Ugh...I used to volunteer at a Nursing Home years ago and I was struck by the irony of them denying patients things they desired under the supposition that some of those things might "harm" them and the desire to prolong their sometimes miserable lives. Things like salt on their food, or a beer on a hot day. And the lack of autonomy some people suffered because "family" wanted something different than the resident. I was never confident that the decisions being made by family were actually legally sanctioned - that the family actually had a legal right to make them instead of the resident. God help us all should we be in the same position someday.

You could ask with the resident’s family if they are familiar with the procedures, to clarify for you.

There are so many family-filed lawsuits against facilities if something happens to a resident, the staff feels like they need a thousand eyes on long tentacles to keep an eye on everyone. During spreading-illness phases at my parents’ facility when all residents needed to stay in their rooms, my mom stayed in the common area so that someone could see or hear her.

As to the beer etc, sometimes alcohol can interfere with the resident’s condition or medications, so I can see why they would not allow it. But on weekends, my husband would bring a couple of beers and beer glasses, and Dad’s favorite peanuts, and they’d spend a nice afternoon watching golf and talking. Kind of like Shawshank Redemption, that bit of normalcy. and the analogy is apt: everyone I know/knew in a facility, no matter how nice, called themselves and the other residents ”inmates”.

"As to the beer etc, sometimes alcohol can interfere with the resident’s condition or medications, so I can see why they would not allow it". That was my point exactly. If someone is at the end of their life and is competent to decide if they want to have a beer, even if it interferes with their 'life prolonging' medications, I don't think anyone has the right to deny them that. I think, we, as a culture, need to adjust our attitudes about such things and let people take some risks if it makes their last days/months/years better.

It's likely facilities have rules like that - complete prohibition - as a way to protect itself from lawsuits. Understandably so.

How can a facility determine if someone is competent enough to decide to drink alcohol? Who's responsible for reviewing the medications taken to ensure there are no conflicts? Who's responsible if the person falls or is otherwise injured, was the facility negligent? If these and other considerations are at stake, how can the facility protect itself in each and every case that the patient has reviewed what's necessary and assumes full personal responsibility for consequences?

It's not reasonable to expect that can or would be done, or that any facility would want to have such an avoidable burden to have to deal with.

Remind your grandchildren of their duty to care for their elders. This goes beyond the ministrations of a staff paid minimum wages... for often unpleasant work... with difficult people... including the residents and the penny-pinching conglomerates that own the 'homes'.

I'm not big on assigning duty to others but hope I have relationships that will carry me through to the end of life. You never know. I saw seemingly wonderful people in nursing homes whose families seldom if ever came. But we live in a world where families often don't live in proximity to each other. That's why I think a life rich with friends who DO live near you is really important. And a benefit of having friends that are younger than you is the probability that they will outlive you.

In this instance, I would've just taken the patient out without asking permission...easier to beg forgiveness. What are they going to do....charge you with kidnapping? It also sounds to me like the person you ran into was stressed and overworked and not looking for any pushback from anyone for anything. I'm sorry this happened. Perhaps the next time you can be prepared by talking to the family ahead of time about going outdoors.

Elmer, the nursing home my late stepdad lived in allowed the residents to drink alcohol as they wished, as long as they didn't so so to excess. When my stepdad passed I donated the remains of his stash towards the facility's Christmas party and it was gratefully accepted. The facility where my husband's now late uncle lived served wine with meals to those who wanted it, as I recall a party we had there for him in the common room where we were permitted to serve a range of alcohol, from wine and beer to spirits.

Jally, if you think that socialism = the system in the USSR, you're astoundingly ignorant. The system as it exists in the USSR is not socialist, and it's not even Communist, though it claims to be. It's an oligarchic dictatorship. Just remember, Jesus preached socialism :-)

colleenoz, are you describing a practice in Australia or in the US? Litigation rules and practices are not the same in each country. The US unfortunately still has runaway plaintiff injury lawsuits. Australia I believe much less so.

Last Feb--July my Mother-in-Law was in a skilled Nursing Facility mostly bed ridden sometimes in a wheel chair. She fell out of the wheel chair with an attendant next to her. If her flaky friend had taken her outside and she had fallen I would have been livid at the 'friend'. She also kept asking for help to get up and walk. That doesn't mean a visitor should have done so especially as it was physically impossible. And if flaky friend had been verbally abusive toward the staff who we depended on to take care of MIL--I would have requested friend no longer be allowed to visit.

My dad’s facility I mentioned above, where we brought alcohol, is in the US. and at my aunt’s they can bring in their own and have it at dinner, also in the US. A not for profit I know has a cocktail hour once a week. Naturally, they do not serve to residents whose medical instruction precludes alcohol.

I was speculating why that location could have the policy.

A few years ago I went to a holiday dinner at the senior residential facility one of the family oldsters lives at. Those in the dining room were probably half residents and half visitors (there were two seatings, like on a cruise).

Each table was provided a bottle of wine, the choice of red or white. Residents had to have a release on file for drinking on the premises - fortunately the person we were visiting didn't drink so there was a tad more for us.

OK, i know i said its rhetorical, but i need to clarify a few assumptions, and for the record, i'm too weary to set straight any potential future assumptions. Suffice there are too many nuances in real-life which are beyond the scope of easy posting. I deeply thank all of you who respond sympathetically and with stories of your own, realizing the myriad nuances of real-life.

First of all, said honcho has been mean in the past, it wasn't just this issue (also, btw, Ms.LBD's son is often absentee, let alone ask his aloof personality to sign a document enabling me to do heavy-duty services for his mom, for crying out loud)

Secondly, all she really had to say was "Go to Jane Doe (the rec. gal who is officially/legally allowed to wheel patients to the yard, and routinely does so) and tell her I asked for her to wheel LBD-resident outside".

Thirdly, i felt i had no choice but to ask permission, because in the past, we went once to the rec. room to play a song for a particular lovely patient, at which time, one of the aides came marching in and gave an extensive lecture as to why we didn't report to the nurses' desk to say where we were going. (Yep, it was "we" because another resident who for sure has ADHD probably was the one who came up with the idea of going there in the first place, and boy, did she cuss out that aide. She fears nothing and no-one, regardless how much her behavior provokes others).

Fourthly there was the time i'd phoned an outside ambulance when it looked like a resident had trouble breathing and nobody was helping her. When i had told the nurse i think she needs a doctor, she labelled me as a meddler. To say they were livid that i'd phoned an outside med.service is putting it mildly. That's why at this time i didn't dare wheel her out without asking.

That home has an overall oppressive atmosphere (i.e. most, though not all, of the staff are intimidating). As for socialism/communism semantics, IIsaam was on target about this turning political. Who feels like playing semantic games? It simply boils down to a group of "unkind tyrants" among whom are sprinkled a few decent/rational ones. Jane Doe lecturing me against calling Ms. LBD "depressed" was stark-raving-irrational LUNACY (legalities notwithstanding!) If tyrants aren't called out the way i did with her, society will descend into an ever more downward spiral, because narcs are rampant nowadays - see: https://bigthink.com/personal-growth/your-culture-affects-how-narcissistic-you-are/. In a way, however much trouble ADHD residents are (like the one who cussed out that aide) they also tend to diffuse overly oppressive setups, because they fight fire with fire. I.E. they don't shy from going to bat for abused fellow residents.

Elmer, fortunately in Australia we haven't yet developed the practice of suing for anything and everything at the drop of a hat, though it is on the rise. These nursing homes were here in Australia.

One of the things I am most grateful for is that neither of my now deceased parents ever ended up in a nursing home. My dad was able to care for my mom until the end. Then I kept my dad in his own home as long as was possible. From there he went into a small adult care home that looked like a nice BnB.

He hated it, of course. But they did a fabulous job. Visitors were welcome at any time, no rules that I ever saw, my Dad was given his beloved can of beer every night with dinner.

It cost a small fortune every month. I am also grateful that he peacefully passed away before his money ran out. I was actually researching medicaid paid nursing homes because he was within a year of being broke. The thought of having to move him into one of those places made me ill.

"Remind your grandchildren of their duty to care for their elders."

Wow! 😡

chisue, I realize that for some that what I'm about to say isn't feasible under their circumstances, but I think the duty goes in the other direction. Loving parents and grandparents who don't want to unduly burden their offspring have a duty to make sure that they have a plan or the means to care for themselves.

I have to agree with Angelaid and Elmer on this one. I don't think anyone should put that kind of pressure on your own children. It's fundamentally unfair.

I know people who openly said that the only reason they had children was so that said children would take care of them in their old age. I just can't imagine the kind of pressure that puts on those people. Living your whole life knowing you were created to be your parents' caretaker....

Anyone who doesn't know that the person in a 'facility' is captive hasn't thought about the dynamics. Family (or friends who are like family, especially those with legal standing) are absolutely necessary to the safety and well-being of residents.

Staff controls *everything*. Any complaint is liable to be revenged. Petty gossip among the residents runs wild. Think of a large family competing for status and favor.

I'm not saying one's children or grandchildren must pay the freight -- not at all -- but someone must be willing to monitor the situation.

Chisue, there are many people whose children live far away, with jobs and children to raise. There is no practial way for them to monitor or be responsible.. There are elders with unwell children, children who died before them, those with no children. Or just plain crummy children who won’t lift a finger. There are lots of people who were crummy parents, or abusive parents who have no right to expect anything.

" there are many people whose children live far away, with jobs and children to raise "

This is a common situation with a simple solution I've seen done very many times. A parent still able to live on their own but for whom living at a distance from all family member is not the best idea can move closer to where family members are located.

There are several regular participants in this thread have done just that. No reason to pretend it's a conundrum.

Yes, there are parents with crummy children and children with crummy parents. You sleep in the bed you make. I think most people don't have lives or relationships described in that way. Years of broken or dysfunctional relationships are unlikely to change magically just because one or the other has a need. Back to, you sleep in the bed you make.

Edit to add- word above should be forum not threaf

Or parents who refuse to admit they have to move from all that is familiar to them and any friends they have left in the world. It is an appalling issue that has no easy answer.

Some people just accept reality and some do not.

You need someone who cares to interact with the nursing home people who will on average do a better job for people with family who keep an eye on them. That is reality. Do you give up everything you have known for that or do you just think maybe it is my time. It is not easy.

I spent several weeks in a nursing home last year. It was interesting. I am awake and aware so I can judge. Fuzzy ill people not so much. Frankly I cant imagine being in their hands without someone to advocate for me. It wasn't that no one cared but there are too many people to care about. My favorite people were on contract from of all places Kenya. They were wonderful.

People end up in situations that are unplanned, people have rich, rewarding lives and relationships, homes and communities they love. Giving all that up in order to move closer to s child doesn’t work for everyone and certainly doesn’t change the fact that children could have full time jobs they need to keep to survive, children to raise, which can be another full time job, a marriage to maintain, maybe their own health problems - all of which may preclude taking on the responsibility for an ill parent. Plus, in many circumstances the parent may be unable to travel. Add to that the real possibility that the child or their spouse may need to relocate again, leaving the parent in a new community without the support and friendships they left behind.

How about all the parents who move to Florida or Arizona away from their children? Yeah, lots are coming back north after the bad weather, but many fall ill and then then the adult children are faced with moving the now ill or incapacitated parents back. That's not pretty. (Long before climate change made Arizona into an oven and Florida into a wind tunnel, this was true.)

Setting aside 'other people' unable to care for themselves...what are your plans for yourself?

When did the tending of the elderly become such a (hugely profitable) business? Is this unique to the US?

I am lucky to have enough money to be able to afford to pay for private care. I have an explicit Durable Power of Attorney given to a dear friend, with back up people named, with instructions for NO extraordinary measures and a DNR document. If I am able and become terminal with something that just prolongs suffering, I will invoke our state’s Death with Dignity option and end my life. I have agreat circle of family and friends whom I trust will do whatever is needed. I’ve made arrangements for my cremation and for my ashes to be scattered on a friend’s gorgeous horse farm. My will is up to date. So I think I’m set.

" When did the tending of the elderly become such a (hugely profitable) business? "

Two part reply.

First - If no longer the case currently in your family, as it no longer is in mine, older family members lived with and were taken care of by younger generations. As was the case for your and my ancestors and is still often the case for people of limited means with family members who can help. In both cases, the elderly live(d) in a relative's home until their health status made that no longer feasible. For people who can afford it, there are senior facilities to provide care and avoid burdening family members. I have no answer what people do who live alone and have no family to help do. My wife has a longtime friend who's spent most of her life as a single adult and has mostly no family that she's close with. What she will do in her declining years is a good question and one I suspect she has not addressed.

Edit to add - multi-generational homes remain very much the practice for many more recent immigrants of Asian ethnicities, no matter what the family's collective economic status is.

Second - For too many people, sometimes people who should know better and also others, accusing an activity or organization of being profit-driven or motivated is done as a pejorative, expressing some degree of contempt and disapproval.

Here's reality - profitable businesses and successful non-profits that collect more than they spend can provide goods and services for those wanting them and can also give jobs to people who do the work to accomplish what the mission is. Unprofitable businesses and unsuccessful non-profits go out of existence. No services are provided and no one has a job.

Which scenario is better?