years of what I think was pretty diligent studying, I had learned enough about plants and soils that, to my great happiness, I was able to keep plants alive and healthy in containers. I was using 'bonsai' soil that was commercially made, and little better than other heavy 'from-the-bag' soils that were available. About the only thing that set it apart was it's gritty mineral components. I discovered and joined a local club, and primarily through my bonsai magazines, gradually became exposed to a wide variety of potential soil ingredients. As I continued to study and gain a better understanding of how soils work and how various combinations of ingredients affected the end product, I started experimenting with various combinations of ingredients. I learned early on that soils intended to hold plant material for extended periods needed to be very durable. I was still operating under the illusion that container soils had to be nearly all organic or they wouldn't work. I soon discovered that was nowhere near true. It was a combination of trial and error, reading what others were doing, and experimenting, using what I had learned about soil science that helped me up with the idea of combining an ingredient that was large enough that it held very little perched water but still held plenty of water in internal pores (screened Turface) with an ingredient on the opposite end of the spectrum - granite, which holds no water internally - only on its surface. The bark, though it offers some nutrition as it slowly breaks down was an excellent compliment to the other two ingredients because it offered a filler that held about the same volume of water as the average between the Turface and granite, and because it was plentiful and cheap; plus, it fit the durability requirement better than any other commonly found organic component, as long as I limited the organic fraction (bark) to 1/3 of the whole or less. Each of the ingredients in the gritty mix is actually carefully chosen. Particle size, the ability to hold/not hold water, expense, availability (for me) were all carefully considered as I settled on the ingredients and ratio. I've been using the gritty mix for about 15 years, and haven't found a way to improve it yet. With the number of people I stay in contact with in the bonsai community, it's easy to imagine there were a lot of materials that could have been substituted for one of the 3 primary ingredients or added to the trio. Many were tried, then discounted, and I still prefer the equal parts of fir bark:Turface:grit to anything else. I guess to answer your question directly, about how long it took me to come up with the gritty mix, I'd say it was about 5 years before it came together, but I was still learning a lot in the first 4 years. As far as the gritty mix being perfect, it may not be, for everyone; but the nice thing about it is it's flexible/adjustable for different locales and plant material by simply changing the ratio of Turface:grit slightly. The same is basically true of the 5:1:1 mix - it's flexible. My interest in bonsai also sparked a keen interest in growing a wide variety of other plant material in containers. Since I recognized the difficulty presented by the high level of water retention in almost all from-the-bag soils, and I had already witnessed the superb results from the highly aerated gritty mix, not to mention the fact that the gritty mix is more expensive than bagged soils, it wasn't long before I was tinkering with pine bark, peat, and perlite. I saw that nurseries were growing woody material in mixes with pine bark, so I should be able to grow my veggies and pretty/flowery stuff in some sort of concoction with pine bark as the primary ingredient. Having already settled on the gritty mix, I knew just what I wanted to achieve with the 5:1:1 mix, so that was easy. A few years after I started using the 5:1:1 mix, I started sharing how well it works here. You might not believe me when I tell you that JaG was one of the loudest dissenters, and couldn't imagine how soils with that much air could possibly be better than from-the-bag soils. He'll tell you that himself, and mentions it frequently. (I miss his being around). It took a couple of years of often very strong debate before he tried it and saw there really was a stark difference in results between a highly aerated soils vs those heavier and water retentive. Now he's a strong proponent of highly aerated soils. I was actually afraid to tell the forum about the gritty mix, because it was such a radical departure from what everyone on this forum was used to growing in that not one person would ever have believed you could grow in a soil that was 2/3 gravel and 1/3 large bark chunks. Honestly - I had to wait until I had earned enough credibility before I could even tell you that I grow lots of perfectly healthy plants in the stuff. It's much easier to open minds when there is more than a singular voice crying in the wilderness. ;o) Let's see ...... what drew me here? I think it was originally because I was doing a LOT of searching for info on the internet and GW kept coming up. After a few hundred GW hits, I guess I started to explore and ended up joining. The bonsai forum wasn't much fun because there was (still is) constant fighting, so I ended up here. I had also joined several clubs, and had often been invited to talk about different aspects of gardening. I talk most often about soils and things related to container gardening, but I also do presentations about pruning and hormones, propagation, repotting ..... I do bonsai demos and lead various workshops, too. I look at all of that as a natural extension of my love for growing/nurturing plants, so I guess it's not so unusual that you have to put up with me here. Whew! That took a lot longer than I thought it would. It was a really, really hectic weekend, so it's time for bed. Thanks for your interest, Mike - if you're still awake. ;-) TTYL Al...See Moremodified Al's Gritty Mix and 5.1.1 mix
Comments (12)Around here the pine bark mix at Home Depot that works is the #302 Golden Trophy bags. I've been using this for the last 4 or 5 years. The only problem is that the #302 bags vary significantly from pallet to pallet. You need to check an open bag and make sure. If the chunks are small then the entire pallet is probably OK. If not the bags in the entire pallet is not usable. I got burned this year in my first buy and had to unload all the bags to someone's in ground garden (after a harsh winter I wasn't thinking straight :-). The bags were wet and the chunks seemed small after a quick inspection but after getting them home they stunk (which I heard was not good) and had a lot of sticks and bigger chunks hidden in them. A week later I went to a different Home Depot and found a pallet of perfect #302 pine bark and loaded up as many bags that will fit into the van. A couple of years ago the good pallet of #302 was behind a bad pallet which required me to climb over the bad pallet to get to the good pallet. The employees at Home Depot must have thought I was nuts. Last year I found #302 Golden Trophy at Menards with the same pallet to pallet differences but this year Menards doesn't seem to carry it....See More5-1-1 vs gritty mix newbe to potting mixes
Comments (1)Let me make a suggestion, please? Follow the link I left below to gain a better understanding of the difference between the gritty mix and the 5:1:1 mix, and a better understanding of how water behaves in container soils. I think gaining an understanding of that (the water:air relationship in soils) is probably the largest step forward a container gardener can take at any one time. Al Here is a link that might be useful: C'mon - I'll take you to what he's talking about....See MoreAny Adaptation Of Gritty Mix or 5:1:1 Suitable for Photinia Red Robin?
Comments (11)I am happy to address some of your issues but the Container Gardening forum is not likely to get you much additional input. What is going on with your shrubs has nothing to do with any issues pertaining to container gardening or using or replacing with container soil mixes. If you find my comments not fully helpful, I'd strongly suggest you repost this in the Shrubs or even the Soils and Compost forum. Redtip photinias, Photinia x fraseri, is known to be tolerant of clay soils - in fact it is included on lists of plants recommended for clay. So I doubt the issues with your plants are confined to their being planted in clay. Unless the clay does not drain adequately. And as you indicate the hedge is established for privacy, I am assuming they have been in place for some time so you would have noticed drainage problems - like puddling or standing water for periods of time - before now. It is seldom practical or cost effective to remove and replace soil. And typically unnecessary as well. One amends the soil, adding to existing soil whatever amendments/soil additives may be necessary to affect improvement. With clay, that usually means adding the generous quantities of organic matter I mentioned in my previous post, to both lighten or loosen the soil and improve drainage. Using these products as a topdressing can help but it is not as efficient a method or as fast as incorporating the OM into the existing soil. Unfortunately, that means you need to remove the current hedge to do so. As an aside, if you were to replace the soil, you would need to do the same thing, so I am assuming you are not adverse to that. FWIW, if that's the plan, I'd consider some alternatives to the redtips, perhaps even one of the California native plants commonly used for hedging, as they tend to be well-adapted to both your climate (and drought) and native soil conditions, including pH.. And will generally have less issues than the redtips, which are plagued by some serious disease issues that are significantly reducing their suitability for landscape plantings in much of the US. Your plants are definitely stressed - the mites and the chlorosis are clear indications. The clay may or may not have much of a bearing on this - it's almost impossible to say for certain without seeing the plants and the site in person. It could just as well be that these particular shrubs are just not well suited to your situation. One thing I would suggest is to bring in a horticulturist for an onsite consultation - your extension service or better garden center should be able to give you some referrals. These folks are experienced and skilled in evaluating plants for both siting and cultural issues as well as diagnosing insects, diseases and nutrient problems. I know these sorts of folks exist as this is a significant part of what I do for a living :-) If you do care to repost on another, more relevant forum, please include photos of the entire hedge and at least one plant in its entirety, as well as any detail photos. The more we know about the situation, as limited as that might be just via photos, the better the advice you will receive. And include exactly where you are located and how these plants are watered and the frequency....See MoreUser
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agoUser
7 years agogardengal48 (PNW Z8/9)
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoUser
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agoUser
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agoUser
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agoUser
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agoUser
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agohobbyartisan (Saskatoon, SK Canada, 2b)
7 years agojane__ny
7 years agogreenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
7 years agoNil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)
7 years agogreenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
7 years agoLarry (Los Angeles, 10a, Sunset Zone 19)
7 years agolast modified: 7 years agogreenman28 NorCal 7b/8a
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Nil13 usda:10a sunset:21 LA,CA (Mount Wash.)