hello mike glad ur around : ) , well yes indeed the grit would'nt be no prob : ) , but the turface was or maybe still is the prob : ( , upon what said looked up and called PEP BOYS , WESTERN AUTO and AUTOZONE , all auto part stores here and this is what i found thrifty sorb: http://moltan.com/Products/Flyers/Thrifity_Clay_flyers_10.pdf http://moltan.com/msds/MSDS%20pdf/MSDS_Clay_Thrifty-Sorb.pdf ********************* oil dry : http://oildri.net/Downloads/OD%20Granular.pdf http://oildri.net/Downloads/MSDS_1003000Aug11.pdf *************** and this oil absorbent found at AUTOZONE , its only name was OIL ABSOBENT ( didnt take a pic of the front of bag , but took this pic of the ingredients ) http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k542/tecnico5/Photo0056.jpg please check them did not put in the link section cause they were 4 links : ( , so have any one used this options instead of turface , which by the way the only company that has it here only works the GREEN and the PRO LEAGUE , which have read and Al also says is to small for the gritty mix , and called the company TURFACE where they make the product and told me they could send me a single MVP bag but the cost would be tooooo muchhh pricey :'( , they gave me the price but with that cost price of only the shipping it would be various $$$$$$ so not an option buy the 50 lb bag via them : ( , so woul appreciate if any have used this products as turface subsitute , and could tell me which could be a better option : / , hope Al also checks them : )

Somewhere around 20 years ago, I was at a business meeting in Chicago. I had arrived Thu night for Fri-Sat meetings and was bored, so wandered around the hotel. I soon discovered that there was also a bonsai convention being set up, which was to begin on Fri. I was amazed at the beauty of the little trees, so asked if I could observe. Permission was granted with the proviso I stay out of the way. I decided that day that I had to learn how to grow those wonderful little trees. I came home and soon stumbled on an adult education flier that offered a 1 day bonsai workshop. I paid my fee & soon had a little garden juniper, perfectly ripe for the killing. I stumbled around in total darkness for that entire summer before realizing I knew nothing about soils or keeping plants alive in containers, but that knowledge was prerequisite, so I set the plants aside and hit the books. I studied bonsai techniques and the art itself, but mostly I concentrated on physiology and soil science. After 4-5 years of what I think was pretty diligent studying, I had learned enough about plants and soils that, to my great happiness, I was able to keep plants alive and healthy in containers. I was using 'bonsai' soil that was commercially made, and little better than other heavy 'from-the-bag' soils that were available. About the only thing that set it apart was it's gritty mineral components. I discovered and joined a local club, and primarily through my bonsai magazines, gradually became exposed to a wide variety of potential soil ingredients. As I continued to study and gain a better understanding of how soils work and how various combinations of ingredients affected the end product, I started experimenting with various combinations of ingredients. I learned early on that soils intended to hold plant material for extended periods needed to be very durable. I was still operating under the illusion that container soils had to be nearly all organic or they wouldn't work. I soon discovered that was nowhere near true. It was a combination of trial and error, reading what others were doing, and experimenting, using what I had learned about soil science that helped me up with the idea of combining an ingredient that was large enough that it held very little perched water but still held plenty of water in internal pores (screened Turface) with an ingredient on the opposite end of the spectrum - granite, which holds no water internally - only on its surface. The bark, though it offers some nutrition as it slowly breaks down was an excellent compliment to the other two ingredients because it offered a filler that held about the same volume of water as the average between the Turface and granite, and because it was plentiful and cheap; plus, it fit the durability requirement better than any other commonly found organic component, as long as I limited the organic fraction (bark) to 1/3 of the whole or less. Each of the ingredients in the gritty mix is actually carefully chosen. Particle size, the ability to hold/not hold water, expense, availability (for me) were all carefully considered as I settled on the ingredients and ratio. I've been using the gritty mix for about 15 years, and haven't found a way to improve it yet. With the number of people I stay in contact with in the bonsai community, it's easy to imagine there were a lot of materials that could have been substituted for one of the 3 primary ingredients or added to the trio. Many were tried, then discounted, and I still prefer the equal parts of fir bark:Turface:grit to anything else. I guess to answer your question directly, about how long it took me to come up with the gritty mix, I'd say it was about 5 years before it came together, but I was still learning a lot in the first 4 years. As far as the gritty mix being perfect, it may not be, for everyone; but the nice thing about it is it's flexible/adjustable for different locales and plant material by simply changing the ratio of Turface:grit slightly. The same is basically true of the 5:1:1 mix - it's flexible. My interest in bonsai also sparked a keen interest in growing a wide variety of other plant material in containers. Since I recognized the difficulty presented by the high level of water retention in almost all from-the-bag soils, and I had already witnessed the superb results from the highly aerated gritty mix, not to mention the fact that the gritty mix is more expensive than bagged soils, it wasn't long before I was tinkering with pine bark, peat, and perlite. I saw that nurseries were growing woody material in mixes with pine bark, so I should be able to grow my veggies and pretty/flowery stuff in some sort of concoction with pine bark as the primary ingredient. Having already settled on the gritty mix, I knew just what I wanted to achieve with the 5:1:1 mix, so that was easy. A few years after I started using the 5:1:1 mix, I started sharing how well it works here. You might not believe me when I tell you that JaG was one of the loudest dissenters, and couldn't imagine how soils with that much air could possibly be better than from-the-bag soils. He'll tell you that himself, and mentions it frequently. (I miss his being around). It took a couple of years of often very strong debate before he tried it and saw there really was a stark difference in results between a highly aerated soils vs those heavier and water retentive. Now he's a strong proponent of highly aerated soils. I was actually afraid to tell the forum about the gritty mix, because it was such a radical departure from what everyone on this forum was used to growing in that not one person would ever have believed you could grow in a soil that was 2/3 gravel and 1/3 large bark chunks. Honestly - I had to wait until I had earned enough credibility before I could even tell you that I grow lots of perfectly healthy plants in the stuff. It's much easier to open minds when there is more than a singular voice crying in the wilderness. ;o) Let's see ...... what drew me here? I think it was originally because I was doing a LOT of searching for info on the internet and GW kept coming up. After a few hundred GW hits, I guess I started to explore and ended up joining. The bonsai forum wasn't much fun because there was (still is) constant fighting, so I ended up here. I had also joined several clubs, and had often been invited to talk about different aspects of gardening. I talk most often about soils and things related to container gardening, but I also do presentations about pruning and hormones, propagation, repotting ..... I do bonsai demos and lead various workshops, too. I look at all of that as a natural extension of my love for growing/nurturing plants, so I guess it's not so unusual that you have to put up with me here. Whew! That took a lot longer than I thought it would. It was a really, really hectic weekend, so it's time for bed. Thanks for your interest, Mike - if you're still awake. ;-) TTYL Al

Hi acg85 ...Welcome ! I am also a newbie when it comes to container growing. Because I am planning to do some container/pots planting , I have been educating myself in this forum. ABOUT COLORANTS: I think you are talking about colored mulch which may or may not be mad of pine. I have used them as landscaping mulch. If it is made of pine, it is shredded and made from pine branches and trunk that probably was not suitable for making lumber. Or can be made from the next layer under the bark. It can also be made similarly from cedar or other wood. They usually come in red and black color. Pine or fir BARKS are mostly bagged and sold uncolored. That is what they are using in 5: 1:1:and orchid potting mix ; ALL NATURAL PINE BARK (NUGGETS,)

I'm just musing here & not being snippy, but I think that the 5:1:1 mix performs significantly better than peat based soils, and remains structurally sound much longer (4-5 times longer, based on all other cultural conditions being equal). The gritty mix is even better, providing greater aeration and lasting indefinitely. I'm not saying that to promote what others refer to as 'Al's Soils', only to illustrate that soils that are highly aerated and structurally stable are much preferred to peat/coir/compost-based soils for the results oriented crowd. I'm able to say this based on the hundreds of people at GW and other sites that are using these soils and some fertilizer recommendations with a degree of success that has them saying they left soils like MG or other peat-based soils and will never look back. There is a crowd that wants to make things easier (these soils are much more forgiving and easier to grow in) and appreciates the idea that their plants are growing at closer to their genetic potential. Then, there is the group that feels that what they are using is 'good enough'. I have no quarrel with how folks establish their priorities, but what I usually hear, and what I'm hearing above is 'it's too much bother'. I never try to coax anyone to use "my" soils. I only point out the considerable benefits of higher aeration and greater durability and let others decide. I respect your decisions, but at the same time I can point to the fact that what's easier for the grower and what's better for the plant are often mutually exclusive. In this case, there is an inverse relationship between effort and results, but it's not as great as it seems. Yes, there is some effort involved in finding the ingredients and making the soil, but part of that effort is negated in the fact that healthier roots make healthier plants and healthy plants are less susceptible to insects and disease, and are more productive or prolific. Include the fact that root rot and soluble salts accumulation (especially for houseplants) is something you would have to work at to achieve, and you've got a pretty good case for abandoning the heavy soils. In the end, it always almost always distills to an individual decision. Is the perceived gain worth the perceived effort. Some answer with a resounding yes, and others are not so sure or unwilling to go through the trouble. I respect any one's decision because my part in trying to help folks ends with trying to provide the best science I can so they can make up their own minds. However, if the soils didn't work considerably better than conventional soils, I'd have been handed my head long ago. ;o) Take care. Al